Oregon H72 Chain Alternatives

[msal]

The short version:

I'm looking for a non anti-kickback chain that is equivalent to an Oregon H72 chain that will fit on a Remington Rodeo (RM5118R). I know I need a .325" pitch, .050 gauge, and 72 drive links (I think). The chain is for an 18" bar. I think I am also looking for a semi-chisel chain - I'm doing a lot of scavenging and I've read this type of chain won't dull as quick as a full chisel chain. A lot of the chains I am seeing look right, but then something like the drive links is off, or I read the comments and see that it's for a 20" bar. Any suggestions?

And the really long version (maybe this should be in it's own thread, but oh well ;D):

I bought a Remington Rodeo (RM5118R) last Spring and have cut about 3+ cord of firewood with it so far. I got into the habit of sharpening the chain by hand whenever I fill up my gas and oil. It came with an Oregon H72 chain, which is still on there. Toward the end of last season and this Spring, the saw doesn't seem to be cutting well at all. I find myself trying to force it quite a bit which is not great. By 'not well', the saw just grinds away not making a whole lot of progress, and binds up from time to time. The saw is also pretty darn heavy which takes it's toll on me when it's not cutting well.

I found myself wondering if it was my technique, the saw itself, or maybe the chain. My neighbor let me borrow his backup saw, an Echo CS-510. He has a 'pro' chain on it, instead of the anti-kickback chain I have on the Remington. Switching between this saw and the Remington is like night and day. I am so much more comfortable, quick, less fatigued, and probably a heck of a lot safer using the Echo despite the non-anti kickback chain. The saw also seems to weigh much less than the Remington. When I switch back to it, it's like picking up lead. I also ran a test with each saw, cutting straight thin cuts on a large log. I found that the Remington would start cutting at a pretty aggressive angle away from me an inch or two into the cut, where the Echo would cut straight and true. I figure either I sharpened the chain unevenly, or the weight of the remington (it seems pretty unbalanced also IMO) is causing me to cut unevenly.

I am thinking the performance has to do with the chain. When I was sharpening the chain, I wasn't filing down the rakers (I think that's what they're called) as I went. This probably explains why the saw no longer has any 'bite'. I tried filing these down with a flat file I had kicking around, and it felt like I wasn't making any progress. Regardless, after some research I think I would rather avoid the anti-kickback chains altogether. I use have (and use) PPE gear, and I'm very aware about my own safety. To me it seems more dangerous having to use a chain that's going to cut slower and make me tired.

So my plan is to put a new non anti-kickback chain on the Remington and give it a go. The weight of the saw is something I can't change. If using the Echo is still like night vs. day, I may be looking at a new saw in my future... I've read some good things about the Echo CS-590s...heh. The last thing I want to do though is buy a new saw, then have the same problem because I'm just terrible at sharpening my chain and creating my own problems! Posting all of this because I am looking for any input. I'm also curious how you guys think the Echo CS-590 would stand up to the older CS-510.

[John Mc]

It does sound as though you've got om chain sharpening issues, and possibly some uneven bar wear. It's not tough to learn, and there are some good gauges and guides out there that can help. It might be worth just taking the saw somewhere that you are confident that they know what they are doing, and have them sharpen your chain, set the raker heights, and true up your bar. If it cuts significantly better, you know you've got some work to do on your sharpening technique.

As for .050 gauge .325 pitch chain, I generally use full chisel chain like the Oregon 20LPX. If you want a semi-chisel chain, try the Oregon 20BPX. 

Yes, a semi-chisel doesn't dull quite as quickly as a full chisel chain, particularly if you are cutting dirty wood. When both are sharp, the full chisel will cut faster.  Keep in mind that running semi-chisel is not a substitute for learning to sharpen the chain properly. Continuing to cut with either type of chain when dull is harder on both you and your equipment (for example, it could be contributing to uneven bar wear which may be what is causing your saw to cut in circles).

[thecfarm]

The chain should really pull itself into the wood. You should be able to just hold on the rear handle and the saw should go into the wood all by itself.
I had a real hard time when I first started to sharpen by hand. My saw would pull to one side too. I finally figured it out. Somehow when I sharpen I can file better on one side than the other. I take 1-2 more strokes when the saw head is on the right. I know it sounds odd,but been doing it this way for more than 30 years and I have cut some trees over 3 feet across many,many times. So I must be doing something right.
There are devices to hold the file and to check your rakers to. Those can be a big help to getting things just right. Mark the chain so you know here you started,and count your stokes with the file. Make sure the file is cutting too. I buy files by the box,dozen,at a time. When I need a sharp file,I have one.

[msal]

It does sound as though you've got om chain sharpening issues, and possibly some uneven bar wear. It's not tough to learn, and there are some good gauges and guides out there that can help. It might be worth just taking the saw somewhere that you are confident that they know what they are doing, and have them sharpen your chain, set the raker heights, and true up your bar. If it cuts significantly better, you know you've got some work to do on your sharpening technique.

As for .050 gauge .325 pitch chain, I generally use full chisel chain like the Oregon 20LPX. If you want a semi-chisel chain, try the Oregon 20BPX. 

Yes, a semi-chisel doesn't dull quite as quickly as a full chisel chain, particularly if you are cutting dirty wood. When both are sharp, the full chisel will cut faster.  Keep in mind that running semi-chisel is not a substitute for learning to sharpen the chain properly. Continuing to cut with either type of chain when dull is harder on both you and your equipment (for example, it could be contributing to uneven bar wear which may be what is causing your saw to cut in circles).

Thanks for the info! I hadn't considered that the bar might be part of the problem. If it is, I could still be cutting at an angle after a new chain. I'll have to call around to see where I can get the bar/chain up to snuff, there are a few places nearby that come to mind. Hopefully I can bring it somewhere this weekend.

The chain should really pull itself into the wood. You should be able to just hold on the rear handle and the saw should go into the wood all by itself.
I had a real hard time when I first started to sharpen by hand. My saw would pull to one side too. I finally figured it out. Somehow when I sharpen I can file better on one side than the other. I take 1-2 more strokes when the saw head is on the right. I know it sounds odd,but been doing it this way for more than 30 years and I have cut some trees over 3 feet across many,many times. So I must be doing something right.
There are devices to hold the file and to check your rakers to. Those can be a big help to getting things just right. Mark the chain so you know here you started,and count your stokes with the file. Make sure the file is cutting too. I buy files by the box,dozen,at a time. When I need a sharp file,I have one.

The Echo is working like that. Honestly it's working better than I ever remember the Remington working, even brand new. I think the extra weight really bothers me as well, but I'm not ready to give up on the saw just yet because of that.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm sharpening unevenly. I count my strokes and use the same hand on both sides, but I can still tell that sometimes I apply unequal pressure.

Thanks guys!

[Texas-Jim]

you can dress the bar up, before buying a new one. To be honest a heavier saw in therory should cut faster simply because theres more weight. Well on a vertical cut any way. If you tried a new chain and its cutting fine then its you. Sharpening is a skill and a art, it can take a while be good at it. Just go have it sharpened on machine and see if it cuts ok. Last note, do you file the rakers off? If not even a sharp chain wont cut well.

[msal]

you can dress the bar up, before buying a new one. To be honest a heavier saw in therory should cut faster simply because theres more weight. Well on a vertical cut any way. If you tried a new chain and its cutting fine then its you. Sharpening is a skill and a art, it can take a while be good at it. Just go have it sharpened on machine and see if it cuts ok. Last note, do you file the rakers off? If not even a sharp chain wont cut well.

I was not filing the rakers, which explains a lot of what I was experiencing (rookie mistake haha, oh well). Hoping to get the chain sharpened somewhere this weekend, and have them look at the bar. I still plan to sharpen from hand after, but I'm going to go ahead and buy a depth gauge tool ASAP before and start filing the rakers every 3-4 I sharpen the chain thereafter.

I noticed the chain has 2 adjacent rakers, one slightly higher than the other. Based on what I read this is only the case on anti-kickback chains. Should I take any special care when filing these down? It seems like eventually the adjacent rakers will be at the same height, which is not intended...

Regarding the weight - I looked up some dry weights. It looks like my Remington has a dry weight of 17.5 lbs, compared to something like a CS-590 or Rancher 455 which has a dry weight of 13.3 lbs. I guess the weight difference wasn't just in my head!

[SawTroll]

Is H72 one of the new designations that Oregon use for sale in "box stores"?

[msal]

Is H72 one of the new designations that Oregon use for sale in "box stores"?

It came stock on my Remington (RM5118R). I ordered the saw from Amazon, but they also sell it at the box stores. My guess is yes.

[DelawhereJoe]

That H72 is the Oregon part # its a micro-chisel chain 20bpx takes a 3/16" file (according to Oregon's website). Most of the box stores sell a 5/32" file for .325 so you could have the wrong size file too.

[msal]

That H72 is the Oregon part # its a micro-chisel chain 20bpx takes a 3/16" file (according to Oregon's website). Most of the box stores sell a 5/32" file for .325 so you could have the wrong size file too.

I've got a 3/16" file for sure, so I think I'm set there. Good to know about the chain itself - if you don't mind me asking, how did you figure that out about the H72? I don't see an H72 listed anywhere on the Oregon site. They even list out what each acronym stands for, but I don't see 'H' anywhere. Am I just looking in the wrong place? The only actual specs I can find on the chain are listed on HD.

[SawTroll]

That H72 is the Oregon part # its a micro-chisel chain 20bpx takes a 3/16" file (according to Oregon's website). Most of the box stores sell a 5/32" file for .325 so you could have the wrong size file too.

I've got a 3/16" file for sure, so I think I'm set there. Good to know about the chain itself - if you don't mind me asking, how did you figure that out about the H72? I don't see an H72 listed anywhere on the Oregon site. They even list out what each acronym stands for, but I don't see 'H' anywhere. Am I just looking in the wrong place? The only actual specs I can find on the chain are listed on HD.

I looked at the Oregon site today as well, before I posted, but it looks like they already have abandoned (as they should) the numbering system that H72 is part of.

As I understand it, what you really have is 20BPX-72, and a 3/16" file is correct for that chain.

[DelawhereJoe]

Also remember to sharpen at a 30° with a 10° up angle for that chain too (according to Oregon). You can also find an oregon saw chain pdf with all this info on it.

[OldJack]

There was a chart on the Oregon site that cross-referenced the "box store" and pro chain numbers. It still might be hiding somewhere as the Oregon site is highly disorganized. What I did find is new packaging and more chains like 20LPX  in those consumer packages.
http://content.yudu.com/web/y5b2/0A1k7eb/OregonBigCatalog2016/flash/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=#noRedirect

Go to page 105 of this dreadful catalogue.

[OldJack]

It looks like the link to the old conversion chart is dead.
http://www.oregonproducts.com/homeowner/products/chain/consumer_sawchain_loops.htm

[SawTroll]

......

Go to page 105 of this dreadful catalogue.

No thanks, I have been going around in that mess before, and don't want to do it again.

The special "box store" coding seem to be gone, and thanks for that!


....except for you know what in the future...  ;D

[msal]

I couldn't agree more about the Oregon catalog, not fun to navigate in the least bit!

I answered my question regarding filing the adjacent rakers I mentioned in an earlier post. According to Oregon's FAQ (https://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/service/faq.htm) you should not file the bumper link, which is the lower of the two adjacent depth gauges I was looking at. You guys probably already know this, but if some rookie like me wanders in here later he will have an answer  . I'm still wondering what happens if the depth gauge gets to the same height as the bumper link. Perhaps once you get that low it's time for a new chain anyways.

[HolmenTree]

I'm still wondering what happens if the depth gauge gets to the same height as the bumper link. Perhaps once you get that low it's time for a new chain anyways.

I have a pic somewhere of a speciality chain made in the mid 1960's . It had no depth gauge on the cutter but had the ramp on top of the  drive link same as a LP chain.
I always wanted to cut the depth gauges off a old LPX chain and see how it would cut like that. Off course have the cutters filed back so there's about .025 clearance at the top of the ramp.

[lumberjack48]

HolmenTree, as you know i used a 5/32 file. I would run the LPX until the teeth stated breaking off. And to answer your question, i had to start filing the humps to maintain 0.30 on the raker.

[DelawhereJoe]

Looking around online yes you can find a non saftey, semi chisel chain in 72 drive links. Full chisel will cut better/faster but dull faster in the dirty salvage wood you say you will be cutting. Could be best to pick yourself up a few chains of different types so cover all your cutting needs and be on hand in the event you put your chain into a rock.

[joe_indi]

Stihl 25RM  72 drive links should be okay.

[SawTroll]

There was a chart on the Oregon site that cross-referenced the "box store" and pro chain numbers. It still might be hiding somewhere as the Oregon site is highly disorganized. What I did find is new packaging and more chains like 20LPX  in those consumer packages.
http://content.yudu.com/web/y5b2/0A1k7eb/OregonBigCatalog2016/flash/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=#noRedirect

Go to page 105 of this dreadful catalogue.

Changed my mind about not going there again - and that's what I didn't find! 

That does of course mean that the silly system still is active.   :(

[msal]

I think we've decided that my current chain (Oregon H72) is the same as a 20BPX072G (micro-chisel, anti-kickback) chain.

I ended up ordering a 20LPX072G (full chisel, no anti-kickback) chain. The plan is to use this chain for a little bit, and get the current chain sharpened professionally. Then I can try both out. The next time I sharpen by hand I'll be using a depth gauge, so hopefully I won't end up cutting in circles again  :D.

[motohed]

You can bring the chain back by hand , it will take a little work . Find the worst tooth and sharpen it use a vernier or tape measure and measure the tooth . You can file them all too the same length and then use you raker guage to file them down and your done .

[SawTroll]

You can bring the chain back by hand , it will take a little work . Find the worst tooth and sharpen it use a vernier or tape measure and measure the tooth . You can file them all too the same length and then use you raker guage to file them down and your done .

Yes, except that it mostly doesn't matter much if a couple of cutters are left shorter than the others, provided you use a raker guide that sets the rakers to each individual cutter (not the kind that rides on two cutters).

[John Mc]

Yes, except that it mostly doesn't matter much if a couple of cutters are left shorter than the others, provided you use a raker guide that sets the rakers to each individual cutter (not the kind that rides on two cutters).
[/quote]

Agreed. Using that style of depth gauge allows a whole lot more tolerance for cutter of different length. I use this type:
    

The kind that come with the roller file guide works well also.


The kind that lays flat across two or more cutters do require you to keep your cutter lengths equal (they also tend not to adjust the raker height as well as the cutter get shorter and shorter).

[SawTroll]

Yes, you got it right! 

[msal]

Ah, glad you guys brought this up, I was wondering what the differences were between the gauges and it makes more sense now.

[John Mc]

Ah, glad you guys brought this up, I was wondering what the differences were between the gauges and it makes more sense now.

Those shown in the first two pictures "customize" the rakers to each cutter they are associated with. The ones in the last picture sort of "average" the raker over 2 or more cutters. Personally, I think the top one in the bottom picture is the worst type to use. If one tooth it longer than the other, the tool sits at a slant and throws the depth gauge setting way off. Both only work well if the teeth are all the same length.

[SawTroll]

Those shown in the first two pictures "customize" the rakers to each cutter they are associated with. The ones in the last picture sort of "average" the raker over 2 or more cutters. Personally, I think the top one in the bottom picture is the worst type to use. If one tooth it longer than the other, the tool sits at a slant and throws the depth gauge setting way off. Both only work well if the teeth are all the same length.

There is no doubt about that - the one at the very bottom isn't quite as bad.

[John Mc]

Those shown in the first two pictures "customize" the rakers to each cutter they are associated with. The ones in the last picture sort of "average" the raker over 2 or more cutters. Personally, I think the top one in the bottom picture is the worst type to use. If one tooth it longer than the other, the tool sits at a slant and throws the depth gauge setting way off. Both only work well if the teeth are all the same length.

There is no doubt about that - the one at the very bottom isn't quite as bad.

Agreed. The one on the bottom at least "averages" the two cutters it rests on. The upper one in that bottom picture tends to magnify an error in raker height caused by a difference in cutter length.

[msal]

I'm having trouble finding a good depth gauge for a .325" pitch. Any suggestions? I checked a couple of the sponsors and on Amazon. Most of the ones I am coming across are for 3/8" pitch.

This one looks decent enough: http://www.amazon.com/Husqvarna-Depth-Gauge-Narrow-Chainsaw/dp/B001W09WAG/ref=sr_1_2?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1463016066&sr=1-2&keywords=.325+depth+gauge

However, the listing says .325" while the image clearly says it's for 3/8".

Edit: The part # in the listing seems to match up with the part number on the Husqvarna site, so I'm thinking the picture is just wrong.

[John Mc]

On the Husqvarna website, they only have an image of the 3/8 pitch depth gauge with a .404 gauge next to it (see this link). You choose the actual depth gauge you want from a drop down menu (.325", 3/8", .404", 3/8" Mini), but the image remains the same.

The Amazon link you showed uses the exact same image. I'm betting they just copied the image from the Husky site.

The part number shown on your Amazon link is correct for .325" chain: 505 69 81-00. The part number for the 3/8" tool would end in "-01".

[SawTroll]

However, the listing says .325" while the image clearly says it's for 3/8".

Edit: The part # in the listing seems to match up with the part number on the Husqvarna site, so I'm thinking the picture is just wrong.

Sounds like the right one, but if you need the .325 NK (Pixel) one or the regular one depends on what exact chain model is in question. Each model of guide is made for specific models of Oregon chain - and it will vary how well they work on other chain models. What chain are you using?

Pictures in ads some times are "generic", and not showing the exact product in question.

[SawTroll]

.....

Agreed. The one on the bottom at least "averages" the two cutters it rests on. The upper one in that bottom picture tends to magnify an error in raker height caused by a difference in cutter length.

At least the errors will be larger than with the other one.

[msal]

Sounds like the right one, but if you need the .325 NK (Pixel) one or the regular one depends on what exact chain model is in question. Each model of guide is made for specific models of Oregon chain - and it will vary how well they work on other chain models. What chain are you using?

I'm now using a 20LPX072G 72 Drive Link Super 20 Chain, 0.325" (full-chisel). My old chain is a 20BPX072G (micro-chisel, anti-kickback). What do you think? Hoping I can sharpen them both with a single file.

Oh, I used the new chain over the weekend on the Remington. Cuts great, and I'm cutting straight on. My issues were definitely related to the chain being poorly sharpened. The extra weight is still really bothering me though compared to the CS-510. A lot of the wood I'm cutting is 'scavenged' wood, not in optimal conditions. I end up holding the saw a lot while I move stuff out of the way, etc. If I were just walking my way down a downed log bucking as I go I don't think the weight would bother me so much.

[DelawhereJoe]

Well the more you dislike a saw the faster you will end up hating to use it, start looking around for the saw you want and when the time is right buy it. You'll know the time is right when the price matches up to what you want to spend. Just find the one that will suit the majority of your cutting needs, for me it is a 60cc saw, but I just cut firewood.  Other pro guys need much larger saws. The Echo timber wolf is a 60cc class saw and runs about $400, thats a good deal on a saw, several ppl here have many good things to say for it.

[John Mc]

I'm now using a 20LPX072G 72 Drive Link Super 20 Chain, 0.325" (full-chisel). My old chain is a 20BPX072G (micro-chisel, anti-kickback). What do you think? Hoping I can sharpen them both with a single file.

Yes, the both sharpen with the same file, though Oregon recommends slightly different angles for them: 30˚ for the BPX and 25˚ for the LPX. I've attached Oregon's info sheets for both of these chains which show the recommended angles.

[msal]

Yes, the both sharpen with the same file, though Oregon recommends slightly different angles for them: 30˚ for the BPX and 25˚ for the LPX. I've attached Oregon's info sheets for both of these chains which show the recommended angles.

Awesome, thanks!

[SawTroll]

I'm now using a 20LPX072G 72 Drive Link Super 20 Chain, 0.325" (full-chisel). My old chain is a 20BPX072G (micro-chisel, anti-kickback). What do you think? Hoping I can sharpen them both with a single file.

....

You can use the same file (4.8mm) and the same Husky guide (the standard .325 one, not the NK one).

[CTYank]

Another option for filing guide: Granberg "File-N-Joint" tool, $30 at NT: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308557_200308557. Enables precision filing of a wide variety of saw chain- just use file size to suit, use a flat file to set depth-gauge hts. Still using same one for 40+ yrs.

For most saws/woods, you want the depth gauges .025" below the cutters- not suitable for eye-crometer. OTOH there's a lot of pseudo-precision about how to set them, and how to get cutters precisely the same length. IMO, waste of time & effort. Main thing is to get all the cutters sharp, starting with the area where they enter the wood, then check a random sample with depth-gauge tool that sits on two cutters.

If you sense the file hitting the depth gauges, use a flat file in the Granberg guide with an initial setting of .025". If that's not taking a thick enough chip (or dust) go for .030". You could go for more, at risk of physical injury. Once you get them cutting right, they shouldn't need much ongoing attention, just don't randomly file the depth gauges down. (Make your guide setting based on an eyeball-average-length cutter.)

Some assert that you have to progressively take down the depth-gauge-ht as the cutters wear back. Might be, just haven't seen evidence of that over hundreds of chains over 40+ yrs. Ready to be proven wrong. (Yes I've seen the Pioneer graphics about how the cutters rock on entering the cut.) IME, .025"-.030" based on an average cutter works fine. Reasonable consistency is important IMO.

Using a Granberg file guide, I've had great results giving each cutter a stroke or so each 2nd fillup. The whole idea is not to sharpen dull chains, rather to keep chains sharp.