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New Experiment

Started by YellowHammer, June 19, 2016, 10:44:42 PM

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xlogger

Quote from: YellowHammer on October 10, 2016, 11:31:15 PM
Wow, THESE pictures are all eye catchers.  You guys have just about talked me into cutting more than just slabs, maybe some 4\4 boards.  But now it's cooling down into Fall, and my pile of pine logs isn't bluing anymore, and I'm selling it faster than I can age it.  Time to get a load ready to be steam bathed in a kiln. I'm wondering if I overloaded my solar kiln with pine, shut all the vents, and let if cook, how well it would work, or if I should stick with the Nyle.  I'm also wondering how deep the sticker stain might go, or if I should dead stack it in the kiln?
I'm having a hard time reading the pamphlet on your last post. But is bluing like we see on pine killed by beetles the same as mold like I had on my pine by overloading the kiln? More looking black than blue.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

YellowHammer

Sorry I can't get a higher resolution image of the pamphlet, I'll try something else.  Here is a picture of the part specifically on blue stain.


As it says, the "primary difference between molding and staining is on the depth of the discoloration.  Typical sap stain or blue stain penetrates deeply into the sapwood and cannot be removed by surfacing or chemical cleaners."

So the question would be, by your results, does the mold go deeply into the sapwood, or is it just a surface discoloration?  Many of the harmful molds flourish in colonies on the moist or wet surfaces of the lumber, and do not recognize the boundaries of sapwood and heartwood.  The sap stain wood I've been making has a very clear boundary between sapwood and heartwood, and is one of the reasons it sells so well. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Darrel

I've been cutting fire killed Ponderosa pine with quite a bit of blue stain and as you will see some also has a whole lot of worm holes.  People really like this stuff.


Blue with worm habitat.


A woodshed.


Sap wood stained, heart wood not stained.


This is going to be a table.  Note that it also has brown stain.  Is it also caused by a fungus?  I hosed it down to bring out the color.

1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

WDH

I have had some issues with one of my pine plantations.  The stand is 30 years old and the trees are dying.  I believe that they have annosum root rot, which is caused by the fungus fomes annosus.  The fungus weakens the trees by infecting the roots, the bark beetles sense that the tree is weak and defenseless, and they bore into the inner bark, and this combo of bark beetles and root rot kills the tree.  The drought that we experienced this summer just supercharged the process.  This stand is 10 acres, and so many trees were dying that I had to take action.  The only viable coarse of action was to clearcut the stand. 

The logger moved in this week and harvested all the green trees.  I marked out 67 of the dying and dead trees to salvage and saw on my mill as blue pine.  Once the bark beetles attack the tree, the opportunistic ambrosia beetles also attack the dying tree and bring in the blue stain fungus which ultimately stains the wood as the decay process begins.  I got permission from the pulpmill that I worked at for years to take the dead trees that were still solid and sound.  All told, this 10 acre site produced 38 loads of timber.  About 2 loads that I had previously salvaged, the 2 loads that I marked to keep, 23 loads of pine sawtimber, and 11 loads of pine pulpwood. 

Here is a pic of the stand after a burn in 2009, 7 years before this harvest.



 

Here is a pic where all the green trees had been felled leaving the dead ones standing.



 

Here is a pic of the landing where the wood will be loaded.  You can see some of the standing dead trees in the background.



 

Here is a pic of part of the site after harvest.  The trees lying in the foreground are some of the ones that I marked to saw for blue pine.



  

The only good thing about this is that there will be about 12,000 bf of blue pine for me to saw if I am able to saw it all up before it goes bad.  It is also fortunate that it is cooling off, and the breakdown process in the wood will slow considerably in the winter.  I plan to replant the site. 

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Thanks for documenting that, WDH. Are you going to replant it with pine? I was wondering if you need to treat the soil somehow to get rid of that pesky disease? Or possibly replant with a different species?
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

OneWithWood

Waste not, want not.
Sounds like you have a plan.  No surprise there!
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Darrel

Question. Does the soil need to be treated to kill the fungus before replanting?
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

scleigh

Danny, I know it was hard for you to see those trees go. If you need any help milling the blue stain logs let me know, I'd be glad to help.

xlogger

I know you hated to cut them this early, sorry for that for you. I remember back in the 70's when the southern pine beetle hit NC hard lots of land owners lost lots of money on their pine timber. I was running a pulpwood yard and we where cutting some big nice pines into pulpwood and could not keep up with the dying ones.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Peter Drouin

12,000 bf of blue pine is a lot of blue lumber. Good you can sell it. Up here it would be chips.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

YellowHammer

Quote from: Okrafarmer on October 22, 2016, 09:19:55 AM
Thanks for documenting that, WDH. Are you going to replant it with pine? I was wondering if you need to treat the soil somehow to get rid of that pesky disease? Or possibly replant with a different species?
Yes, is this now a systemic situation where you can't replant pine?
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

thecfarm

Nice Experiment pictures.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

WDH

There is no way to economically treat the soil.  The plan is to let the site lay and let the roots rot out until the early part of 2018, then I will replant with pine. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

4x4American

It's too bad you had to clearcut it, but it was for a good reason.  If it's by a main road, some folks might like to read a sign that explains why it had to be clearcut.  There was some clearcutting done for some reason around CNY somewhere on some random backroad, and they put a big old sign by the road explaining it and I had stopped and read it and thought it was cool that they cared to explain the situation to the passers by.
Boy, back in my day..

WDH

Not in sight of the road.  Clearcutting pine stands is very common around here. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

caveman

Wdh, do you wait a year or so before you replant?  I have read that applying Borax to fresh cut stumps will help prevent annosum but I doubt that would be effective if the fungus is already present. That was a good looking and fast growing stand of loblollies. I need to send you some vials to collect some insect specimens. Good luck with the denim pine.
Caveman

WDH

Yes, I will let it lay out from now till January or February 2018 before replanting.  This particular seed source is having a lot of root rot problems after the trees reach age 25 on many stands in this area.  Other seed sources are not seeing the problem.  I suspect this seed source has a genetic predilection for annosum root rot.  I will use a different seed source for the seedlings when I replant. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

INdeed, the fungus is not rare, but for some reason, we do see fungi or bacteria or viruses all of a sudden pop up in an environment and do damage.  We do not know the triggers, but for pines, plantations seem most susceptible.  Genetics seems to be involved, and environmental factors, but it still remains an unknown why some pathogen that is living at a low level all of sudden is triggered and explodes.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

WDH

Here is part of my stash of blue pine logs that I had the logger leave for me after the harvest.  He left 67 trees, each 32' to 42' long to a 8" to 10" top.



 

I have two orders for it pending, a total of about 1300 bf. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

caveman

It looks like the logger did a real neat job and left you a nice slash pile to burn when the weather is more conducive to burning safely.
Caveman

WDH

This is the job my logger did to pile the slash to make the site prep easier.  This is one reason that Hill Logging is among the very best in the South and why it can take 2 years to get on their harvest schedule. 



 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

How are you going to handle the supply of logs?  That looks like a lot of sawing.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Peter Drouin

Nice WDH, But why not have the logger put the logs in a pile to make easier for you? Or at least in one spot.
Are you going to burn the slash?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

WDH

Robert,

Probably about 225 10' logs.  I estimate between 12,000 and 15,000 BF.  That is the equivalent of about 2 tractor trailer loads.  They would not go to the sawmill because the bark was falling off, so they would have been hauled to the puplmill.  Value to me would have been 28 tons/load x $12 per ton stumpage x 2 loads = $672.  I knew that I would make more off the logs by sawing them and selling the blue pine lumber.  In fact, I have two standing orders.  One at $1400 that is about 900 bf to restore an old barn.  8 beams and the rest live edge 4/4.  Green off the saw, no sticker stacking or drying on my part.  The other is for finished paneling for a church rec room.  About 850 BF for $3000.  It has to be edged, stickered, kiln dried, planed, jointed and ripped to width.  So that is $4400 potential cash flow versus $672, and I will still have 85% of the log volume left. 

I plan to saw as much of it as I can and sticker it on pallets to air dry and sell it out of reserve.  I will saw some 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 9/4.  I will saw some 4" beams.  I might even saw out some 6" and 8" beams.  If I were to be able to recover 75% of the log volume before the wood gets too far gone, I would have the potential to make a cash flow from these logs, in total, of about $25,000 to $30,000 as specialty blue pine.  Those 2 loads could bring me more than the entire volume of the 34 loads hauled to the sawmill and pulpmill as stumpage.  Even if I only get half of that, I am way ahead if I can market the wood as blue pine for a premium over regular barn pine.

This could supply me with blue pine for a very good while to come.  I will just saw and sticker it and put it under the air drying sheds and dry and sell it as I get orders.  Probably will step up the marketing focus, too.

Peter,

Easier for me to top the logs, access them, load them on my trailer, and haul them 1 mile to my sawmill than have them all in one big pile.  The logger just felled and staged the trees for me as I had to top them to my specs.  I do not have the equipment to unload a semi-load, and here in the deep South, there are no self-loading, self-unloading trucks like you have.  I will haul them over about 1,000 bf at a time and saw them as soon as I can.   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

xlogger

Well Danny I guess you don't have to worry about what you are going to do in the next couple weeks :D
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

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