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Tree blazes, property line trees

Started by crazy acres, May 30, 2016, 05:37:06 AM

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crazy acres


Hello, I recently was able to buy a larger (for me) piece of property in southern  oregon.  It is mildly steep, but before I bought it and afterward, I have probably seen every tree on the 30 acres.

The property is a fairly nice rectangle that runs from east to west.  My neighbor to the south has just recently logged their property, removing every tree with a blaze toward their side of the line (blazed, healed, repainted and within 1 yard) as well as trees with double blazes (on the line.)  I have walked and documented all of my property lines.

The damage to date as I can see is not that great (could be much worse).  One tree that is very evident in my pictures is a 18" dbh douglas fir that was marked with double healed over and re-painted blazes as well as tape. In addition it had large nails marked with tape on either side to mark the property line. Over half of this tree was  on my property, and fairly likely, the whole tree.

Should I feel bad? - Because, I do.  My property is important to me and  I would hope that they could do whatever they want with their property, but just leave me out of it.  Most of the marked trees that were destroyed were of no marketable value - their purpose was to mark the property line. I stupidly thought they would at least stay 3' back.

any thoughts welcome.

madmari

I don't cut anything with a blaze, flag, poster, etc and give a good buffer when possible. Also try to avoid felling across lines to avoid problems with adjoining landowners. Your annoyance is why I do that. Timber trespass is a serious thing here.
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grassfed

QuoteMy neighbor to the south has just recently logged their property, removing every tree with a blaze toward their side of the line

Perhaps I am wrong but as I understand blazes if the blazes faced your neighbors property those trees would be on your side of the line; the blades always face the line unless they are in the middle (going down the line) of the tree, then the tree is on the line. They may do it differently in your state.

I consider trees that have been blazed by a state certified surveyor as monument trees (the correct term is witness trees) and I would never cut one. If my neighbor cut those trees I would want some form of reimbursement or at least have them pay a certified surveyor to remark the line. I have had some very "stern" conversations with neighbors that do not respect the lines. Definitely get some more opinions from people in your area.


Mike

coxy

never checked the law 100% here but I was always told by my dad that is was against the law to cut a line tree that had a blaze on it  but there are some people that cut them  (for the surveyor to try to  make a straight line thats why one tree is blazed on one side and the next tree is the other side   this is  jmop)

WDH

That was a crappy thing to do that your neighbor did.  Greedy, and disrespectful of your property.  If you want to make an issue of it, you could have the line surveyed.  If no trees were cut on your side of the line, then fine, at least you can document the true line for the future.  If some of your trees were cut, you could charge your neighbor for the survey plus the value of the trees (in many states, with timber trespass, there are treble damages awarded for the value of the trees) since it was his responsibility to know where the line was when his timber was logged, and he did know that because he had the line trees cut.  If he refuses, take him to small claims court and I bet you will be reimbursed.
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Magicman

First, Welcome to the Forestry Forum crazy acres.

There could be a possibility that the adjoining landowner did/does not know of the timber trespass.  I could be entirely the logger's fault unless the landowner was the logger.  Whatever it was, do not ignore it.
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thenorthman

Different state and whatnot...

But Blazing up here isn't normally practiced anymore, flagging or just a piece of brass on a stake is good enough for the state. Fences work better by the way.


Anyway, I gather your more concerned about tree health then any trespass, since dead reckoning puts them on their side.  Blazing will ruin the value of a log if left to heal over, and it can possibly lead to disease and therefore rot (hence why its not commonly used up here). But the trees should bounce back from most of the damage. It just takes several years and there will always be a scar.

At a guess I would say the neighbor blazed them as a proper forester or surveyor would use flagging or paint, less work. It only takes a second to squirt some paint, or a few seconds to tie some flagging vs dragging around an axe or hatchet and whacking away at enough bark to make it visable, all while crawling through brush... Foresters are smarter then that, and surveyors are to lazy for it.

I like yer thoughts on its their land do what they want with it, need more folks like that.  Well really need less folks of the they can't do that it will ruin my view mentality. There is currently a group of yuppie scum trying to push legislation requiring developers and loggers to be responsible for neighboring tree health, or stay back from property lines at least 20 feet.  With more luck then I have it shouldn't pass, but honestly our county council is so elitist that all they care about is boeing and green hills... but I digress.

Anyway, I try not to cut trees actually on the line be it halfway one way or the other, better just to leave em alone.
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bill m

We do not cut line or blazed trees in my area. A forester is not a surveyor and while his boundary work will be very close they do not use the precise instruments that a surveyor does. So those line trees that are blazed could be a couple of feet one way or the other from the true boundary line. No reason to take them and possibly end up in court if in fact they were not theirs.
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Corley5

The only time line trees are cut here is to put up a fence and they're in the way.  Typically the landowner paying for the fence gets the trees.
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sandsawmill14

when the landowner that joins my farm had his timber clear cut they got over on me about 20' wide for  100' long strip in one place that added up to about 15 -20 marginal trees that they cut on me the remedy was they told us and the other land owner and they left me about 40 20-24" w/o that were close to the line for me to harvest when ever i wanted ;D  sort of a hillbilly agreement but he was happy and i am happy so no need to fuss over a mistake   but i should also say both farms have been in the same families for a long time my great grandad and his great grandad played together when they were kids on these 2 farms so that makes a difference too i guess in how we handled it ;)

but about 10 miles north of me they caught a guy sneaking in at night and logging on the back side of a property  >:( to the amount of about 150mbdft :o with an estimated 1/3 of it being veneer quality w/o  if that had been my place he would have never left it when i caught him fudd-smiley fudd-smiley

you just have to decide if you think it was some kind of intentional trespass or not and if they did enough damage to be worth any money or not. around here line trees are usually cut if timber is on both sides of the line the first one who cuts his timber will get about half of the line trees and when/if the other landowner cuts his timbr he will get the rest  but the corner trees are normally left.  i dont know what the law says about it if anything but thats just what i have seen in the area :)
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Ron Scott

Ditto! to WDH's comment above. Not the best management practice to remove the line trees. Check in the court house to see if there is a certificate of survey on the boundary line and if the line trees were defined in the survey established by a registered surveyor. If so, it may have been illegal to have cut and removed the line trees.
~Ron

HiTech

I have never cut posted or blazed or marked trees of any kind. I have had trees fall on the other side before. I pulled them back to limb. An old logger told me it was safe to cut every other line tree if they were not marked for boundaries. . I just don't like getting that close. If both parties are involved in the marking and they ok the trees to be cut then it is a different story. I like to keep a skidder length away from boundaries if possible.

CCC4

 A respectful logger should know better! We NEVER cut blaze trees...however the only blaze trees I ever see really are on FS jobs and they are ALWAYS orange or red so not to confuse them with the sale timber. These are the boundary lines for you sale area and you had best not EVER have a stump on the otherside...it is considered timber theft, you will get caught and FS or any Gubment project managers absolutely DO NOT mess around!

Private property markers here are a little different...a dot facing you is the line and the adjoining property owners tree. A dot on the opposing side is yours to cut...but I don't ever cut them. A dot in the side or middle of the tree means the line goes through the tree and is understood as a leave tree for both sides. Witness marks 10 feet apart are just that and you should be aware the line is near so leave them.

If one property owner is supplying the dozer work and build the fence on his own dime, generally it is understood that there will be 10ft across the line dozed and any or all leaning or dead timber towards the fence will be removed by the fence builder and or property owner.

Back to blaze trees...just a really poor representation of logging tree respect. The logger and or property owner "should" be mandated to provide a new survey IMO...and maybe even legally.

coxy

Quote from: CCC4 on May 30, 2016, 05:45:48 PM
A respectful logger should know better! We NEVER cut blaze trees...however the only blaze trees I ever see really are on FS jobs and they are ALWAYS orange or red so not to confuse them with the sale timber. These are the boundary lines for you sale area and you had best not EVER have a stump on the otherside...it is considered timber theft, you will get caught and FS or any Gubment project managers absolutely DO NOT mess around!

Private property markers here are a little different...a dot facing you is the line and the adjoining property owners tree. A dot on the opposing side is yours to cut...but I don't ever cut them. A dot in the side or middle of the tree means the line goes through the tree and is understood as a leave tree for both sides. Witness marks 10 feet apart are just that and you should be aware the line is near so leave them.

If one property owner is supplying the dozer work and build the fence on his own dime, generally it is understood that there will be 10ft across the line dozed and any or all leaning or dead timber towards the fence will be removed by the fence builder and or property owner.

Back to blaze trees...just a really poor representation of logging tree respect. The logger and or property owner "should" be mandated to provide a new survey IMO...and maybe even legally.
not to sound like an   but your telling me if you pay for the fence and dozer work you have the right to cut and take my trees if I'm reading this right  ;D

ohiowoodchuck

I believe in Ohio a landowner can take every other one or if he takes all of them he must give the neighbor 50%. I would take a blaze on a tree as much worth as a ribbon on it. There just no easy way around it but pay a surveyor to tie in the corners. I had my whole place done and actually worked with the guy and helped him do everything I could. I set steel fence post every 150ft. It was expensive and time comsuming, but I know my whole line and its accuracy is +/- 1/8". Friend of mine had a similar problem with mead, had 1/2 mile of line marked wrong to the tune of 7 acres in the whole distance. I called my surveyor for a second opinion after my friends was following up well. He said in his 30 years of surveying he has never seen a deed call out painted trees. Sometimes on the corners but never the line. Around here the Boy Scouts get there painting and compass badge for finding a old fence on mead and following it out and painting trees on the way. You can't even go by old fence. Sometimes there close but they usually were off 10-15 foot when they went down in a holler and up the ridge. Just my opinion on the matter
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Straightgrain

There is a BLM booklet that surveyors are supposed to follow when they blaze.
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Oliver05262

  I know that terminology changes with different regions, but I have never heard the term "mead". could you explain it to us?
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Spartan

Interesting thread.  I have cut blazes before, they just weren't on the line.  Which brings up an interesting point. 
The blazes I run into are usually on old or current mining claims.  I have yet to run into a blaze line that marks a whole section or even an entire property line for that matter in the places I have been.  Never heard anything about cutting a blaze being illegal.  Some states may be different.  I have run lines many times, and when I did it for Plum Creek out here they even told me, ignore them, run the line.  Some are not accurate for sure.  Regardless, when the line is established, we always leave a little buffer.  I have run them with GPS even and several have had 1/4, 1/2, and corner pins.  Usually the GPS is money, with a 10ft margin for error.

clearcut

QuoteI have never heard the term "mead". could you explain it to us

I wonder if ohiowoodchuck meant "metes" as in metes and bounds.

From Wikipedia:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metes_and_bounds

QuoteMetes. The term "metes" refers to a boundary defined by the measurement of each straight run, specified by a distance between the terminal points, and an orientation or direction. A direction may be a simple compass bearing, or a precise orientation determined by accurate survey methods.
Bounds. The term "bounds" refers to a more general boundary description, such as along a certain watercourse, a stone wall, an adjoining public road way, or an existing building.

And I have seen a "tree" called out on a deed. On a deed from 1848 it directed us "to where an Oak Tree once stood". So 150 years later I had to find an 150+ year old oak stump.

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treeslayer2003

Quote from: clearcut on May 30, 2016, 11:54:58 PM
QuoteI have never heard the term "mead". could you explain it to us

I wonder if ohiowoodchuck meant "metes" as in metes and bounds.

From Wikipedia:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metes_and_bounds

QuoteMetes. The term "metes" refers to a boundary defined by the measurement of each straight run, specified by a distance between the terminal points, and an orientation or direction. A direction may be a simple compass bearing, or a precise orientation determined by accurate survey methods.
Bounds. The term "bounds" refers to a more general boundary description, such as along a certain watercourse, a stone wall, an adjoining public road way, or an existing building.

And I have seen a "tree" called out on a deed. On a deed from 1848 it directed us "to where an Oak Tree once stood". So 150 years later I had to find an 150+ year old oak stump.
yup, here too. so many rods or perches to an oak stump. makes things real interesting lol.

Hiway40frank

I had my land marked 2ft off the line with a fence, well then some idiot thought that the fence was the line and cut every tree on the fence(my trees) mind you these were all 16-24in rock maples on an old stone hedge. Long story short the guy did not even argue and wrote me a check based on stumps and a bit extra to keep my mouth shut. Also besides the fence the actual line was marked with stakes every 20ish ft so there was no confusion and the posted signs were on the trees he cut. My fence and stakes were all done by a licensed guy so the was no argument.

grassfed

Blazes are an important part of property lines in Vermont. Only certified surveyors are allowed to cut blazes on property lines. The reason is that blazes are scars that change over time so they are very hard if not impossible to forge.  If a survey, done  in 1975, mentions blazed lines you look for heavily overgrown scars. Fence lines that are grown into trees are also good for this. I have a survey from as recent as 1999 that mentions specific trees "24 inch maple" and blaze lines. As a property owner I can repaint the blazes and flag trees. Every spring and fall I reddo some lines on my property. I do not create new markers I just locate things mentioned on the survey and make sure they are visible. I spend allot of time finding old barb wire and posts and flagging it where it lays.
Mike

ohiowoodchuck

Mead paper company which now all the land is ran by scioto land company.
Education is the best defense against the media.

reride82

 I will use an old blaze to relocate a missing corner marker if the tree matches the original notes, sometimes it is still the original tree, the stump with notable and correct scarring, or even the  remains of the tree after it fell but that is pretty rare. We rarely blaze trees anymore as there are better and more permanent alternatives to marking a line as you guys have pointed out. I have reopened blazes to confirm they were the original blaze, ie blazes that witness a section corner, 1/4 corner, or a MS corner. If it is to be fenced soon after the survey, we will mark with a stake and a lath inter-visibly (high spots, low spots, in thick timber, etc). If it is a boundary that won't be fenced, we will mark with fiberglass markers, t-posts, etc. If we are in thick timber, we usually abandon the GPS and use our total station as the canopy can greatly distort the GPS readings, and we are paid to be precise.

If it were me, I'd talk to the neighbor and see if he is even aware of the problem, then see how they want to proceed. If he doesn't see a problem, and you still feel wronged, then I would advise you to hire a surveyor and see if there was a timber trespass. Regardless if there was a trespass or not, I would build a fence on the line- good fences make good neighbors.

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crazy acres

Thank you all for the replies and the welcome! 

I will look further into this although any damages that I am aware of at this point might not be enough to go through any process- settlement would be good - I do not expect an "I'm sorry," but that would be at most what I could get.  If triple damages are the only penalty for stealing trees *if you get caught*-and it is proved. I do not see why it is not done more often.  Go try to steal a pair of socks at Walmart and then when caught suggest to pay three times the value, see what happens.

I will make an attempt to talk to the owner who is a logging company that may have contracted this job to another. 

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