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I need help with pricing a job

Started by ChadH, May 23, 2016, 10:09:02 PM

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ChadH

Hey Guys and Gals,

Ive been quite busy since starting my part time milling business, and learning a lot of what and what not to do. growing pains forsures. but thats all part of it right?

I recently went and checked out some logs that a customer wanted to have milled up. He wasnt sure what product he was looking for, so he spent some time figuring it out. (hes a partner in a land and home  developing company) they decided that they wanted to have the logs turned in to Live edge mantels that will be used in the homes of the development they are currently building.

I have not cut mantels before and do not know whether to charge a board foot price or an hourly price. he has not indicated whether he wants to also save any lumber from the logs or not. What you do and charge is it was your job? The logs are Douglas Fir.

And should I try and cut the mantel to keep the pith out of the mantel or keep it in the mantel. I would gladly take any tips and advice you skilled sawyers have to give.

I really appreciate the help as I have jumped in to this business head first, and have been managing to make a go of it. it has gotten way busier then I ever would have imagined.

Thank you.

Chad



Chad H
Westcoast Custom Timber

Wood-Mizer LT35 Hydraulic sawmill
Stihl 090 X2 in running order
Stihl 460 36" bar
Husqvarna 345 18" bar
Granberg Alaskan sawmill

WV Sawmiller

Chad,

   Are you going to saw 3 sides or just 2? The last couple of mantels I sawed I just left the front native edge. How thick to they want them and how long? I try to saw mine 3-4 inches thick but I have only sold a couple. I sold some 2" native edge boards to a furniture customer of mine and he has been having good luck selling them as mantels.

   If it were me I'd center the pith in the mantel but I am not familiar with Douglas Fir or how it will act.

    I sell my mantels by the piece but the few I have cut for my customers were bf rate. We were cutting other wood and they only wanted 1-2 and sounds like your customer wants many of them.

   With live edge and thick wood the bf will mount up quickly but there is more labor and set up time involved. What support are they providing? Labor, handling equipment, etc.?

   Because they are such high value items you want them to be perfect and may end up making several trim cuts and more handling will be required. The safe bet is to set a minimum for the job and charge by the hour.

    Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

ChadH

Thank you for your reply,

I am meeting with him again tomorrow to go over the specifics of what they want for size.

The mantels will cut be 3 sided (sorry for not including that) with one live edge. 4"-6" thick.

They will be needing about 30 of them. What kind of a board foot price would you attach to them?  our rates for dimensional lumber around here is varible and usually around, $0.40-$0.50/foot. would you charge higher or lower given the extra work.

I will have a helper that I am paying for (hes my off bearer) and I also have a tractor with forks I usually have around to help move things around. that is an hourly price on its own and a huge help for those big slabs.


Chad H
Westcoast Custom Timber

Wood-Mizer LT35 Hydraulic sawmill
Stihl 090 X2 in running order
Stihl 460 36" bar
Husqvarna 345 18" bar
Granberg Alaskan sawmill

OlJarhead

Honestly I haven't done mantels so bear that in mind and I've only done this for about 6 years or so.....

Having said that, I charge by the hour.  It's simple.  If someone brought the logs to me and asked to mill them I'd charge my 'local' hourly rate and mill them all day long.  I'd also mill 3 sides but that's me ;)

If I provided the logs I'd charge by the BF of the mantel based a rate that pays me about the same or better than my hourly rate ;)

Not trying to gouge anyone, just trying not to lose my shirt ;)
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

YellowHammer

You said three sided mantles with one live edge, so I would use that as an opportunity to saw out everything but the pith.  You can take multiple drops on either side (top and bottom) of the pith, centering the pith on the last slab (middle), then fillet the pith out, by cutting the slabs from each side of the pith for another couple 3 sided mantles. 
I've not sawn fir, but generally with hardwoods, pith is to be avoided at all costs if the desired result is a crack free, not cupped thick piece.

I sawed all mine by the Bdft, as live edge sawing really racks up the production rate.
Basically a fraction of the saw passes with no edging.  I don't like to use my debarker when live edge sawing because of the track it leaves in the bark.

   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WV Sawmiller

   I calculate bf on live edge stuff as the biggest clear board I could make if I edged the lumber.

   In this case sounds like hourly rate is going to be easiest for all concerned. I have a minimum fee of $300 to move my mill. I'm not sure 30 mantels would generate that if the wood was good and everything generally clicked.

   You could also just charge by the piece with a minimum to make it worth the effort.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

alanh

I`m still new at this but one of the more successful events was selling live edge pine slabs, I just flat sawed them, kept them inside for probably 6 months, they stayed flat. I priced them at 3.00 bd ft and sold them all (8) in a weekend.

ChadH

Thank you guys,

I think an hourly Price will suit me better in this case, and take any worry out for me.

I do not like working for free, and if Im spending 8 hours on a job and barely making an hourly wage my wife wont be ok with me spending this time away.

I recently had that on another job I did, Originally the customer wanted 20' 2x6 and 8' 4x6 so I gave him a deal on the 2 products and as we started cutting lumber he changed his mind and wanted any 1X materials as well (which was totally fine) but I had not worked out a price with him and ended up producing the 1x for the same price as the larger lumber. need less to say adding all that extra work for 1X dropped our production and slowed us down.

not only did he not understand that when I asked for a pile of logs to be stacked up waiting when I came, he thought 5 logs would be enough.... we burnt through them in one 3 hour night after work... then the Saturday I showed up for 8 logs.... and the remaining days he skidded logs out as we cut. some times we were waiting for a log. Production was slower then I had wanted and really got in the way of making the profit I wanted. I will switch to an hourly rate next time I do that..... I pulled my mill out and allowed him to gather up logs and will go back after I finish up some other jobs. we will sort out some more details this time around, before we commence work, but he probably has 15,000 bdft he wants sawn.


I certainly wish someone would have told me the word of me milling lumber would spread like wildfire.... Im literally overwhelmed trying to juggle my full time job and run this company at a part time boarder line full time side job. I will take it tho, my day job is likely going to get fed up one day, I no longer will work over time for them because even 3 hours at my own job pays more then the over time hours. How ever, Im glad its happening the way it is. this was my goal and Im glad to see it starting to grow.
Chad H
Westcoast Custom Timber

Wood-Mizer LT35 Hydraulic sawmill
Stihl 090 X2 in running order
Stihl 460 36" bar
Husqvarna 345 18" bar
Granberg Alaskan sawmill

derhntr

Personally I would charge by the mantle  Say starting at $50 each or what your market supports. I sold a 10' long 10 inch wide 2 live edge cherry mantle 5 inches thick for $75. Took less than 10 mins to saw. It was loaded right off the mill. Quick easy money.
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

Chop Shop

He is not asking what to SELL mantles for, he is asking about LABOR to cut someone elses wood into mantles.


I would cut for Bd/ft.   Its adds up fast and you get paid for bark and sapwood too.

Hourly is for bad logs/layout and slow sayers!

If he has decent logs and you can hustle, Bd/Ft and bust them out.

Just my .02

Chop Shop

If those mantles were 6' long by 6"x12" at your $.50 a bd/ft,,,,,,
that would be $540 for sawing 30 pieces.    Sounds like a days work.



Does he want any wood recovered out of the rest of the log?

derhntr

Guess I should slow down on reading to better comprehend the post :D. In this case yes BF is best bet.
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

Chop Shop

Quote from: derhntr on May 24, 2016, 11:23:28 AM
Personally I would charge by the mantle  Say starting at $50 each or what your market supports. I sold a 10' long 10 inch wide 2 live edge cherry mantle 5 inches thick for $75. Took less than 10 mins to saw. It was loaded right off the mill. Quick easy money.

you made $2 a bdfton the cherry.  You took the risks.   It was your wood, your haul, your storage, your cost of ya hit metal etc.     You took all the risk and made the investment before marking up a product that you resold.     It must have paid off if you are happy, right?    How many logs have you invested time into and they were not resellable?  That one mantle helped make up for a loss somewhere else.  Its a trade off.


If he can make $.50 a bdft just to CUT and someone else pays for the trucking, blades, logs etc, then I have to say he should do OK.

Selling can be awesome at times, but not predictable.

Sawing is so much simpler, I KNOW exactly how much I am making as soon as I scale the logs.  No matter the QUALITY of the wood.


derhntr

Chop Saw, you are correct on all accounts. Yes it was my log that cost only in chain saw fuel,mill fuel  little bit of diesel for tractor. Total time from tree, to mantle 30 mins tops. Tree would not have made much in way of boards. Had 10 inch sweep over 10 foot on a 10 inch log. In my thinking I got $450 dollars a hour to saw it. Minus what little expenses it had. 
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: derhntr on May 24, 2016, 12:48:34 PM
Chop Saw, you are correct on all accounts. Yes it was my log that cost only in chain saw fuel,mill fuel  little bit of diesel for tractor. Total time from tree, to mantle 30 mins tops. Tree would not have made much in way of boards. Had 10 inch sweep over 10 foot on a 10 inch log. In my thinking I got $450 dollars a hour to saw it. Minus what little expenses it had. 
derhntr,

  The last time I cut a big cherry with sweep like that in the butt log I left the curved front live edge and cut 2 -12/4 and 16/4 mantels and a couple of 2" slabs. The mantels are for sale at $250 each and the slabs for $3/bf. The curved mantels are very unique and I am confident I'll get my price for them.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

derhntr

WV,

I did the same but the one I did had 2 live edges. Live off the mill so I was happy with price.
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: derhntr on May 24, 2016, 08:53:54 PM
WV,

I did the same but the one I did had 2 live edges. Live off the mill so I was happy with price.
Because there was so much curve I know the mantel won't fit against the chimney so I went ahead and cut the back side for customer convenience.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

ChadH

Update:


I met with the customer yesterday, we discussed a few variables and agreed upon an hourly rate.

Im quite happy with the out come and should be able to pull that off in 8 hours.

$75/hr for Milling
$65/hr for Bucking Logs
$70/hr for Tractor w/ Fork

I will end likely end up around $800-$1000 for the day once all the other small fees are added in as well, ie: Set up fee, machine mobilization charge and the bucking work ill have to complete as the logs are all at random lengths.

Both partners were there and seem very happy with what we had reached. With the other work involved I didnt like the idea of bd/ft on this job, I wasnt able to reach numbers I liked with it priced that way. if it was a perfect job, Logs stacked and cut to an exact length, then I would have considered the bdft approach more.

and as always I will collect a deposit upfront before starting the job, I do not take chances that way.

I recently got set up with a mobile point of sale machine, so I can accept credit and debit. My customers so far have been loving that. They can get the the air mile points they want or use a debit card instead of writing a cheque or grabbing cash. Its a great set up for me, as it only has a fee if you use it. Debit is 0.25 cents per trans action, and credit is 2.75%. with credit, the 2.75 is added to their bill and no one has had any issues with that so far. I tell them, that I offer this as a convenience to them, and my products and services are not marked up to compensate for that. They seem to understand that. and more people opt for the credit then anything else when given the option. Its thru Dream Payments and the unit is on its own with a key pad that their card in inserted in. The connection with my phone is for data. It also comes with an App to send receipts and set up tracking of jobs. has been really helpful so far.


Thank you guys for all your advice, I have read everyones advice and if I can't use it on this job, I know I will on the next.
Chad H
Westcoast Custom Timber

Wood-Mizer LT35 Hydraulic sawmill
Stihl 090 X2 in running order
Stihl 460 36" bar
Husqvarna 345 18" bar
Granberg Alaskan sawmill

OlJarhead

I charge one rate:  milling rate.

I always tell my customers that if I have to run a chainsaw then I'm not running the mill which is the main reason they hired me so my rate stays the same.  My contract spells out:  I move the mill, run my chainsaw, move logs etc at my hourly rate.

This encourages them to either have someone else do those things (like themselves) or accept that my rate is my rate regardless of what they have me do.

My philosophy is simple:  I have a $30,000 mill that I brought to you in order to make lumber out of your logs for you.  It doesn't make much difference if it's running or not, I still have to pay for it and if I bring it to you and I'm bucking logs while my mill sits idle then I'm taking longer to complete the work I'm mainly there to do and could be finished sooner if I didn't have to.

Finishing sooner is better for the customer since it costs them less, and better for me because I'm free to head to my next customer ;)
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

ChadH

I like your philosophy! I may end up adopting that as I continue to grow. I'm still in the learning phase so, every job I continue to tweak how I bill and how I make money, while still maintaining the a balance of being productive and worth while for the customer. They could use a someone else in town. But that being said my price is my price and I don't work for free.

My very first job, was 12' long 30" piece of oak the customer wanted slabs he could then cut down to size as he needed the wood for projects. I charged him hourly. It took me 30 mins. I stood to make about $50 he gave me 120 for my trouble and had I of charged bdft I would have made around $250.

He hualed his wood to my property and used his crane truck to unload the mill after each slab was cut.

Part of the process of figuring out this business on your own. I have been having fun tho. In fact while I sit at work for 8 hours a day, All I think about now os getting back home to start cutting logs. What the next piece of wood will be, where the next cut will start. The smell of fresh cut cedar and Douglas fir.

Man is this ever an addicting business!
Chad H
Westcoast Custom Timber

Wood-Mizer LT35 Hydraulic sawmill
Stihl 090 X2 in running order
Stihl 460 36" bar
Husqvarna 345 18" bar
Granberg Alaskan sawmill

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