Seeking advice about logging out my property to clear land for pasture.

[Boatskipper]

Hello everyone. I joined this forum after a google search because I really need some advice as I have no clue who to talk to for advice about this.

I bought 25 acres of land last year and we just finished building a house on it. About 15 acres remains heavily wooded (and I mean heavily wooded). The land was neglected for decades before we bought it and it is completely overgrown, we want to clear out 10 acres out of the 15 wooded to run cattle and have a couple of horses. As thick as the timber and brush is now you can't even drive a four wheeler through it. Right now the timber is mostly hardwoods and a few cedar, but no pine.

Initially I started getting bids to clear out the land selectively. I don't just want it completely bare, we want to keep 30 or so large trees for shade, privacy, and scenery purposes. But other than that we'd want it gone. The bids were in the $15K - $20K range. One of the excavators recommended I look into having it logged out to save money (and possibly even make a little).

So this is where I need help. I realize that no logger will be jumping with joy over 10 acres, heck I don't even know if I'll be able to find one who will want the job.

What's the best way about doing this? I want to make sure that they don't leave my place a mess with stumps and ruts and holes and I also want to make sure they leave a few big trees and I don't want them to touch my pecan trees (there aren't many). Who should I talk to? How do I know what the timber's value is? How do I find a logger?

Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated.

[enigmaT120]

Welcome to the forum.  Your location in your profile would probably be a good start to get answers to your questions.

[Boatskipper]

Welcome to the forum.  Your location in your profile would probably be a good start to get answers to your questions.

Yes, you're correct. I've updated my profile to reflect NE Oklahoma as my location.

Thanks!

[scsmith42]

15 - 20K to clear and destump 15 acres is a pretty good price around here.  Usually I budget about 2X this amount.  It would be ideal if they used track hoes to clear, as that way they can dig the trees up and lay them over, taking the stumps out with them at the same time.

If you have the land logged, it will be much more difficult to remove the stumps because you don't have the weight of the tree attached to help pull them out of the ground.

If you leave the stumps and just grind them, in a few years you could end up with some holes that could break a horses leg.

What you may want to consider is having the clearing guys stack the logs - separating by species, and then see about having a log buyer come in to review and buy them.  You'll be stuck with getting rid of the stumps, but this is probably the most cost effective solution.

Good luck and welcome to the FF.

[Boatskipper]

15 - 20K to clear and destump 15 acres is a pretty good price around here.  Usually I budget about 2X this amount.  It would be ideal if they used track hoes to clear, as that way they can dig the trees up and lay them over, taking the stumps out with them at the same time.

If you have the land logged, it will be much more difficult to remove the stumps because you don't have the weight of the tree attached to help pull them out of the ground.

If you leave the stumps and just grind them, in a few years you could end up with some holes that could break a horses leg.

What you may want to consider is having the clearing guys stack the logs - separating by species, and then see about having a log buyer come in to review and buy them.  You'll be stuck with getting rid of the stumps, but this is probably the most cost effective solution.

Good luck and welcome to the FF.

Where does someone go to find a log buyer? Also, is there a way for me to know if there is any real value in the timber before I have anything cut by anyone?

I'm not going to pretend that I know anything at all about this, I don't. I have no idea if I have acreage full of worthless timber or something with some value. I called the state forestry department to see if they'll give advice, but yet to hear back.

[OneWithWood]

Hire a consulting forester to cruise your trees and discuss your options.  It will be money well spent.  Check with your local SWCD or NRCS office if they have a listing of consulting foresters in your area.

[Ron Scott]

x2

[treeslayer2003]

i'd call the county forester. he can tell you what you can do with your land, wet lands connot be cleared here and just cuz it looks dry soes not mean they don't call it wet lands. they can also tell you if your timber has value and possibly give you a list of loggers that may be interested. they probobly will not give you a value, but they are state empoyees and don't charge you.

[RHP Logging]

I usually do a couple of these a year.  The excavators don't have any trouble popping stumps after the logs are gone.  One guy Logging, a guy in a mid sized hoe, and a guy on a mid sized dozer: cut, stacked, popped, pushed and burned 40 acres of hardwood last summer in 6 weeks. We left 5 big trees per acre and the rest looked like a golf course.  Landowner is running cattle on it.  He got paid 1300 per acre and it cost him about 2500 per acre to have the stumps pulled, slash burned and all graded nice.  Then they planted.  Don't forget the seed cost after the fact.  I was the guy doing the Logging and the boys clearing were chasing me everyday.  In the springtime or other wet time I'd take a 10 acre clear cut in a heart beat.  Find a lumber mill and have the forester cruise it.  If it's worth anything call several Mills to do the same. 

[CCC4]

With us for about a year now, the machine production out weights a faller really bad. I mainly just cut the rough and steep/rocky stuff. Good reason in my boss' eyes is he can push  me enough timber with the Hydro Ax to burn 2 1/2 gallons on in like 45 minutes. The dozer (1550 Case with tree pusher) is a little slower. I would much rather fall them sometimes, but I'm paid by the load.

[thenorthman]

the basics have been covered, forester, mills, bids etc.

but yer options have not.

A: find a logger that will trade clearing for timber, out here its fairly common, logger does OK on the sale and you get cleared land.

B: have it logged on percentage or lump some, whatever, then pay someone to clear it, 15-20k is about right.

C: have it logged as above, then take money from the logging and purchase a used excavator (bigger the better) spend a few days (about 15) clearing it yourself, then sell excavator for more or less what you paid for it.

Down side to C is that you will have to do any maintenance on said machine, but go into it eyes wide open, and you will spend a few hours figuring out how to run it, but you can take your time and get it done your way.

[thenorthman]

Fergot the 4th option

Log it as above, but have the loggers pile the slash (shouldn't be much extra, its the stumps that cause most of the work)

Then just get yerself a few moocows and let them do the work of clearing and what not, eventually the stumps will rot to nothing (just a few years really) and you will have some very fertile pasture in no time flat.

As a side note this is how the pioneers did it long before steam power etc.

[Hiway40frank]

the basics have been covered, forester, mills, bids etc.

but yer options have not.

A: find a logger that will trade clearing for timber, out here its fairly common, logger does OK on the sale and you get cleared land.

B: have it logged on percentage or lump some, whatever, then pay someone to clear it, 15-20k is about right.

C: have it logged as above, then take money from the logging and purchase a used excavator (bigger the better) spend a few days (about 15) clearing it yourself, then sell excavator for more or less what you paid for it.

Down side to C is that you will have to do any maintenance on said machine, but go into it eyes wide open, and you will spend a few hours figuring out how to run it, but you can take your time and get it done your way.

No clue the price where he lives but up here at Taylor rental you can rent a 15 ton hoe for 3 grand a month so figure whatever other projects you need done and save a lot vs paying someone to do it.

[thenorthman]

a 15t aka 160 sized out here is $2500 a week plus delivery and fuel

but I can buy one for $19500

Down side of a rental, is it gives you a very short window to get things done, by a week they mean 40hrs, even though you have it for 168 hrs, they tend to charge extra for going over the time limit, and you don't get any discount for staying under.

So say you had mon. thru fri. and put 60 hrs on it (which is easy) that 2500 just went too 3750, and tack on the 400-600 for moving it each way (800-1200) that 2500 just became 3300-3700... less the extra hours,

Now say you want to hang onto it for en extra week, add 2500.

When I first got going logging lots of non loggers said "just rent the machine, no maintenance and it will pay for itself... blah blah blah" I have a phone and a calculator, make the phone calls do the math then decide is it better to buy old and resell or rent, and keep renting.

[WildlandFirefighter912]

Why not make it a silvopasture?

[wolf nemeth]

Welcome to the Forum!  By far your best option (and it has yet to be discussed) is to hire a forestry mulcher.  Far less environmental impact, you have wood shreds and chips covering otherwise bare earth, (and  protecting the   grass sprouts), and  you can still  do as you want with the  6" +   diameter trees. Just google it  and watch a youtube video or two. you'll never want a dozer once you see the mulcher in action!

[Hiway40frank]

Things are expensive on the west coast. I guess I have it lucky here in the east. still I would bite the bullet on a rental if it was a 1 time job because you know how a 20k machine can very well cost you another 10k when you're done. If I was running a buisness with it I would buy used or lease new never rent.

[scsmith42]

Welcome to the Forum!  By far your best option (and it has yet to be discussed) is to hire a forestry mulcher.  Far less environmental impact, you have wood shreds and chips covering otherwise bare earth, (and  protecting the   grass sprouts), and  you can still  do as you want with the  6" +   diameter trees. Just google it  and watch a youtube video or two. you'll never want a dozer once you see the mulcher in action!

These are not good options when the subsequent pasture is to be used for horses.  Small stumps left in the ground will rot and create holes.  This is a good way for a running horse to break a leg.

[thenorthman]

Things are expensive on the west coast. I guess I have it lucky here in the east. still I would bite the bullet on a rental if it was a 1 time job because you know how a 20k machine can very well cost you another 10k when you're done. If I was running a buisness with it I would buy used or lease new never rent.

Its a supply and demand thing, lots of operators but no machines, so the rentals don't spend much time idle, also factor in how close I am to Seattle and all the development going on there (constant development) plus MicroSoft is only 25 miles from here, so you get a bunch of Geeks that are good with joysticks and have loads of extra money...

I figure it this way though,

about 10 hours per acre, 15 acres 150 hours, 9300 just for the rental, assuming you have 15 days straight to run the thing (which no one ever does) then tack on moving cost yer at 10k or more. Just for the rental, hiring it would be 15k-20k at 100-125 and hour ish.. so ya find an ole cat 225, or a deere 590b, or hitachi uh123-uh040 that runs ok for 15-20k, dig yer property up on the weekends, it takes you most of the summer and fall, come next spring sell the excavator for 15-20k and call it good.

[thenorthman]

Also while I'm thinkin on it.

folks like to say "leave the trees and push em over with the excavator, makes it easier"

While yes the stump comes out easier, it can make a mess of the timber, and its pretty dangerous for an unskilled operator to be trying.

Get a decent sized excavator and popping stumps isn't any harder or slower then if the tree is still attached, and arguably goes faster.  Up to the logger really. But I prefer to hand fall, and deal with stumps and brush separately

[redprospector]

Things are expensive on the west coast. I guess I have it lucky here in the east. still I would bite the bullet on a rental if it was a 1 time job because you know how a 20k machine can very well cost you another 10k when you're done. If I was running a buisness with it I would buy used or lease new never rent.

Its a supply and demand thing, lots of operators but no machines, so the rentals don't spend much time idle, also factor in how close I am to Seattle and all the development going on there (constant development) plus MicroSoft is only 25 miles from here, so you get a bunch of Geeks that are good with joysticks and have loads of extra money...

I figure it this way though,

about 10 hours per acre, 15 acres 150 hours, 9300 just for the rental, assuming you have 15 days straight to run the thing (which no one ever does) then tack on moving cost yer at 10k or more. Just for the rental, hiring it would be 15k-20k at 100-125 and hour ish.. so ya find an ole cat 225, or a deere 590b, or hitachi uh123-uh040 that runs ok for 15-20k, dig yer property up on the weekends, it takes you most of the summer and fall, come next spring sell the excavator for 15-20k and call it good.

The only thing I can think of that you may have left out of the equation is the 15 to 20k you may have to spend on an old excavator to keep her going.  :D

[BargeMonkey]

 My opinion may sound diff than others but again alot of the FF is based regionally, what works here isn't the same elsewhere.
I would get a mill or forester to look it over, then for the fun of it I would post your facts on here, we have nothing to gain and hate seeing people get screwed over by dishonest people when everyone here strives to make the industry shine in a positive light.
Unless you planned on buying a machine and keeping it, figuring what the logs brought and doing the clearing work yourself as a bonus of owning the machine I tend to recommend against buying something until all other options are not viable. I wheel and deal in used iron, again the FF is a huge tool for researching iron, but you can get burned with an odd machine that's in rougher shape than you realized, be 20k in the hole and still be looking at stumps. I do a fair amount of clearing work, alot just like your describing, just walked a monster woodlot that's getting a haircut that will starve a woodpecker. I hate tipping trees over with stumps attached, would rather log it to death and then stump it, it makes a mess and is actually a hazard to the guy on the ground plus it's slow, your not getting the good stump wood with the tree laying on its side and it's just downright dangerous. We own 4 excavators from a -121-3 to a 230C-LC, been down this road. Rental is a rough deal, but done right it's good because your not tied to a machine, add fuel and grease and send it home when your done. Again rental rates are diff all over so I can't give my honest opinion, around here your father ahead to just have an honest guy come cut it, and work the stumping into the logging. I don't know what you've been quoted, here depending on how we dispose of stumps, how wet and the paperwork involved it runs from 2500 up to ??? Per acre. I just did one for 7500 an acre and I didn't stump it, so get a couple prices, if it seems to good to be true it might be.
When you say "boatskipper" ??? What exactly do you mean ? Westcoast ? Eastcoast?  The river ??? There's a few other boat guys here on the FF. I hold a Chief Limited Ocean's and 2nd's ticket working on the eastcoast. Walking away from the tug/barge scene soon to cut wood fulltime.

[Raider Bill]

Take some pictures of the area for us to look at.

[RHP Logging]

Pushing whole trees over the stump has to be handled twice.  Once to push it, then after the wood is bucked off it has to be shook off and moved to the burn pile.  Make sure you burn stumps with the tops.  It a waste of time and money to bury or haul stumps. I tried to explain that several times to some guys this spring.  They burned the tops first and then had a hell of a time burning stumps.  One pile they stirred for three weeks.  Also a hoe with a thumb is pretty much mandatory.  You can do with out, but it takes more finesse.  Usually a frost tooth is pretty nice to pop stuff out, but a bucket will work.  You have to do more digging though.  So log first, then pull stumps, then pile and burn. You can do some light grading when you're pushing up piles then better grade as you go.  And don't forget the rocks. On one sale they had a landscaper buying and hauling em away for 100 bucks a quad.  Doesn't soundike much, but better than having to lose them yourself.  They took like 30-40 quads out over 60 acres and this wasn't even rock country. 

[Hiway40frank]

Well I guess its time for you to show us what you actually want done (pictures) if its acres of mature hardwoods people will pay you to log it if its all brush its another story. If its nothing huge and the land is not a mud hole a d10 or smaller dozer could just rip the whole thing in a few pass's. My advice is to stay away from used machines, remember they're selling it for a reason most people with good quality machines have the running making money for them, then something hits the fan they do a cheap fix and get rid of it as quick as possible. Being from New York ive learned just about everyother guy out there is looking to rip someone off, mind you I grew up in the city. All in all if you have the coin just pay someone to do it a new track or roller for a hoe could cost half what you payd for it...

[Gary_C]

So this is where I need help. I realize that no logger will be jumping with joy over 10 acres, heck I don't even know if I'll be able to find one who will want the job.

What's the best way about doing this? I want to make sure that they don't leave my place a mess with stumps and ruts and holes and I also want to make sure they leave a few big trees and I don't want them to touch my pecan trees (there aren't many). Who should I talk to? How do I know what the timber's value is? How do I find a logger?

Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated.

Forget all the machine talk. All he wants is help in finding someone to do the work.

Best advice is to first find a forester to help decide if there is any money in the logs. Hopefully you can find some help from county or state forestry. If not, find a good private forester and get some advice.

So the key is finding someone to give good independent advice on the value of the woods.

[ohiowoodchuck]

Have you thought about a mulching head on a skidsteer. A man can do a lot of work on one in a day. It's about 600 a day for one around here with tracks. You could get all the brush cleaned up and go from there. Pictures of the area would help. If it doesn't have decent timber on it, the cost of the forester would just put you in the hole more.

[SawLogger]

We owner a small Sawmill by Stillwater ok. You might be pretty close to Johnson's Sawmill by Jay which could make it pretty easy hauling if you wanted to log it off yourself. There is very little knoledge of anything forestry wise in Oklahoma. There is alot of wasted timber around here mostly because no body knows what to do with it. I hope you find some way to save the good timber I hate seeing good timber go up in smoke.
I can't suggest a good logger from around here because sadly you can't trust any of them to do what they say.
If you where close I would probably be interested in logging it but its just going to be to far for me. Let me know if I can provide any more info.

[CCC4]

Also while I'm thinkin on it.

folks like to say "leave the trees and push em over with the excavator, makes it easier"

While yes the stump comes out easier, it can make a mess of the timber, and its pretty dangerous for an unskilled operator to be trying.

Easier on the guy on the machine...it can play Hell on the guy with the saw in his hand. It can get Western real fast like...cutter's entire body is at risk; feet, shins, thighs, waist, stomach, chest, hands, wrists, shoulders, neck, face and head...I know this guy....! Rough way to make a living, I choose falling them myself...but I dont get to pick my options on some jobs  :

[BEEMERS]

I don't what kind of operator you guys have experience with but it sounds to have not been good..let me give you another example with a very experienced,smart operator with safety and production the most important things...in that order.
Going through the land excavator with thumb clearing all the brush and little trees,pulling them roots and all until theres a pile them that goes on the fire.All the while planning a clean area where the big trees can go.
Where we are at..Its often big oaks and If they are big and theres good logs then there  is clay maybe 3-4 feet down but its there and digging stumps out of clay sucks.."popping" stumps?..when a customer here says "popping stumps" I say..."we are not on the same page from the get go" then explain this.
Dig around the big trees stump so much less pressure is applied to push it over. Also pulling the dirt back on the back side of the stump...1..dont hurt the wood 2...DO NOT let any dirt get up on the tree when it goes over.
3...get the stump up out of the hole so its is safe for the cutter .
Wood is not affected tree is clean. If cutter wants to start at top he limbs it steps back..with thumb on excavator I pull all or most of the brush away to give him clear easier access to the top..this goes on fire..
he cuts the firewood out, as I have a clear way to get it without affecting him I do and get it out of the way...ina pile for the forwarder later or in a truck or wherever...
At this point he goes to the stump..or maybe he starts at the stump...I'm there with the excavator and thumb following his directions...he knows exactly what he needs....I hold the stump so it wont tip one way or the other and split the wood AND he is at zero risk..OR I hold the tree if that is better..tree is cut as low as you want.
We eliminate almost all risk to the cutter this way and almost all risk of hurting that butt log.
Move stump to fire or pile or truck....I pick the logs out as he cuts them  to pile for forwarder or truck and as he is cutting if there is any stress on the tree or any risk I'm there to grab the tree or log coming off the tree and hold it as he cuts.
By the time hes done cutting the trees gone and on to the next one or more brush..smaller trees I might lay out a dozen first..anyway..its like a choreographed dance..we don't even talk just motion..we know what the other needs and we roll through this so fast and efficiently it would impress even you guys....meaning you guys here who have seen it all done a lot of ways..I think youd be impressed with the safety and efficiency of a good operator with a plan.

[RHP Logging]

Ive worked with good operators.  They know to stay out of my way til I'm done.  It's nearly impossible to push a tree over and not get dirt on the good wood near the stump.   Like you said. Dig three sides, push over and bring it out of the hole.  Theres different pressures on the wood then and I'm very good at reading bucks because all I do is buck in the woods.  I'd rather lay em out ( most trees under 30" take a minute or less for me) and buck em so I know exactly what I'm doing with.  On average i process a tree pulp and all in about 7 minutes.  If I would have to wait for an operator to hold the tree up for me that's going to add time.  I know, I've done it.  Also when you've got a machine holding the tree up it puts different binds in it too.  I don't doubt that you've got it down to a science.  I just would rather not do it that way.  I guess it depends on the ground when you're talking popping stumps.  A lot of the sand country I cut the stumps come out pretty easy.  Even 4 ft plus size.  Either way I think this thread is toast. The OP hasn't said much for a while.  It really depends on the timber and ground which we can only speculate at.

[BEEMERS]

smaller trees yes,I lay them out in a fashion that's doesn't add any stress and I keep clearing  while hes bucking the trees..Im only there to hold the stump..or the tree when he waves me over and points..hes very experienced and knows that just a little hold in the right place can be a big help.
Where I was talking we work together all the way on a tree its like a 36-40 incher that's still 20 feet tall laying on its side  and almost a semi load of brush per tree...the kind where some one has to move a lot of brush just to get in there...
Often I will lay out 6-8 and track to the other side to pck up what hes cut while he goes to the other side and back and forth like thatclean up what he cut then lay down a few more and back and forth..the dance never stops.

[danbuendgen]

First thing to do: post some pictures of the land you want cleared, so we can see what you have and tell you if its worth anything or not.....

You say "its so think that you cant drive a four wheeler around." That to me sounds like a over crowed forest loaded with worthless scrub. If that's the case, pay (your local/favorite/cheapest/most honest seeming, dirt worker/excavating company/logger) to cut the trees and pile the brush and stumps and burn it. I would not worry about ruts, they can smooth them off as they go. Hire a forester if you want to... but around here they get 80-90 per hour and dont know a thing about equipment operation or what a good price is for the work. They could tell you if the trees have value though.

I dont do excavating, I'm a logger, but I help out a friend who does mostly dirt work and some winter logging, I mostly help him here and there in the summer doing land clearing. I run the saw cutting, he pushed over the trees with the machine, and he runs his excavator, and he piles up the logs, brush, and stumps. It goes fast. Sometimes, if the trees have value, he does the work for the timber, or timber and money, or he charges them. It all depends on the size of the job and quality of the wood. 15k for clearing 15 acres sounds good to me. If you want trees saved, put a some flagging on it, it shouldn't be hard to work around.

Also, dont bother renting a excavator if you have no experience. There is a real learning curve, Its going to take you half a week just to start getting productive at stumping. That's wasted money big time!

Just my .02

[gimpy]

Just a personal opinion? I have 160 acres of pine forest. Most are under 8" (across ABH) but a few are over 14". I needed to clear just a couple of acres (initially) for my house.

I'd talked to the neighbors, first. The wealth of locl knowledge and resources might surprise you. For me, I just needed to clear 2 acres for my homesite. 78yo neighbor, on his D5 crawler, about 50 gallons of fuel, and me with my FEL. I pushed the bigger ones over. Much easier and faster for me to knock them over than with the crawler.

3 hours. Debris and all the trees and stumps along three sides. I'm leveling it out, filling in the stump holes with my box scraper. Now I'll go and cut the stump off, limb the logs, drag them (with the FEL) to one place and stack them. I'll clean out the dirt from the piles and make my own trash piles to burn later.

Then I'll rent a big chipper for a weekend. All the trash and limbs will run through the chipper. Meaning, Mulch & Compost for years.

The Logs? (For me, most larger logs will make lumber on my mill) The (smaller) logs will bucked to 4', stacked for a year, then split for 12 months of seasoning. Around here, as many cords as I can carry, delivered 100 miles away, I can get $300 per cord without dealing with homeowners. My trailer should easily hold 6 cords, 200 miles, $1800 cash.

My land will be mostly clear, with great homemade rich soil additive, and cash from the firewood, that should easily cover the cost of making bare land green.

Personally, I found the Forester to be unreliable and difficult to arrange a meeting with. I got away from begging. So I gave up and now get far better advice from the neighbors that have already done it numerous times over 35 years. Sure made it much easier to become part of the neighborhood.

[RHP Logging]

You can sell pine for 300 per cord cut n  split?   What does good hardwood get?  500?

[treeslayer2003]

6 cord? i can only get 10 on a tractor trailer.

[Gary_C]

You can sell pine for 300 per cord cut n  split?   What does good hardwood get?  500?

In central Oregon, pine is their hardwood. Same thing over most of the west where softwoods predominate. Their hardwood alternative is aspen and cottonwood.  :

[RHP Logging]

6 cord? i can only get 10 on a tractor trailer.

That's what I thought.  Quad axle dumper of cut n split is only 4-5 cords.  A semi with a long rock dumper can get six in it. I had a guy buying 8 ftrs on the landing in a big dump trailer once.  He was getting 3.5 cords in it.

[RHP Logging]

You can sell pine for 300 per cord cut n  split?   What does good hardwood get?  500?

In central Oregon, pine is their hardwood. Same thing over most of the west where softwoods predominate. Their hardwood alternative is aspen and cottonwood.  ::)

They have big leaf maple right?  And alder?  I could have swore there was an oak out there too.  Maybe in California.