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gear matic 19/119

Started by coxy, April 29, 2016, 07:42:10 PM

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coxy

thought I was the g matic king but thinking not ;D  I rebuilt the whole winch new drum,bands, dogbones brake rod changed the brake plunger, bearings ,brake spring rebuilt the control handle clutch plunger and this thing still jams and wont release when you have a big skid or if the logs get jammed up behind a rock,stump or a tree it only does it with a lot of pressure on it other than that it will release fine the handle will go down but will not let the bands release  one other thing when it wont release if you quick winch in and release some times it will let go but not always   has anyone ever tried to cut a cable with the pressure of the skidder tires off the ground I did and its not fun I would not recommend anyone to do that I had no other choice 

madmari

I had that problem too, among others with the problematic. Mine had a sticky clutch cylinder (that slave that pushes the clutch bands out. If there is ANYTHING in the bore of that slave, dirt, rust, etc., it will not release.
   Mine was working perfect for a couple moths, then started acting acting up again yesterday. Sure enough, stuck cylinder. Cleaned it, winch worked good for a couple hitches and then wouldn't winch in. Took it apart again last night- coated with brake fluid. Cleaned it up, adjusted bands, tightened everything and will assume I get to do it all again to discover a leak somewhere. They work good when the stars align, but jumpin' Jehosofat they are a headache when they don't.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

Plankton

Maybe your master control is sticking, spring got sideways or something? What happens when you Crack a fitting on the clutch line when it's jammed?

I think I have so many different issues with my winch everyone someone posts a gearmatic question on here I'm also working on my winch.

Just two days ago I lost all pull and the handle bottomed out when going to winch in, my outer clutch with less then a 100 hrs on it was half worn down and everything was out of adjustment. Worked good for two turns the then the clutch slave over extended and blew the cup out and soaked everything in brake fluid!

Fixed it by making a new pushrod and replacing the piston and cup with one from a spare master control rebuild kit. They fit perfectly in case anyone runs into the same issue and it's too late for a parts run.


lumberjack48

 It seems like theres a 100 an 1 things that go wrong with a Gearmatic winch. When usually its something very simple.
When i had a winch that wouldn't release, it was air in the line or master control needed a kit. In my 28 yrs i never had a sticky slave cylinder or had one blow apart, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The only time a had trouble with the pulling shoes, air in line, out of adjustment, master control or the main shaft that the pulling shoe assembly works back and fourth on is sticking. For a quick fix i'd spray W-D40 in the slot where the line comes out of the main shaft. This would fix it for a month or two.
There are so many moving parts, and they all have work together. This why a guy has to have hands on to fix it.
I don't understand the shoe or brake band ware. The only way they can show ware is if there being slipped. I have never replaced pulling shoes, and only one brake band. The brake band was in good shape, but do to the weather the band material was separating from the band.
Make sure to use the right brake fluid.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

lumberjack48

 I know you've probably seen this a 100 times but it don't hurt to look and read again.

  http://www.paccarwinch.com/pdf/J358J.PDF

If the Master control doesn't let the brake fluid return back into it properly every time, a guy thinks its the winch acting up when its not, its the Master control. 
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Spartan

My vote is master control as well.  My brake would not release and I would get tremendous pressure pushing (or trying to) on my release lever, it ended up being the lever pin on the brake side was getting hung up on the snap ring and was also crusted so it would not move freely and would jam it into the side of the cylinder on the master control.  If i bumped the clutch side it would free the pin up sometimes.

coxy

you think it would jam all the time with the pin jamming on the snap ring this works great with no load or half load on    it only acts up with a lot of pressure on it or if you winch the logs to tight in the basket/arch then it wont release the handle goes to the release spot with out any abnormal pressure like trying to force it down the control was rebuilt 2weeks ago and still didn't help it   I have over 5grand in this thing and it never helped it       the only thing that is not new is the winch case and the ring/pinon and pto gears     maybe ill try the control off my other skidder    this thing has got me almost to the point I want to put my other jd winch on it  my other g matic never gives me any trouble it can set 6 months and it will work fine it has not been opened up in over 5 years granted I my only use it 2-3 times a year but you would think that would give more trouble    sorry for the rant but I feel a little better  :D :D :D :D

treeslayer2003

Quote from: lumberjack48 on April 30, 2016, 02:17:47 PM
It seems like theres a 100 an 1 things that go wrong with a Gearmatic winch. When usually its something very simple.
When i had a winch that wouldn't release, it was air in the line or master control needed a kit. In my 28 yrs i never had a sticky slave cylinder or had one blow apart, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The only time a had trouble with the pulling shoes, air in line, out of adjustment, master control or the main shaft that the pulling shoe assembly works back and fourth on is sticking. For a quick fix i'd spray W-D40 in the slot where the line comes out of the main shaft. This would fix it for a month or two.
There are so many moving parts, and they all have work together. This why a guy has to have hands on to fix it.
I don't understand the shoe or brake band ware. The only way they can show ware is if there being slipped. I have never replaced pulling shoes, and only one brake band. The brake band was in good shape, but do to the weather the band material was separating from the band.
Make sure to use the right brake fluid.

this was always my trouble. i suspect perhaps the replacement bands i got where sub par....

Spartan

I'm always working on them.  We have two on the job.  Sucks.  Wish I could afford to put a hydraulic on my machine. 

Your dilemma has me stumped.  Beyond my expertise on them.

My solution would be run the one that works.  But then, I have no time to mess with stuff.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: Spartan on April 30, 2016, 05:53:16 PM
I'm always working on them.  We have two on the job.  Sucks.  Wish I could afford to put a hydraulic on my machine. 

Your dilemma has me stumped.  Beyond my expertise on them.

My solution would be run the one that works.  But then, I have no time to mess with stuff.
you got one a cat right? i'd love to know if a cat with a lufkin has a reverse box on it.

Spartan

forgive my ignorance Mike, what's a lufkin?  Hyd winch?

Yes we have a 518.  And it is plum WORE OUT!  We are always jury rigging that winch (and other parts).
I lost my radiator and have been having to run the 518.  Can't wait to have mine running again.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: Spartan on April 30, 2016, 06:25:34 PM
forgive my ignorance Mike, what's a lufkin?  Hyd winch?

Yes we have a 518.  And it is plum WORE OUT!  We are always jury rigging that winch (and other parts).
I lost my radiator and have been having to run the 518.  Can't wait to have mine running again.
yes sir. its really a clark winch and the same as on some tiger cats.

coxy

on my 518 the back side of the tranny is not drilled for the oil line to run a cat winch or a  Lufkin winch   down by the rotor/foot brake there is a hydro line(you have to take off to change the brake pads/caliper) that powers the newer winches  and the older trannys are not drilled for that line other wise I would have put a cat winch on there I'm not shur if you could put a Lufkin on the older style 518 the way the fuel tank is you fill the tank in the back by the arch and the mounting plate is different I think they are longer cause the 518c had a long frame I could be wrong its been about a year since I looked every thing over   Spartan what year 518 do you have mine is the early model  81 with the dimond roll cage and the 3304 that had glow plugs it runs great but its like a mack truck when you start up hill it don't stop but it slower than snail snot  ;D       treeslayer2003 what do you mean by a reverse box

HiTech

I believe on the Master Controller there is a pinhole inside. I can't remember exactly where but if it gets plugged the winch will not work properly. Also I have seen gears in the drop box, if so equipped, bind up. The bearings or shafts that hold them wear, normally from lack of gear lube. These will lock a winch under load. The drop box was an ad on and there are 3 gears inside. Without these ad on drop boxes the shafts powering them would have too much of an angle. Then the u-joints wouldn't last.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: coxy on May 01, 2016, 06:21:37 AM
on my 518 the back side of the tranny is not drilled for the oil line to run a cat winch or a  Lufkin winch   down by the rotor/foot brake there is a hydro line(you have to take off to change the brake pads/caliper) that powers the newer winches  and the older trannys are not drilled for that line other wise I would have put a cat winch on there I'm not shur if you could put a Lufkin on the older style 518 the way the fuel tank is you fill the tank in the back by the arch and the mounting plate is different I think they are longer cause the 518c had a long frame I could be wrong its been about a year since I looked every thing over   Spartan what year 518 do you have mine is the early model  81 with the dimond roll cage and the 3304 that had glow plugs it runs great but its like a mack truck when you start up hill it don't stop but it slower than snail snot  ;D       treeslayer2003 what do you mean by a reverse box
coxy i ask cuz i herd a cat pto turns engine direction. i have an s8 IH that turns engine direction. i have a good clark winch here but clarks pto turns opposite direction. i know clarks with a gearmatic have a reverse box on the winch. see where i'm going? like to get rid of the gearmatic.

Ed_K

 The only time I had a problem with not releasing was when part of the brake band fiber unglued and slide under the piece still glued on, took me a long time to figure it out as if I just looked at the band, it looked ok. I finally pulled it of and saw what was going on. Got the jb weld out and haven't had a problem for a couple yrs.
Ed K

lumberjack48

  I would watch whats going on with the cover off.  Hook on to something it can't pull, and have somebody else run the winch while you watch whats going on inside of the winch. Pull until its bound up and will not release, then crack the line open that works the brake band. If it releases you know the master control isn't working like it should.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

coxy

Quote from: lumberjack48 on May 01, 2016, 11:32:56 AM
  I would watch whats going on with the cover off.  Hook on to something it can't pull, and have somebody else run the winch while you watch whats going on inside of the winch. Pull until its bound up and will not release, then crack the line open that works the brake band. If it releases you know the master control isn't working like it should.
I thought about that but I think is going to bind up any way with out that out side cover on to hold that outer bearing this letting the drum cockoff side ways wont it

Plankton

That's what it does on mine,I think the inner bearing is gone the drum sags with the cover off and it won't freewheel.

Is it possible to bind it up then pop the cover off see what's happening?

lumberjack48

  The shaft shouldn't drop at all or maybe a few thousands of an inch. I ran-em with the cover off many, many times to find out what wasn't working right.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

jonesjco

Does the problem you describe occur when you are winching in and if so does it stop winching when you release the handle or do you have to stop the PTO to get it to stop winching in?? If this is the case your primary clutch is traveling too far on the half moon adjusters and then is getting hung up and wont return I had one do this and was downright dangerous when pulling a big load the primary has to travel farther on the adjusters to make the secondary fully engage, as someone else mentioned take the side cover off and just turn the input shaft over by hand or with a pipe wrench, with the lever engaged in the winch position you will see how the primary band travels on the adjusters once it starts to engage the secondary you wont be able to turn it by hand anymore. when all the slack is taken out look to see how close to the adjuster the end of the band is if its close turning by hand with the PTO power the adjuster will ride up the band and jam it. if this is the case remove the band from the winch, cut a little bit of the lining off on that end and weld a piece of 3/8 key stock across the end of the band this has to be done carefully so as to not melt the bonding on the band just weld a little then cool it and repeat. This will cut down the travel of the primary bands.
Gearmatic: 9 little letters that spell big aggravation

coxy

it doesn't keep winching it will freespool great with no load or half load just as soon as you start picking the wheels off the ground it wont release you have to roll the skidder back so there is no pressure on it then it works fine if you go around a sharp turn and the logs get bound and tries to tip you over your screwed it will not release that is why I had to cut the cable with the logs winched up I got stuck between to trees and could not go forward or backwards      I was also told that the shoe that is in the cover with the hex bolts my be hitting the brake bands and under heavy load its not letting them move back  I changed that cover due to the bearing spinning in side the old cover you could take the 3/4 head bolts out and the cover would fall of with out having to use the 2 bolts for a puller   thanks for the PM I'm shur ill be in touch   thanks every one for the input

John Woodworth

When you had the control apart did you put the long plunger to brake and short to clutch?
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

John Woodworth

Forget to ad, long to clutch, short to brk. You can test the control unit for leakage by removing the fitting from control and putting in a pipe plug.
Two Garret 21 skidders, Garret 10 skidder, 580 Case Backhoe, Mobile Dimension sawmill, 066, 046 mag, 044, 036mag, 034, 056 mag, 075, 026, lewis winch

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