Perplexed Newbie

[GareyD]

Hello to everyone.

I'm a newbie to the board and have read all the posts back to page 100 of I believe 132 pages and still haven't found the answer to my question.

Filled out my profile...but...a little more history.  The only sawing I have done or been around was when I helped my Grandfather/Uncle about 35 years with their old Belsaw...and...when I hired a sawyer with a WM about 5 years ago (He rode the seat, I did the off loading/stacking)...so I can't say that I am very knowledgable.

I'm wanting to do the usual...clear about 6 acres to enlarge my pasture, and saw the timber into lumber for a barn and outbuildings. Plus I have 4 neighbors that are wanting me to do the same for them...already have work and I just mentioned I was thinking about getting a mill!!!

Now for the question...not knowing what I really need, I have pretty much narrowed my search down to 2 saws I have found locally that are within my price range of less than $10,000 and have the features I think I'll need.

My problem is one is a bandmilll and the other is a double cut...how do I ask which one everyone would reccomend for my needs with out starting WW1,000,003...

Should I ask in two seperate posts...or should I just throw it out in a reply to this post and duck??? ???

Ya'll seem like a great bunch of people...hope I don't start out here on the wrong foot  

GareyD

[chet]

No wars here. We are a pretty mild bunch, unless yur talkin' food. ;D
GareyD, the best thing would be to see if the mills you are looking at, are being run. Then just offer to be some free help for a couple of days. OH and Welcome aboard.  

[Brad_S.]

GareyD,

I say toss it out here like a hand grenade, then duck and cover.  :D   Wait for the smoke to clear and take the tid-bits that fit your needs.
Let us know the quantity of logs, their sizes, and the two mills your looking at.
This should be fun! 8) 8) 8)

[Furby]

Well ya must have been reading for a while, seeing how we's up to 150 pages now. ;D

I'm with Brad, leave it in one thread and let them duke it out. ;)
Just take what ya need. ;D

Oooops, almost forgot..................Welcome!!!

[WoodSmith]

Go with the bandsaw

[sigidi]

GareyD,

welcome, welcome, welcome...

depends totally on what ya have to mill and what ya want to cut out of em...

Let us know some more of what ya intentions are (honourable of course ;)) then I'm sure you'll get more 'help' than ya need :D ;D

[customsawyer]

First of all welcome GareyD.
Glad to see another bulldog on here. Let us know what types of mills you are looking at and what you plan to saw and I am sure you will get more replies than you know what to do with, this might be one of them :D. You might check with WM over in Newnan, Ga. they had a nice little used mill down at the show in Moultrie think they were asking $14,000 for it, might be gone already, but it don't hurt to ask. If you need any help getting it set up let me know and I'll come running.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  The best advice has been given.  Get with the owners and see if you can work for them one day for free.  If they are not using the mills any more there must be a reason.  Call the manufactors and see if they have owners of the same type mills in the area that you can go see.
  Come to Arkansas for a day of ARKY 101 sawing class and learn alot about band mills and sawing.  
  The band mill will be more usable as far as the different things you will be sawing.  If you are going to spit out mostly framing stock then the double cut will work fine.  Also look at how portable they really are.  I can set up my WM in less then 5 min and be gone in 3.
ARKANSAWYER

[Tom]

You will notice that Double Cut as well as several bandmills are sponser's on the forum.  If you have technical questions you should be able to get them answered easily.

Mobile Dimension is also a mill much like Double Cut and we have sawyers operating them as well.

There is a world of difference in the circle and band mills.  Both have good and lesser good points.  Generally the portable circle mills cut framing and narrower sheeting like a banshee but it takse extra effort to saw wide boards.  Bandmills saw boards as wide as their throat will allow.  Much of the rest is personal preference.

The most important thing you can buy is the customer service of the manufacturer.

[Brad_S.]

If money were no object, I'd have both. ;D
I agree double cuts turn out framing material like nobody's business, but grade sawing is the band saws arena. It also takes pretty fair sized logs to be truly practical on a DC. Then too, swingers are laughing at the thread about having to saw oversize logs down to fit a bandmill. :D
And I agree with Tom, service availability is key. I live 40 miles from my manufacturer, so when I have problems I just go there and whine and get instant solutions. This is great for me but I don't know about them! :D   If I had to work out things with a manufacturer a thousand miles away or who doesn't have satelite branches, I imagine it could be frustrating.

[Jeff]

No battles on the Forestry forum. Anybody that tells ya different aint been here long enough to find out what happens if they try. ;D

You will get good and knowlegable answers from all sides. Dont listen to anyone that tells you this IS WHAT YOU NEED, because only you will know that after you have weighed your questions and situation to the answers and information. Dont be afraid to ask question after question. We dont care if its been asked before, it wasnt asked by you and we will be glad to answer if we can. There are thousands of years of milling experience here.

[GareyD]

Gentlemen...I want a good clean fight....please retire to your corners and when the bell rings, come out fighting ;D

I haven't personally seen either one of these saws...A local D&L dealer has the double cut style...the bandmill I have only seen on the web...both are within 90 miles of me and I hope to be able to "hands on" both of them within the next couple of weeks. This is why I am asking these questions now.

Most of the logs that I expect to be cutting look to average in the 20" range...not a lot of huge logs on mine or the neighbors land.

The Double cut saw I am looking at is a Mighty Mite H412...late "70's - Early 80"s model...price is $6,800

Mighty Mite

As I primarily want dimension lumber at this time....I don't see the 4"x12" limit being a problem...I"m figuring on pretty much working solo after the novelty wears off, and I like the idea of standing in one place and having the mill bring me the lumber...is this on the right track??

The bandmill is a new Southern Bandsaw Model C with 20 hp and all options for $9,500.

Southern Bandsaw

Model "C"  Standard
*Maximum Dia. Log - 35" *Maximum Square Cut- 28 in. Sq.
*Maximum Cut - 21 ft. Length *Total Frame Length - 24 ft.
*18 Hp. Electric Start Briggs Industrial Engine Std.
*Two Sets of Log Dogs *4 Leveling Screw Jacks*
*4 Corner Post Adjusters *Last Board Minimum Cut 1in. Thickness
*Tow Bar and Single Axle *P205/75R15 Tires Std.
*3 X 6 Rect. Steel Tubing Frame
*Ball Bearing Blade Guide *Fully Adjustable Blade Guide
Options Available
*20 Hp. Briggs Engine - 12 Volt Electric Log Winch & Rail Skids  -  
*12 Volt Electric Forward/Reverse & Up/Down Saw Head Travel.

On the bandmill I like the trailer package and the ability to cut about any size that the log is capable of....as far as working alone, I guess if it get to be too much work I could always hire me one of  my buddy's teenage boys.

If you was me...which one would you buy and what would be your reasons??...I would really like to know the right questions to ask when I am on site with both of these mills.

Gareyd

[GareyD]

Come to Arkansas for a day of ARKY 101 sawing class and learn alot about band mills and sawing.  

Well, if you're serious, I just might take you up on that offer...Been to Bruno several times in my misspent youth...I grew up in Green Forest, still have a Mom and Brother up there I visit a couple of times a year...Dad's family is from Bergman, and Mom's is from Snowball...Mom has kin all over Newton County...met a few, and kinda cautious about meeting too many more...If they don't recognize ya, them good ole' boys tend to shoot first - then go see who was messing round their copper contrivances and whacky plant places ;D

Outta be up around there during the holidays...maybe we can get together!!

GareyD

[Bro. Noble]

We have a bandsaw and it seems to me that they have the advantage in cutting hardwood grade lumber.  I think if I were going to cut mostly deminsion lumber,  I'd go for the doublecut.

[oakiemac]

GaryD,
I have a Mobile Dimension which is similar to the D&L doublecut and to the Mighty Mite type saws. My opinion is that if you are cutting framing stock and dimensional lumber it is a no brainer to go with the MD cut type saw. Mine has 3 blades that all cut in unisone so that every board is perfectly edged as it comes off the mill. It is easy to 2X4's then switch to 1X's or 4X's ect.
If cutting grade lumber then my opinion is to still look closely at the MD type saws. The band mill guys think that they are the only ones that can cut grade (sorry for opening this can) but they are wrong. I over run the log scale about the same as a band mill. For example-this week I sawed for a guy that actully works a saw mill as a timber buyer so he knows his way around log scales and he has also hired other sawyers in the past with band mills. He scaled all the logs and was very satisfied with the over run that I was getting.
Having said this, I will say that band mills have certain advantages and I some times wish I had one. It would be great to actually have both type millls.
The best advice was to actually operate them both and make an informed decision.

[DanG]

Welcome Gary!  Good to see another southern guy in here.

Oakiemac pretty much summed up what I was gonna say. I'll just add what I have found by sawing in the same part of the country you live in.  After these places are cleared, you are going to still have a mill, so you gotta plan how you want to use it in the future.  I get a lot of pine, usually stuff that has been down for a while. As you can see in recent threads, this stuff gives a bandmill fits. My Mobile Dimension Saw handles it very well, and is less labor intensive to use. Operation of the saw is so simple that I can concentrate on the log and how to saw it.  On the other hand, the 4x12 limitation is a bit of a handicap at times. MD has an option that I can add, that will raise the horizontal limit to 8". I don't know if Mighty Mite has that or not.

I've been impressed with the Southern Saw for it's simplicity. Almost everything on it can be bought at the local hardware or auto parts store.

It sounds as if you're talking with Ron Rogers about that MM. If so, you've got all the tech support you will ever need. He really knows his stuff and is very free with his knowledge.

As others have said, I'd love to have a bandmill, but wouldn't give up my MD for it. I'd like to have a swinger also. All 3 types have a place and you can do all you need to do, with any of them.

Keep asking questions and we'll try to give you what you need to make your decision.

[rebocardo]

If you are clearing 6+ acres of wood, my first thought would be how are you going to load the logs, mostly by yourself? If so, which mill will be more amendable to working by yourself and log loading.

Loading even a  12" x 16' log can be a chore and when you start using logs up near 24" in width the log weight is basically 4x as much as a 12" log.

So, I would start with how I am going to move and load logs, off load the cut wood, and rotate the log, and then pick my mill based on that.

[Grawulf]

Hi Gary and welcome!
I have a Southern Model A with a hydraulic feed and centrifugal clutch on a 20 horse Vanguard and it handles anything I put to it. The nice thing about the machine is that practically every part can be replaced by going to your local hardware. The blade guides could be made a little differently but they do work - the mill overall seems to be very forgiving if your setup isn't exactly right - it cuts good straight lumber with a good sharp blade. Would be nice to have a hydraulic loader but my back's still in good shape and that's what they make cant hooks for!  ;D  Granted, it's a RED machine and maybe slower than a WM but I'm happy with mine. 8) That 21' length of the C model would be handy though. Mine will only do 16' 3".  Grawulf

[customsawyer]

I agree with most of what has been posted this far.
Would like to extend Arky's invitation a little bit closer to home. If you would like a crash course on sawmilling 101 come on down to Dublin, Ga. and I'll fix you right up. If you would just like to see a WM operate go over to Newnan and talk to Earl he is a very good sawyer and knows all there equipment inside and out. Just keep asking questions, best of luck.

[GareyD]

Thanks to all who have replied so far...really appreciate all the help and the "family" feelin a feller could get hanging out around here....all that's missing is the "barley pop" and woodstove  ;D

It sounds as if you're talking with Ron Rogers about that MM. If so, you've got all the tech support you will ever need. He really knows his stuff and is very free with his knowledge

DanG, you are right on the money there..actually went to Ron's place to look at the swing mill he somehow happened to acquire at the expo...decided that at 50 years and almost as many extra pounds...that model saw wasn't for me.. :D

Ron called me about 30 minutes ago...sez he just got in from pickin up that MM...sez by  the blades and it's looks  he don't think it has been hard used at all...it's got the 60 sumpin HP Industrial Volkswagen on it...started right off and he made a couple of cuts on it.

About what is the smallest dia. you can cut on a mill like this???

[GareyD]

If you are clearing 6+ acres of wood, my first thought would be how are you going to load the logs, mostly by yourself? If so, which mill will be more amendable to working by yourself and log loading.

Loading even a  12" x 16' log can be a chore and when you start using logs up near 24" in width the log weight is basically 4x as much as a 12" log.

So, I would start with how I am going to move and load logs, off load the cut wood, and rotate the log, and then pick my mill based on that.

 

Appreciate the thought...between my neighbors and all the equipment and junk I have around here, I can handle 3,000 lbs without breaking a sweat...

GareyD

[GareyD]

Hi Gary and welcome!
I have a Southern Model A with a hydraulic feed and centrifugal clutch on a 20 horse Vanguard and it handles anything I put to it. The nice thing about the machine is that practically every part can be replaced by going to your local hardware. The blade guides could be made a little differently but they do work - the mill overall seems to be very forgiving if your setup isn't exactly right - it cuts good straight lumber with a good sharp blade. Would be nice to have a hydraulic loader but my back's still in good shape and that's what they make cant hooks for!  ;D  Granted, it's a RED machine and maybe slower than a WM but I'm happy with mine. 8) That 21' length of the C model would be handy though. Mine will only do 16' 3".  Grawulf

Appreciate the reply...hoping to get to see one in action later in the week

GareyD

[GareyD]

I agree with most of what has been posted this far.
Would like to extend Arky's invitation a little bit closer to home. If you would like a crash course on sawmilling 101 come on down to Dublin, Ga. and I'll fix you right up. If you would just like to see a WM operate go over to Newnan and talk to Earl he is a very good sawyer and knows all there equipment inside and out. Just keep asking questions, best of luck.

I really appreciate the invite, will probably take you up on that one of these first days....need to get down to Dublin in the next couple of months....We lived and farmed in Dublin for about 11 years, between Dexter and Dudley just south of the Mushroom plant...Ran the farm and managed al the land for Dr. JY Jones (great guy)...held a lot of trials for the National Birdhunters and had the finals for 3 years out there...finally starved out tryin to farm and had to move closer to Atlanta where the money was  

[DanG]

Garey, I regularly put on 6" pine peckerpoles and take a 4x4 out of the middle. Anything smaller than that is pretty much a waste of time unless it's some real special stuff.

My personal call would be to jump on that MM, if you're not looking to cut a lot of high-grade hardwoods.  For pine dimension lumber, it's gonna be hard to beat at that price.

Here's a bit of what I was doing this afternoon on my MD:



This here is a bandmill's worst nightmare. Big knots and lots of taper.  This is the top "log" from a longleaf pine.  The top end was showing 3 separate hearts.




This is what I got out of it.




This is what was left.  The slab looks fat, but the log had an inverse "belly", so the thinnest part was less than an inch thick.

[GareyD]

DanG

Really appreciate the answers....ya bout got me leanin' a little over 45 degrees towards the MM saw  ;)

Now I realize yer a busy man, but if ya get a minute, could ya kinda do me (and anyone else interested) a quick pictorial on how ya open and saw a log with yer saw....and maybe a shot of how ya got the bottom and the dogs set up on it too!!!

The way I got it figured...ya open the top with the horizontal blade...then rip the side off with the vertical blade...then ya gets a board slung back at ya everytime ya go thru the log after that...all ya end up with is that "L" shaped slab that I saw sittin on yer deck...and ya never hafta turn the log...am I thinking this thru straight  ??? ??? ???

Fer doing this and to sweeten this deal just a little...I hereby offer to send ya 5 lbs of my homegrown - home ground grits ....and an equal batch of my homegrown - home ground popcorn meal (it ain't white meal like my mamma always used...but it is sweeter and has a better taste IMHO)  ;D ;D ;D

GareyD

[DanG]

Well, ya got me interest piqued with the grits and meal thing. I gotta hear more about that. ;D

You got it eggzackly right, on that particular log. I just skimmed the top off and then cut it through and through.  Other logs is different, and I saw each one according to what I want out of it, and what it offers me.  Now, if that log had been round and straight, I would've opened a 4" face on the left side, to start with. Then, I'd set the upper edger to the top of the face and take a 1x4. Next, I'd drop till the bottom edger is at the lower edge of that face, set the top edger to the top of the face, and take a 1x whatever. Repeat until past the center and the log gets narrower, where I start raising the mill and lowering the upper edger at every cut. Then I end up with a stepped L-shaped slab.




Other times, I might take the first board from a face opened on the top, depending on the log, and what I want from it.

Tom visited me a while back, and took pics of my dogging system, which is standard MD. I'll see if I can dig up that thread for ya.

[Ianab]

Hi Garey

I run a swingblade mill, of the 'keep fit' type  :D
The operation is very similar to the DoubleCut type mills, we just use one blade to achieve the same result.
You have got the general idea of the mills operation. The log is set up on bunks and secured with clamps or wedges. There is little force on the log as it's being cut so it doesn't take a lot to keep it in place. Taper can be adjusted for to centre the pith or saw parrallel with the best face buy adjusting the height of one bunk. The log usually is not moved during the sawing process.
As you guessed the first cut is to take off the top slab. I usually just skim the bare minimum off the top and then cut some stickers from the top of the log untill I get into the meaty part of the log. You need to cut stickers from something so the top slab is a good as anything. Once the log is opened you can either cut horizontal or vertical boards from the top 3rd of the log, depending on wether you are flat sawing or quarter sawing. The middle 3rd of the log is cut in the opposite dimension, or the heart can be centered in a post or sleeper... or whatever option you want. Cut a few more boards from the bottom slab and you are done.
That ugly log DanG showed didn't have any more boards in the bottom slab because of it's coke bottle shape, otherwise he would have sawn a couple more flat boards off the bottom.

Try and see the different mills operating so you can figure what is best for your operation. I see you have machinery to handle the logs so thats a big plus whatever mill you end up with.

ian

[Arthur]

GareyD

If you are near a D&L dealer give them a call.  D&L has become our distributor/manufacture of the EcoSaw for North America and currently has one of our swingers doing the rounds of their dealers.

You could always call Lndsay at D&L to find out when the mill will be in your area.  They may let you have a play.
 8)

[Tom]

Here is The thread of the visit to DanG's.
https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=general;action=display;num=1083033037;start=0

[ARKANSAWYER]

  YOU BET!   If you come up this way by all means come on by.  My Sister lives in Bergman.   I will even let you saw with "Wanda" and see what a real pecker wood sawmill operation looks like.
ARKANSAWYER

[customsawyer]

Hey the price of your 101 lesson just went up to one bag each of grits and meal. :D

[GareyD]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to reply to everyone...I've been real busy the last couple of days moving and installing my Mighty Mite Mill.



This picture is just after unloading it from the truck and getting it on the legs.



Maybe after a couple of logs, the blade will shine up a little   ;D



It's a little hard to tell from this picture...there is 33 inches of drop from the right front leg to the left rear leg...the only flat place I have on my land is by the lake, and is prone to be 3-4 foot underwater a couple of times a year  :( ....so I hafta put the mill up on the hillside....gotta move in some dirt and finish leveling before I can set the log bunks.

Hopefully it will stop raining soon and I can get the setup finished and start makin' some sawdust...and then fellers...I'm sure the questions will come fast and furious...

GareyD

[Ianab]

Good stuff there Garey
Looks like you wont have to drag the logs very far? :D

Ian

[DanG]

Well AWWWRIGHT Garey! 8) 8)  From the pics, I'd say you got yourself a deal.

Lindsay Flett promised to let me know when he'll be down at Ron's place for a Demo Day. You should come over for it, too. I'm sure we can both learn a lot from those guys, and may have a little input for them, too.

Keep us posted on yer progress. ;D