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Scaling questions

Started by DeerMeadowFarm, May 02, 2016, 09:27:18 AM

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DeerMeadowFarm

I want to build a sugar shack this year and plan on using wood off the property. I don't have a mill (yet) so I'm going to bring the logs to my old source for rough-cut. He said he gets $.25/bf for soft wood and $.35/bf for hardwood. He has an old circle mill.
I know little to nothing about scaling so here's my dumb questions:
1. What scale do people use? I see Doyle, International, and Scribner in the toolbox and I get different numbers from each.
2. I cut my logs 6" over on length (10'-6" for a 10' board) which is probably a little longer than I needed, but do you use actual length when scaling or what you are trying to get?
3. When scaling diameter, I think you measure inside the bark line not the actual OD, is that correct?

The guy doing the work is pretty decent; I don't expect that he'll try to screw me or anything, I just want to get an rough idea up front what it should cost me.

Thanks!
Rich

Dave Shepard

Around here, it's mostly Int. 1/4". You measure on the whole foot, not the trim.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Remle

Since you are using the logs from your property, the cost of the milling can be simplified by making up a cut list for the sawyer. Then you will know the BF of lumber required for the project X the cost of .25 for the soft wood per the sawyer's quote. Trying to price this on the BF per log scale is fool hardy at best. One poster awhile back ran into the same dilemma when he took a wagon load of logs to be sawed. He thought based on his assessment of the log scale he had just enough to make the board footage he required and when he went to pick up his material he was astonished, his logs yielded way more than he need, costing him considerably more. Every one here will have a different opinion as to the best log scale to yield value. In your case I would talk to the sawyer and ask him what he feels you should cut for the quantity/size of logs needed. 

WV Sawmiller

DeerFarm,

   I assume you are asking so you have a good estimate in advance for billing purposes and to cut enough logs to fill your cut list. I assume the sawyer is charging by the bf for the finished lumber and not for the bf estimates of the logs as that is what most of us do. I recommend the international 1/4 scale and if you have good straight logs I typically beat that by 15-30%.

   BTW - since few logs are actually round when I measure I measure twice inside the bark, little end, at 90 degree angles and use the average for the diameter.

   Good luck. I hope and trust you have a very good and rewarding experience.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

DeerMeadowFarm

I know what my cut list will work out to for board feet, but for example, I have some posts that will be cut out which will take a large amount of the log but not all of it. What's left may not fill something else on my cut list, but I am figuring I'd just have the remainder of the log milled into boards or something. So I guess I don't know what I would end up with if you follow what I mean. That's why I was trying to figure out the BF from the log itself....? Maybe it's not the best way?

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on May 02, 2016, 01:06:29 PM
I know what my cut list will work out to for board feet, but for example, I have some posts that will be cut out which will take a large amount of the log but not all of it. What's left may not fill something else on my cut list, but I am figuring I'd just have the remainder of the log milled into boards or something. So I guess I don't know what I would end up with if you follow what I mean. That's why I was trying to figure out the BF from the log itself....? Maybe it's not the best way?

   Should still work. Just calculate and include the bf of your posts in the total count.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Peter Drouin

You bring a log to a mill and you will pay for all the lumber the thing has in it.
Before you cut your trees make a list of lumber you will need and match log to lumber BF
Like if you need 100- 2x4x8 at 5.3 BF for one x 100 = 530BF. Cut 600BF of logs 8'6" And so on. That way you will have not to much lumber over what you need.
With the Int, scale, And that's what I use, I can get 1,200 to 1,500 BF from a 1000BF of logs with my Wood Mizer. ;D

And cut straight logs, no bananas. :D

Like it was said, inside the bark small end Int

A long, long time ago I brought logs to a mill and the lumber I got back was not the grade I brought to him in logs. I did not have 5" knots in the logs that I had in my lumber. :D :D
So the next time I painted all the log ends blue. When I went to get my lumber it was all blue on the ends. Just saying. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

GAB

In DMF's first post he mentions that the sawyer has a circle mill.  Therefore, I do not think that the overage, if any, will be on the high sides of the estimates mentioned above.
Gerald

W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

thecfarm

You want the logs about 4-6 inches longer for trim. International is used in our area. If the log has a sweep than you won't get as much lumber from it. If the log measure 18 inches one way,but measure 16 the other way,go with the 16.
I want to build a sugar shack too,a small one. Knowing me I will keeping saying that for 2-3 years.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Peter Drouin

GAB, I know, :D :D :D I like to tell people what can be done with a band mill.
smiley_nananana
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

DeerMeadowFarm

Thanks for the help guys. I guess what makes it a little harder for me to figure is I am planning to make it like a pole barn with larger beams to give it a post and beam "look". So I have a lot of 6x6 and 6x8 beams. Most of my logs are 12" and up to 14" in diameter. I'm thinking (and maybe I'm wrong) that I'll only be able to get one or two beams out of each log, but he'd still be able to cut some boards or 2X's out of the remainder of the log, which is fine; I'm sure I'll make use of it at some point. But I know that I'll have to pay for those as well even though they're not on my cut list. That's why I thought (and, again, I may be wrong) that I'd get a closer estimate by the BF/log....?

Magicman

With logs that small, I would not take but one beam from a log.  The rest would be side lumber.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

DeerMeadowFarm

Quote from: Magicman on May 03, 2016, 07:55:14 AM
With logs that small, I would not take but one beam from a log.  The rest would be side lumber.

That's kind of what I was thinking, hence my dilemma for estimating my cost...  :-\

GAB

Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on May 03, 2016, 07:58:56 AM
Quote from: Magicman on May 03, 2016, 07:55:14 AM
With logs that small, I would not take but one beam from a log.  The rest would be side lumber.

That's kind of what I was thinking, hence my dilemma for estimating my cost...  :-\

Because of all the variables involved the mathematical equation is virtually impossible to solve correctly.  Therefor, my suggestion would be to give it your best try. as far as estimating goes. and add 50% for good measure.  Hopefully you will have some $'s left over to come home with.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Peter Drouin

Not hard, Take a log scale it and right down the BF, then subtract the BF of the 6x6 from it.
The difference in the over run you will pay over the price of the 6x6.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

DeerMeadowFarm

Just a follow up: Using the International scale, I came up with 538 BF for my load of logs. What I ended up with was 535 BF; 38 BF of it was "extra" (i.e. not on my cut list). He ended up charging me $28.71 more than what it calculated to which I'll need to figure out with him at some point.

I have a (heavy) load of logs to drop off to him today. Using the International scale I get about 469 BF, but this load is all hardwood so I'm about 574 pounds heavier this time.

Who's bright idea was it to use hardwood for my posts and beams anyway?  ::)

WV Sawmiller

   Thanks for the follow up. In my opinion you got pretty dang close and I'd be thrilled on both sides if we came out that close.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The Int 1/4 means that a 1/4" wide kerf is expected.  Many circular mills have 9/32".

The scaling length is the last full foot.

Scaling diameter has as the first step: choose the smallest diameter that goes through the center of the log (ignore the rings to get the center) and then go 90 degrees to get the second diameter.  Average the two numbers. When right on a half mark, round up once and down the next.  9brief summary, but do the steps in order.)

SAWMILL & Woodlot magazine has an article about practical scaling next month.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

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