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The Start of a new error Chain saw mill

Started by JohnWaynee, April 27, 2016, 11:19:57 AM

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JohnWaynee

Good morning friends, sawyers and fellow wood workers.

Let me take this moment to introduce myself. 

New to the wood working industry,  Due to a job change a few years back i had the opportunity to work for several months in a wood shop building table and outside kitchens.  While that endeavor did not work out i did gain some knowledge and love of working wood.  I really enjoyed the making of large single slab table and large book matched tops.  Then readying about the working of sawmills and such and planing to build my own i ran across this forum and Chainsaw mills. 

So after much research and web searching,  I have decided that i need to own a wide slabber in the form of a Chainsaw mill. 

So here is my rough plan.  72" Bar should give me about 63-65" of cutting width powered by a 10hp electric motor.  Plan on building the carrage so that i can add another motor on the other end of the bar down the road if needed.  really should not be needed,  but i do feel that it would increase the speed of cut running 2 motors slaved together. 

Track and bed will be welded from 1/2" x 4" flat iron plus some boxing and bracing with 2x2 square tubing. 

Carriage will be made from 2x2 and 1-1/2" square tubing as well. 

Seeing that support equiment will be limited the bed will be keep as close to the ground as possible.  6-10" high max.  As a ramp will have to be fab to roll the logs into place with a winch and small tractor.  Would love to be able to add a forklift in the next few years. 

Most of the material are on hand and i should be the proud owner of a CSM by the first part of June. 

I will be sure to do my best to document my progress and supply pictures as i am able.  Would love to hear some ideas for add on's that will make life easier.  I know i have left off most of the plans as this is only the rough plan. So feel free to let me know any mistakes that you made and i should avoid. 

Would love to have a lucis or Paterson but money is an object and i should be able to finish this for less than $5K.  I am hoping for closer to $3K

Levi

mad murdock

Welcome JohnWaynee! Sounds like a good project.  Logosol has an electric powered option on their CSM's, which is really fast, though it is no where near 63-64" cut capacity.  Just make sure you use chain that can handle the torque/hp you will be putting into it.  a 10HP electric motor is pretty big. 
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

JohnWaynee

Thanks,  I was planing on going with 404 skip.  Not sure if I have seen any bigger chain that is readily available. 

Levi

WV Sawmiller

   I confess I know almost nothing about a CSM. I guess I always thought of them as mobile mills you took into the woods or jungle and cut slabs or boards from fallen giants where they lay.

   Your discussion of electric power sounds like a stationary set up to me. Is that correct or will you move the mill to the tree? If you are actually bringing the logs to the mill what kind of support equipment do you need? I envision cranes and flatbed trucks, big loaders to move the slabs etc. Am I correct? Please update with more details of the planned operation.

    By the way, how do you plane/sand big sections like that?
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

I'm no help with your CSM build, but Welcome to the Forestry Forum, JohnWaynee.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

plowboyswr

Welcome to the forum. Keep us updated  on the build.  :P
Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

JohnWaynee

WV sawmiller,  yes you are correct.  This will be a stationary mill setup.  I suppose that it could be made mobile if you have a generator larger enough to run the motor but then that kinda defeats the purpose of going electric. 

To move the large trees to the mill will be my biggest issue.  Most of the trees that i have lined up to start with are on farms and such with large tractor and loaders.  That will be used to load them on my trailer,  once home they will have to be handled the old hard way.  Rolling and draging.  We do have a a few smaller tractors to help with this.  I know this is not the best way and the dirt will have to be cleaned or the chain will dull quickly.  But it is the best i can do to get started.  Would love to add a 8000lb forklift once the funds are available. 

As to the slabs,  yes they are very heavy and will have to be handled with forks on our smaller tractors. 

As to the flating,  I will be using a router plan method.  also my buddy had a 50" wide drum sander that could be used if needed.  but the router plan should be more than enough then just a nice sanding with a orbital sander up to 220 grit or so. 

I am also dreaming about building a trailer, think very large log arch.  That will allow me to pick up a 72" tree 8 or 10' long and transport it back home. I  know this is a hard project to handle that kinda weight, but I'm still dreaming.  This would also allow me to just place the log on the mill directly.  no more dirt.  Also have my eye out for a propane tank mover.  they seem to be just about what i am looking to build. 

Levi

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: JohnWaynee on April 28, 2016, 08:51:08 AM
I am also dreaming about building a trailer, think very large log arch.  That will allow me to pick up a 72" tree 8 or 10' long and transport it back home. I  know this is a hard project to handle that kinda weight, but I'm still dreaming.  This would also allow me to just place the log on the mill directly.  no more dirt.  Also have my eye out for a propane tank mover.  they seem to be just about what i am looking to build. 

Levi

Levi,

   Thanks for info. Check sales threads here on the FF as Raym had a propane tank mover log arch for sale if he hasn't sold it yet and not too far to transport it. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Ljohnsaw

Welcome and looking forward to viewing your progress. 

You mentioned using 1/2" x 4" bar stock for your rails.  Pretty hefty stuff!  Do you already have it or cheaply available?  That's a lot of steel.  I used 2"x3"x¼" angle for my rails, sitting upright (3" side vertical) on 2"x4"x¼" box tube.  If I did it over, I would probably do 3/16" on the box tube to lighten it up a bit.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

thecfarm

JohnWaynee,welcome to the forum. Looking forward to seeing those slabs!!!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

JohnWaynee

LjohnSaw

yes the 1/2" by 4" Flat stock is fairly cheap compared to the rest of the build.  And to be honest I have been some concerned about that holding up.  A 6 foot wide 8-10 foot long log will be in the 8-10000 range for weight.  now true i will rarely see any log that large.  I think most will be in the 36" to 50" range.  but the price is right and I think it will hold up just fine with plenty of concrete supports under it. 

Looking forward to starting and getting it up and running.  will be sure to take lots of pictures. 

Levi

jimdad07

Welcome to the FF.

Sounds like an interesting build.  A bar that long will want to sag in the middle, you can set up a strong magnet in the middle on a rod to hold the bar up until it enters the cut.  Another thing for the bar you REALLY need is an oiler for the nose and one for chain at the motor end of the bar.  Good luck, should work out nice for you.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

Hiway40frank

I dont meen to rain on you parade, but I just ordered a lucas 6-14 and the slabber attachment. While ordering I noticed that they sell a dedicated slabber for 5k so its just an idea to buy instead of build. If  you plan on doing this for income by time the csm is done in say june the lucas mill would have paid for itself.  On the other hand I am a die hard DYI guy and would love to see you build a mill and you could do it for a lot less that 3k, but when it comes to income I would always just buy the product and start making money.

Kbeitz

For my frame my boat trailer had 4" channel. I stood on end another 4" channel and
then layed another 4" channel flat with the points up. My wheels ride on the points.
So I have 3 - 4" channels on each side.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Brad_bb

Welcome JohnWaynee(Levi),
I have struggled with stationary versus mobile myself with my band mill.  I'm stationary most of the time.  I own a gas engine mill though and it's inside.  I have to keep the door open to mill.  I've also recently come to the realization that I need more and different support equipment than I'd thought.  My little forklift is great, but falls short when it comes to the large logs like white oak 36" dia and more than 12 feet long.

Here is what it boils down too.  A stationary CSM set up like you are talking about requires a large investment in support equipment.  A machine big enough to move large logs at the mill, a trailer that can transport such logs, a truck that can pull said trailer, and a way of loading logs on the trailer.  The costs of these items will far outweigh the cost of your mill, either home built or commercial purchase.

The alternative is to be mobile, like the granberg mill, with a large chainsaw.  Not only does this allow you to move from log to log without heavy duty equipment, you end up breaking the logs down to slabs that are manageable with a smaller forklift.  A smaller forklift is less likely to sink on soft ground, easier to store inside, costs less, uses less fuel etc, is more maneuverable,  and can be transported to a site.  You can break down logs onsite and load the slabs on the trailer.  That makes the load more stable and easier to handle. 

The lower investment of the portable CSM lets you ease your way into this niche so you don't commit too much up front while you are testing your marketing skills.  I know a guy on the east cost to started out with a small CSM doing smaller logs for people.  After doing that for a year, he then decided to get a band mill too. He does both now depending on the log procurement situation.  He doesn't have enough support equipment so If he's found a log or logs off site, he can CSM them and easily haul the broken down lumber.

I'm suggesting that you consider this approach.  Start out small (though I wouldn't call a 72" CSM small) and get some experience to help find the direction you should go.  Mill with a mobile CSM and see if you can make money to pay for additional equipment.  I have been guilty of spending too much up front and regretting it.

I have a 60" CSM that I am about to start using for the first time on "Y" logs, logs too large in diameter for my band mill, and for curved pieces too wide for my band mill.  It will definitely make me more versatile in what I can do.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: JohnWaynee on April 29, 2016, 04:16:37 PM
LjohnSaw

yes the 1/2" by 4" Flat stock is fairly cheap compared to the rest of the build.  And to be honest I have been some concerned about that holding up.  A 6 foot wide 8-10 foot long log will be in the 8-10000 range for weight.  now true i will rarely see any log that large.  I think most will be in the 36" to 50" range.  but the price is right and I think it will hold up just fine with plenty of concrete supports under it. 

Looking forward to starting and getting it up and running.  will be sure to take lots of pictures. 

Levi

Maybe I misunderstood what you are using the flat stock for in your build.  I assumed it was going to be the long (on edge) rails (track) that your CSM will be riding on.  There would be very little weight on that.  However, your last comment makes me rethink that this will be used to support the log??  When I think of a CSM, I picture something like a swing mill - a light weight framework set up around the log which is sitting on the ground (or some timbers).  You cut and lower the mill head and cut again.  So, what is your mill going to look like? ???
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

JohnWaynee

Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 29, 2016, 06:50:29 PM
Quote from: JohnWaynee on April 29, 2016, 04:16:37 PM
LjohnSaw

yes the 1/2" by 4" Flat stock is fairly cheap compared to the rest of the build.  And to be honest I have been some concerned about that holding up.  A 6 foot wide 8-10 foot long log will be in the 8-10000 range for weight.  now true i will rarely see any log that large.  I think most will be in the 36" to 50" range.  but the price is right and I think it will hold up just fine with plenty of concrete supports under it. 

Looking forward to starting and getting it up and running.  will be sure to take lots of pictures. 

Levi

Maybe I misunderstood what you are using the flat stock for in your build.  I assumed it was going to be the long (on edge) rails (track) that your CSM will be riding on.  There would be very little weight on that.  However, your last comment makes me rethink that this will be used to support the log??  When I think of a CSM, I picture something like a swing mill - a light weight framework set up around the log which is sitting on the ground (or some timbers).  You cut and lower the mill head and cut again.  So, what is your mill going to look like? ???

guess i left that part off.  This mill will look much like a band saw mill.  there will be a bed that that logs will sit on.  that same bed will also be used to run the carrage on,  the carrage will hold the blade, motor and such.  it will raise and lower.  This seems to be like a more straight forward approach than the lucas or patterson mill where each end had to be ajusted. 

Just think if it like a band saw mill,  but i will be putting a large chainsaw bar on it.  As this seems like the easiest fix to be able to slab wide logs.

Levi

JohnWaynee

Guys thanks for all the input so far.  To be clear while I will be able to slab a very large log,  in all likelihood i would guess most logs will be under 30".  But I will have the ability to cut the larger logs when they show up.  I already have a large pecan log that has been down for a couple years  I would say in the 50" range.  im sure this will be one of my first test subjects. 

I understand the concern about and for the support equipment.  The funds are not there right now to get those,  my time if free to me.  and i wish to do this from home.  It will not be for a full time income, only for play/hunting/family vacation money.  So i can afford to start slow and do things the hard way for a while till more funds are available.

Also as stated i have in mind a trailer that will allow for the transport and positioning on the mill.  still in the dreaming part right now.  but could make life much easier.

Again thanks for the input and suggestions.  I have not just brushed them off.  each one is taken into consideration. 

Levi
 

Hiway40frank

What if you put a torsion axle with pins so when you get to a site you can drop the axle and put the rails as close to the ground as possible. This would be ideal because without a machine to move trees its will be a pain to get them over the rails let alone if they were 1-2 feet off the ground. That where the peterson/lucas deisign could save you a lot of time without having to buy a loader. If you do a dual rail you could set up around very large trees or just roll them uder the rails. It would take a bit more time but you end up with a lot more ease of use.

Slingshot


     Torsion axle is what I used on the trailer I made recently for an LT 10.
 

 



  

 

Kbeitz

I totally different idea....
Build your mill like a log arch. Drive the mill over the log and go to sawing...
No moveing the log what so ever...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

valley ranch


Kbeitz

I gotta stop thinking....
I got enough projects...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

JohnWaynee

Ok, guys,  was a little slow getting started, but the base frame is well under way.  here are a few photos of the progress. 

Here is the long runner layed out. 



 

Here is the cross peices. beveled the edges for better welding



 

Here are eh cross peices all beveled and ready to be welding in place.



  

Here we are making progress.  one side all welded up.  next is to weld it up to the other side. 



 

Here i have finished welding both side. 



 

Still need to square it all up.  it is really close now, just have a slight left to right bow in it.  Need to add some bracing and a coat of paint. 

Levi


POSTON WIDEHEAD

Look like its coming together John and looking really nice. Keep posting your progress.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

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