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Sawing for the stave market

Started by rooster 58, May 27, 2016, 09:25:31 PM

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rooster 58

    I just got off the phone with a guy who is interested in contracting me to quarter saw white oak for the stave market.  A 3 or 4 month  contract to saw his logs. He wants me to saw 18000 ft. a month or more. I was wondering  what you guys thought would be a fair price to charge to saw on my wm mill and twin blade edger.
        Thanks guys,
                     Scott

Rusticcreations

Well I'm def of no help as I'm not even sure what stave market is lol.

But figured I'd say congrats if it turns out well for you and you make some decent money.

WV Sawmiller

   I'd suggest sawing at an hourly rate. Quartersawing is going to be slow, labor intensive work with a much lower bf yield than other types of sawing. Hourly rate protects you in the even the logs are smaller or otherwise lower quality than expected which is beyond your control.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

derhntr

That's a lot of sawing.
Where is the log supply coming from and who's logs. Gonna need large dia. logs to get much yield.

Working 6 days a week you would have to cut just shy of 700 bft a day. 

Wish you luck.
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

Ron Wenrich

You better look at the specs real close before you sign on the dotted line.  They'll want a stave cut, not just a quartersawn piece of lumber.  It will be of a specific size.  Generally speaking, stave logs are in 5' lengths.  You might get some that will be 10', but chances are you'll get better recovery at the 5' level.  Are you talking about 18 Mbf of stave quality lumber, or 18 Mbf of logs?  You'll find there is a big difference.

I remember going to a stave mill down in MD several decades ago.  They took a lot of care to cut the logs into quarters.  They split the heart.  I think the stave quality lumber was at 50%, maybe less.  There was quite a few different sorts on the lumber.  It was a very labor intensive operation.  I also remember the stave boards were pretty narrow. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

sandsawmill14

i agree with  ron be real careful before you sign contract. as he said if its 18m bdft of logs you might be able to cut it but if its 18m of 3-5"x5 staves (not sure of exact size) by the time its graded you could have to saw 40m-50m of logs and no way you can cut that with a portable band mill and it will take twice as much GOOD help to grade and handle all the lumber :-\  the only way i would try it is just on a trial basis for 1 week and see how you come out  then you know what you can do and what to charge i would look at the logs and add about 30% to the normal bdft charge for the trial week and tell him at the end of week you will tell him a firm price if you want the job or no thanks  :) also take into consideration if you know how to saw for grade or if you will be learning as you go :) good luck with it  :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Hiway40frank

Quote from: Rusticcreations on May 27, 2016, 09:36:01 PM
Well I'm def of no help as I'm not even sure what stave market is lol.

But figured I'd say congrats if it turns out well for you and you make some decent money.

I think a stave is the planks for wine/wiskey barrels? Or could also be for bows. Someone correct me if im wrong. Also thats alot of sawing being those "staves" are goong to be 1/2in thick?

Ron Wenrich

It's going to be 1" boards.  But, there is a maximum width for them.  You don't have to do any of the bowing if you're just providing lumber.  That will be done at the cooperage shop.  For whiskey and wine casks, they have to air dry for 18 months, from what I've read. 

The tedious part is quartering the logs to get your best yield.  I'm not sure if sapwood is allowed in the stave. 

Brewco makes a stave resaw system.  Looks to be cutting 3' bolts.  It cuts 30-50 staves per minute.  Sweet operation.  This is your competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7BV8J7ruZg
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

rooster 58

I spoke briefly to the gentleman. I will be sawing their logs at an undetermined site, mine or theirs. He would like to have 2 flatbed loads per month. As for size, he talked of sawing logs that were 9'6", or longer lengths that could be cut to length afterward. Width of boards were to be 6"or under. I should know much more on Monday. I am thinking king of trying a trial run not one load before I commit to something I'll regret.  Thanks for all the help guys, I've never done much quarter sawing and I'm all ears

rooster 58

Yeah Ron
    Boards were 1.125 and 1.3 thickness

Ron Wenrich

You might do some research on quartersawing on a band mill.  This one seems to be pretty good about doing it and reducing some of the heavy lifting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O01vkDEMoyY

When you get to your sidecuts, you'll have to flip those sides back and forth to get the quartersawn after each cut. 

If you search the forum for quartersawing, I'm sure you'll find some other methods.  But, its going to be a lot more grunt work and you'll have to do a bit more planning on each log on how to break it down.

I think I would want to do a practice run to see how long it takes to break a log down into lumber.  Then you'll get a better feel on production and how to price the job. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

tnaz

Thanks for sharing Mr. Ron.  Picked up lots I did not know from watching the video.

Horselog

Quote from: rooster 58 on May 27, 2016, 09:25:31 PM
    I just got off the phone with a guy who is interested in contracting me to quarter saw white oak for the stave market.  A 3 or 4 month  contract to saw his logs. He wants me to saw 18000 ft. a month or more. I was wondering  what you guys thought would be a fair price to charge to saw on my wm mill and twin blade edger.
        Thanks guys,
                     Scott

Can I ask who you were talking to at what company?  I'm looking for as many markets as I can for my operation here.
Benjamin Harris
Appalachian Mountains of Virginia
horse_logger@me.com

deepsouth.us

Interesting. American Stave Company is the nearest stave outfit around here (North MS).  They purchase white oak logs, and send them to one of two stave mills. All I know is they keep the price of white oak on the high end in this neck of the woods.

I say take a test run before committing to any contractural agreements. Give it a go and see what transpires.
Timberking 2000

rooster 58

Horselog,
      This was somebody that has orders, and is in the process of starting his own mill. He wants me to switch unilateral his operation is up and running, after that he said he would still have work for me

Magicman

I realize that this is not the situation here, but it still is something to keep in the back of your head;  Never build a business dependent upon one customer or outlet.  I would also be leery with one specialty product. I would not want my future to rely upon someone elses market or marketing ability.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

Interesting thread.

So a stave is quarter sawn, but does it have to dead along the axis of the log like quartersawing for ray fleck or is the primary concern the grain angle not log axis accuracy?  What grain angle would be good enough for stave wood, 90° down to 45°?  No sapwood?  No knots? 
Seems like a sawmill to break the log into quarters, then a single resaw with return, much like the video, would be the proper tools?
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Ron Wenrich

You don't need the ray fleck.  But you want to have the grain going close to across the board.  45° is a rift cut, and won't work for staves.  I'm thinking 75° might be about the limit. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Hiway40frank

Hey if you could get the barrels after hes done using them I know people pay a lot for flooring and wall pannellings made out of used barrells. Quick google search and I found wine stave flooring being sold for 15-22$ a sqft thats about 4xs what WO is normally worth.

WH_Conley

I will have to second the trial run before commitment. I had an outfit show up here a couple of years ago talking a good show about sawing Walnut for them full time. I knew one of the bunch and would not commit full time. They brought in a load that was not what we agreed on. I picked out what I could saw and gave them the choice of loading it back up or me making firewood out of it. I have been burning Walnut 2 winters and looks like one more to go. Be careful of Pie in the Sky and Rainbow Stew.
Bill

scsmith42

I looked into producing staves a couple of years back.  Since my primary business is quartersawing, it should have been a good fit, right? 

WRONG.

As Ron and others have indicated, grading is huge.  When we did a trial run, the stave buyer rejected 75% of my FAS boards as being suitable for staves....

Log availability is also another issue.  You need a large quantity of large white oak logs with tight growth rings.

The Brewster type setup is what just about everybody serving the stave market uses.

At the end of the day, I passed up on the opportunity.  Hope that it works out for you.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

rooster 58

   Thank you for all the replies and advice, it is greatly appreciated. I am beginning to be skeptical of the opportunity.  I need to do more research, and obtain more information from the prospective client

Ohio_Bill

I don't have anything to add, but found this post very interesting and informative. Thanks to all.
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

killamplanes

Around here its americian stave co. They buy full semi loads of 2 sided or better. Often times competing with lower end veneer market. My experience is when there low they are a hot market but when there full there close to grade market . But thats how everything goes. My buyer here is a nice guy 5 minutes with him taught me alot about stave snd barrel production.  The logs here go to east of st.louis to there mill for production. Neat market that consumes fair amount of white oak in the area.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

strunk57

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on May 28, 2016, 12:03:34 PM
It's going to be 1" boards.  But, there is a maximum width for them.  You don't have to do any of the bowing if you're just providing lumber.  That will be done at the cooperage shop.  For whiskey and wine casks, they have to air dry for 18 months, from what I've read. 

The tedious part is quartering the logs to get your best yield.  I'm not sure if sapwood is allowed in the stave. 

Brewco makes a stave resaw system.  Looks to be cutting 3' bolts.  It cuts 30-50 staves per minute.  Sweet operation.  This is your competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7BV8J7ruZg

This is 15 minutes from my house, I've sold them a lot of white oak
99 timberking b-20. John deere 450c loader. 79 Chevy c-60 95 GMC 2500, Craftsman tablesaw, Dewalt 735 13" planer, stihl ms-290 Stihl 029, Husqvarna 394xp, dewalt router & table, various sanders/hand tools.

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