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Will there ever be...

Started by HiTech, May 22, 2016, 06:23:13 AM

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HiTech

machines too big? No matter what it is it has evolved into big and bad. Small and handy seem to be a thing of the past. Pickup trucks, cars, lawn mowers, ATV's, dozers, farm tractors, skidders, forwarders, log trucks, whatever has a motor or moves it has gotten huge. When will enough be enough?

coxy

the more junk the EPA makes them put on a machine the bigger they will get to make room for it       i was told thats why the jd 540 isn't being made any longer its to small to fit all the junk under the hood  :-\    they cry fuel economy but these bigger machines burn more  (jmop) one big machine burns more fuel a day than 2 smaller older ones

BargeMonkey

 A 400cc atv was considered a monster when I was in highschool, now it's "entry level".  :D
All the equipment manufacturers raised the specs, and kept the #'s the same. Recently went thru this with a new excavator, purposely tried to stay legal for a tag trailer, couldn't buy a new "160" and be legal because they had followed Cat and jumped everything up 1 size.
The new stuff is better on fuel, I'm 99% sure on that. Your seeing 10yrs old backhoes being dumped cheap for a mini excavator and skidsteer, fuel economy and the machine performance allows you do do more, with machines I can move behind a 1ton.
I've got a mixed opinion on the 540 debate. I own a 440D, another great machine deere cut from production do to lower sales / regional sales. Another local guy here has a 548E, 28L tires, just as wide as my 460. Burns close to the same fuel. Puts out 1/2 the wood, especially in small diameter junk. I see a 830 timberpro for sale right now, clam bunk, liveheel, with bunks, on 8x 28L tires, price actually isn't ungodly but that's a monster for around here on 90% of my jobs.
I ran 10-12 loads of beautiful spruce thru the biggest bandit grinder they make last fall, as hard as I could shovel it to my father it got chewed up. The wages to keep it out weighed the value of the material, scale wages for spruce doesn't add up,  didn't agree with it but I see the same style thinking with the "big" iron. But, figure the comp, insurance, payroll on the 2-3rd skidder and going big does have its advantages. My 440D has been on a "deer habitat" job for the last 3 months.  :D every few weekends the landowner marks more cabbage pine for removal, gets dragged out and building a massive "fence" around a 2 ish acre deer plot. Works great for that.

ehp

Enough is when you cannot pay for it . You cannot use a big machine here , the by-law will not allow it , way to much damage to the forest . I see the point of the big machines when doing clear cut but how about when you have to do very select cutting which is what happens here . A $400,000 plus machine I cannot see how you could or would ever be able to pay for it here . I donot see someone making the smaller skidder again but it sure would be nice for a new machine in the 540 size to be made

wannaergo

We do primarily very slect harvests. Usually around 7-8cord per acre in hardwood. We are a cut to length crew, both machines are 40k pounds or more. We make a very small impact on ground conditions, and both machines seem to weasel through woods fairly well. I can keep skid trails 11ft wide. There are many crews just like us up here. Fairly large ctl equipment, making minimal damages. Obviously there are crews with big stuff that make a royal mess as well, but big equipment can and will do beautiful work in a hardwood thinning.
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

HiTech

I just realized I have been around for most of what has been done to machinery. From heavy chainsaws that didn't turn much more than 6 or 7,000 rpm's to 30 ton feller/buncher. From 90hp pickup trucks that actually carried a load to the 1/2 ton 400 hp grocery trucks of today. From the days when kids mowed lawns to the lawn care services of today so jr. doesn't sweat. lol From when most of the roads where oiled gravel to the Interstates and Thruways of today. Farm tractors were 20 to 50 hp and got the work done. 3 or 4 TV channels and AM radios. Family cars with a 3 speed on the column. When it was safe to walk around Miami at night. Florida hadn't got the "Snowbird Bug" yet. Drugs were almost non-existant. A 440 Deere was a sensational machine. Deer carriers were used to haul supplies to camp. Things sure have changed. I guess some for the better and some maybe not so much.

starmac

I do understand where the question comes from and pretty much carries over to everything we use in life.

The market just does not support building utility vehicles and equipment anymore, at least in this country.
Pretty much no small plain jane utility 4 wheelers, sleds are in the same boat.
Heck do they even make a plain jane work pickup anymore?
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

ehp

Here in this county they want your skidder to be no wider than 102 inches , so you need a smaller skidder to work here . Mine was 108 inches wide and had to spend the money to get it to 102 inches , rims with different off set . "The one mill here has a JD 648 grapple and a cat 525 grapple , By-law told them if cutting a red pine cut they could use them, no way in a hardwood cut . So with this we need small skidders around here but do not see much coming out new, there is a guy in Quebec making a small skidder but do not know much about how it works and skids , You will never see a feller buncher here in hardwood or a forwarder going to the stump to collect the logs , The timber that is left is just way to thick and close together to be able to do that and the same with grapple skidders , they will not let them be used here . I agree on most things the new stuff is a lot nicer to run and easier on the person working with it but they cost huge . I kind of got in my head I might like buying a newer 540 and make it narrow to work here but also think I'm stupid for even thinking that and just keep my cummins 230A and fix whatever it needs when it needs it

HiTech

Quote from: ehp on May 22, 2016, 07:16:16 PM
Here in this county they want your skidder to be no wider than 102 inches , so you need a smaller skidder to work here . Mine was 108 inches wide and had to spend the money to get it to 102 inches , rims with different off set . "The one mill here has a JD 648 grapple and a cat 525 grapple , By-law told them if cutting a red pine cut they could use them, no way in a hardwood cut . So with this we need small skidders around here but do not see much coming out new, there is a guy in Quebec making a small skidder but do not know much about how it works and skids , You will never see a feller buncher here in hardwood or a forwarder going to the stump to collect the logs , The timber that is left is just way to thick and close together to be able to do that and the same with grapple skidders , they will not let them be used here . I agree on most things the new stuff is a lot nicer to run and easier on the person working with it but they cost huge . I kind of got in my head I might like buying a newer 540 and make it narrow to work here but also think I'm stupid for even thinking that and just keep my cummins 230A and fix whatever it needs when it needs it
I going to say in Finland they make the Alstor forwarders, they are small. 2 to 4 ton payloads. Get around anywhere. They also make small skidders there. These little machines are pricy. For firewood they would be the cat's meow. I hauled a 540 John Deere skidder for a guy a few times on an 8' wide trailer and the tires were never over the trailer edge. It would be well within the 102" margin. I think it was a B model with 18.4 x 34 tires. As I sit here writing I could see myself putting around the woods picking up firewood with that little Alstor. Nobody would even know you where there. You can get tracks for all 8 wheels. Float over most anything. All I got to do is win the Lottery and Europe here I come. Not sure what shipping would be but probably wouldn't care. lol I would be happy finishing out my days with something like that.

ehp

I was thinking more like a 2013 or 2014 540 machine , have had lots of 540B's , lots of places here you have to pull the cable 80 to 100 plus feet as that is as close as you can get to the tree you cut that was marked . Ya I think I should just stay with what I got, it works pretty good and pulls a lot of timber per day for me and the by-law likes how it gets around , its got 23.1 -26's on it so little sinking in the ground

chevytaHOE5674

I run our 6 and 8 wheel CTL machines (narrowest is 106" wide IIRC) through some thick residual timber (BA over 100 sqft/acre) and move around just fine and can have very little impact on the ground and regeneration as compared to anything being skidded tree length. Most of the tops end up under the tires so they are mashed flat to the ground, and usually make it so your tracks/tires hardly even touch the dirt. Most of the time there is no such thing as a "skid trail" you just forward wood wherever you need to out to the "landing".  But that landing is simply a wide spot in the road that once the wood is hauled isn't hardly visible. Guys who haven't spent a bit of time with a good CTL crew really don't know what they are capable of.

Granted there are limitations to CTL setups (oversize wood, extra steep ground, etc), but to say they do "way to much damage to the forest" simply isn't true. It's all in the operator. I've seen guys with 440 skidders and a chainsaw do more "damage" than a CTL crew.

RHP Logging

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on May 22, 2016, 09:52:56 PM
I run our 6 and 8 wheel CTL machines (narrowest is 106" wide IIRC) through some thick residual timber (BA over 100 sqft/acre) and move around just fine and can have very little impact on the ground and regeneration as compared to anything being skidded tree length. Most of the tops end up under the tires so they are mashed flat to the ground, and usually make it so your tracks/tires hardly even touch the dirt. Most of the time there is no such thing as a "skid trail" you just forward wood wherever you need to out to the "landing".  But that landing is simply a wide spot in the road that once the wood is hauled isn't hardly visible. Guys who haven't spent a bit of time with a good CTL crew really don't know what they are capable of.

Granted there are limitations to CTL setups (oversize wood, extra steep ground, etc), but to say they do "way to much damage to the forest" simply isn't true. It's all in the operator. I've seen guys with 440 skidders and a chainsaw do more "damage" than a CTL crew.

Very well said.  It's all about the crew and how much they care.
Buckin in the woods

teakwood

Quote from: HiTech on May 22, 2016, 07:53:30 PM
Quote from: ehp on May 22, 2016, 07:16:16 PM
Here in this county they want your skidder to be no wider than 102 inches , so you need a smaller skidder to work here . Mine was 108 inches wide and had to spend the money to get it to 102 inches , rims with different off set . "The one mill here has a JD 648 grapple and a cat 525 grapple , By-law told them if cutting a red pine cut they could use them, no way in a hardwood cut . So with this we need small skidders around here but do not see much coming out new, there is a guy in Quebec making a small skidder but do not know much about how it works and skids , You will never see a feller buncher here in hardwood or a forwarder going to the stump to collect the logs , The timber that is left is just way to thick and close together to be able to do that and the same with grapple skidders , they will not let them be used here . I agree on most things the new stuff is a lot nicer to run and easier on the person working with it but they cost huge . I kind of got in my head I might like buying a newer 540 and make it narrow to work here but also think I'm stupid for even thinking that and just keep my cummins 230A and fix whatever it needs when it needs it
I going to say in Finland they make the Alstor forwarders, they are small. 2 to 4 ton payloads. Get around anywhere. They also make small skidders there. These little machines are pricy. For firewood they would be the cat's meow. I hauled a 540 John Deere skidder for a guy a few times on an 8' wide trailer and the tires were never over the trailer edge. It would be well within the 102" margin. I think it was a B model with 18.4 x 34 tires. As I sit here writing I could see myself putting around the woods picking up firewood with that little Alstor. Nobody would even know you where there. You can get tracks for all 8 wheels. Float over most anything. All I got to do is win the Lottery and Europe here I come. Not sure what shipping would be but probably wouldn't care. lol I would be happy finishing out my days with something like that.

I ones request a cuote from alstor. They cost 63k  :o :o Thats without shipping. And that machine is just a toy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRjINfGF0dI
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

ehp

RHP, I never said anything about making a mess with the bigger machines , just you cannot fit them in a lot of places here and if you try to drive to the stump to pick up logs/trees you will be fined , that is one thing the by-law here and to the east of me is real bad for doing, in some bushes they mark out your skid trail and you cannot go off that trail ever so you pull the cable to the trees . To the west of me its a lot more like the wild west , yes they got by-laws but nothing like here nor do they have the guys checking you like here. I watch lots of logging videos from other places and if you did what they did here you would be fined and would never be allowed to cut here ever again . I have never seen a TC 604C but am thinking it should be about the size of the new JD640L so pretty big for here

1270d

Ehp, could you elaborate on what you mean by the by laws?    Is all timber producing ground government controlled or managed over there?

RHP Logging

Quote from: ehp on May 23, 2016, 06:57:38 PM
RHP, I never said anything about making a mess with the bigger machines , just you cannot fit them in a lot of places here and if you try to drive to the stump to pick up logs/trees you will be fined , that is one thing the by-law here and to the east of me is real bad for doing, in some bushes they mark out your skid trail and you cannot go off that trail ever so you pull the cable to the trees . To the west of me its a lot more like the wild west , yes they got by-laws but nothing like here nor do they have the guys checking you like here. I watch lots of logging videos from other places and if you did what they did here you would be fined and would never be allowed to cut here ever again . I have never seen a TC 604C but am thinking it should be about the size of the new JD640L so pretty big for here

I find it very hard to believe they regulate the size of machine you guys run.  Larger machines like.6-8 wheelers have far less ground impact.  I own a single bunk forwarder.  About 12 ton machine.  I select cut 90% of the time in woodlots from 5-100 acres.  In some of those jobs I can't see a bigger machine.  I will agree with that, but driving up to every tree does have its benefits. Like was mentioned before, no dedicated skid trail a lot of the time.  You can also land in a very tight spot.  I'd say I'm pretty low impact.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: 1270d on May 23, 2016, 09:27:57 PM
Ehp, could you elaborate on what you mean by the by laws?    Is all timber producing ground government controlled or managed over there?

Not to side track, but I happened to notice your age.  Here I thought I was talking to a guy closer to my dad's age this whole time!  Funny how that works.
Buckin in the woods

ehp

I wrote a big message and I guess the computer timed me out , its lost in space

ehp

By-Law,= these are people that have went to school and are pretty much foresters that work for the county and only the county . they check everything you do in the bush and are smart at what their looking at so no games with them, yes all trees have to be approved by them to be cut no matter who owns the ground they grow on

ehp

Everything is very tight managed here, basal is very high and in some cases hard to cut as so much timber is left for next time which they want to be cut in 8 years

treeslayer2003

Quote from: RHP Logging on May 23, 2016, 10:15:36 PM
Quote from: 1270d on May 23, 2016, 09:27:57 PM
Ehp, could you elaborate on what you mean by the by laws?    Is all timber producing ground government controlled or managed over there?

Not to side track, but I happened to notice your age.  Here I thought I was talking to a guy closer to my dad's age this whole time!  Funny how that works.
whipper snappers  ;D

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: ehp on May 23, 2016, 10:26:19 PM
yes all trees have to be approved by them to be cut no matter who owns the ground they grow on

Wow. Makes me glad to live down here in a free country where we can to what we want with our own trees.

RHP Logging

Even private land the government sticks their nose in?  We cut every 8-10 here too.  This is hardwood I'm talking about.  Decent sized timber often times.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Buckin in the woods

BargeMonkey

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on May 24, 2016, 06:32:28 AM
Quote from: ehp on May 23, 2016, 10:26:19 PM
yes all trees have to be approved by them to be cut no matter who owns the ground they grow on

Wow. Makes me glad to live down here in a free country where we can to what we want with our own trees.
;) ;) ;)    and just think how many "people" are planning to move north when "We make America great again" in November.
It is nice to hear how things are other places, but we have weird and wacky stuff down here too. Without Labbatt Blue I may cease to function so I am literally at the mercy of our neighbor to the north.  :D

ehp

Yes, any tree has to be released by the by-law for you to cut . When I first came down here to log I hated being told what I could or could not do but after being here I can tell you this system does work and works well , You always are cutting big high grade timber and the timber grows pretty fast . And you do not thin the bush out to where the oak start growing pin knots . Cause I'm on sand the wood is very white in color and it brings a higher value than wood cut off clay ground . And because the wood is so white the demand is very high and you still got a job where further away on clay your sitting as the mills do not want it unless they get low on logs . You just got to stop worrying or thinking and go with the flow . They want it done their way so do it their way or your not cutting at all

Hiway40frank

Remember Canada is a socialist country. Translation-you cant do anything without the govt approval. I had a friend who lived up there and they would always be inspecting his home or making sure his lawn grass was cut to the right length.

Jamie_C

Quote from: Hiway40frank on May 24, 2016, 12:51:21 PM
Remember Canada is a socialist country. Translation-you cant do anything without the govt approval. I had a friend who lived up there and they would always be inspecting his home or making sure his lawn grass was cut to the right length.

As a born and bred Canadian i can assure you we don't have a National standard for grass height and our houses aren't always being inspected. I would hazard a guess that your friend lived in a subdivision with a home owners association, those nefarious groups can also be found in the USA and are commonly found to be more annoying than useful.

Ken

Quote from: ehp on May 23, 2016, 10:28:57 PM
Everything is very tight managed here, basal is very high and in some cases hard to cut as so much timber is left for next time which they want to be cut in 8 years

Although I would like to work in the high valued hardwood stands that you enjoy in the rich soils of southern Ontario I would have a hard time adjusting to being told what to do on my property.  Here in eastern Canada as long as you are not driving through streams you can do pretty much whatever you want to your woodlot.  Can't see that changing anytime soon.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

ehp

Its just a county thing , and you guys know they have to do it or there would be no grade timber left . Not to many loggers will walk by a $1000 hard maple tree and let it grow , A lot of loggers think about today and not the future and that does not work

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: ehp on May 24, 2016, 06:52:06 PM
Its just a county thing , and you guys know they have to do it or there would be no grade timber left . Not to many loggers will walk by a $1000 hard maple tree and let it grow , A lot of loggers think about today and not the future and that does not work

I beg to differ. We have no such laws here and we leave plenty of nice timber. We generally cut marked stands that are managed for the future we cut the worst first and leave some of the best to grow til the next rotation. Leaving a decent residual basal area and spacing the stems and crowns as to promote vigorous growth.

dustintheblood

Quote from: HiTech on May 22, 2016, 05:21:52 PM
I just realized I have been around for most of what has been done to machinery. From heavy chainsaws that didn't turn much more than 6 or 7,000 rpm's to 30 ton feller/buncher. From 90hp pickup trucks that actually carried a load to the 1/2 ton 400 hp grocery trucks of today. From the days when kids mowed lawns to the lawn care services of today so jr. doesn't sweat. lol From when most of the roads where oiled gravel to the Interstates and Thruways of today. Farm tractors were 20 to 50 hp and got the work done. 3 or 4 TV channels and AM radios. Family cars with a 3 speed on the column. When it was safe to walk around Miami at night. Florida hadn't got the "Snowbird Bug" yet. Drugs were almost non-existant. A 440 Deere was a sensational machine. Deer carriers were used to haul supplies to camp. Things sure have changed. I guess some for the better and some maybe not so much.

Very well said       smiley_clapping smiley_clapping
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

dustintheblood

Quote from: ehp on May 24, 2016, 06:52:06 PM
Its just a county thing , and you guys know they have to do it or there would be no grade timber left . Not to many loggers will walk by a $1000 hard maple tree and let it grow , A lot of loggers think about today and not the future and that does not work

Good, bad and ugly.  I've seen it in the foresters, loggers, truckers, mills, brokers, retailers and contractors.  Especially in the homeowners and landowners.  No matter what the rules, bylaws and regulations are, the bad actors will weasel their way into things.

What I find refreshing after many years on here is that good practices are noticed and commended. There isn't an undertone of working against nature or the law, but rather a true community that offers help and wisdom.

True that here in Canada (spoken as someone who's lived on both sides of the border) that there's a perception that things are vastly different; and in some ways they are.  However, so many of our basic principles are shared.   As Canadians we are friends with American neighbours and the same goes the other way.  This is significantly evident as we talk "wood-stuff".
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

dustintheblood

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on May 24, 2016, 10:02:15 PM
Quote from: ehp on May 24, 2016, 06:52:06 PM
Its just a county thing , and you guys know they have to do it or there would be no grade timber left . Not to many loggers will walk by a $1000 hard maple tree and let it grow , A lot of loggers think about today and not the future and that does not work

I beg to differ. We have no such laws here and we leave plenty of nice timber. We generally cut marked stands that are managed for the future we cut the worst first and leave some of the best to grow til the next rotation. Leaving a decent residual basal area and spacing the stems and crowns as to promote vigorous growth.

Unfortunately EHP is correct.  We are at different ends of a big province and how things shake out here without some kind of regulation isn't always cool.  Just down the road is the fellow with a beat-up set of machinery that comes to peoples doors, offers some cash and starts-a-cuttin'.  He stops when he's run out of wood, or when his machinery breaks down.  I've seen him running down the hard-top at night with a wheel missing on his skidder, limping home from another "job well done".

On one hand we don't want over regulation or big brother, but something to keep the bad actors out of the woods would help.

The prime timber around here's been raped over pretty bad.  I'm no tree hugger to be clear (>25 years in the industry) and the 90's and 00's were real bad for the woods. Top dollar being paid meant lots of trucks rolling past with pretty wood.

Now I'm speaking of private lands here.  In the US, approximately 95% of forested land is privately held, but we're the opposite up here.  The shear geographic scale of our nation has provided us with Crown Land (owned by the federal government, but managed by the provincial governments) that is about 95% of the forested land in the country.  Management practices and the implementation of certifications (i.e. SFI and FSC) are required in nearly every management unit (with the exception of a handful in Atlantic Canada).  On Crown Land, foresters and loggers MUST do the right thing or they're out.  Plain and simple.

Thank you again to everyone who's weighing in on this thread. An interesting read for sure.
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

thecfarm

Yes,it has been an interesting thread.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

RHP Logging

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on May 24, 2016, 10:02:15 PM
Quote from: ehp on May 24, 2016, 06:52:06 PM
Its just a county thing , and you guys know they have to do it or there would be no grade timber left . Not to many loggers will walk by a $1000 hard maple tree and let it grow , A lot of loggers think about today and not the future and that does not work

I beg to differ. We have no such laws here and we leave plenty of nice timber. We generally cut marked stands that are managed for the future we cut the worst first and leave some of the best to grow til the next rotation. Leaving a decent residual basal area and spacing the stems and crowns as to promote vigorous growth.

Same here.
Buckin in the woods

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