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OldJarheads Milling Thread...

Started by OlJarhead, April 06, 2016, 02:06:53 PM

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Peter Drouin

Good job, But all your BF number are all off.
2x6x17.5 is 17.5 bf not 18 bf. And your cutting 1 5/8x 5x5/8x17.5 that's 13.3
You're adding up air.
Don't feel bad Magicman dose the same thing.
Cut small lumber and figure full size on the BF.,
I know you work by the hour and not by the BF.
If you do work by the BF, Best be good on the adding thing, some customers are good at it and will not like paying for 1000bf and have 850 bf in the pile.

I mean no disrespect to you. In NH the whole timber thing. Logs or lumber, the numbers have to add up right.   
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

4x4American

In hardwoods I find the turbo 7's blow the non turbos 7's away.  In softwoods they seem pretty similar far as I can tell but I don't saw enough softwood and I'm not sitting there timing my cuts with different blades but they feel similar.
Boy, back in my day..

Ben Cut-wright

'Saw' that WoodMizer acknowledged your recent BF total.  Congratulations. 

OlJarhead

Quote from: Ben Cut-wright on April 12, 2017, 08:13:58 AM
'Saw' that WoodMizer acknowledged your recent BF total.  Congratulations.

They did?  Where?

2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

OlJarhead

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 12, 2017, 06:26:17 AM
Good job, But all your BF number are all off.
2x6x17.5 is 17.5 bf not 18 bf. And your cutting 1 5/8x 5x5/8x17.5 that's 13.3
You're adding up air.
Don't feel bad Magicman dose the same thing.
Cut small lumber and figure full size on the BF.,
I know you work by the hour and not by the BF.
If you do work by the BF, Best be good on the adding thing, some customers are good at it and will not like paying for 1000bf and have 850 bf in the pile.

I mean no disrespect to you. In NH the whole timber thing. Logs or lumber, the numbers have to add up right.

OK, Excel rounds off unless you force it to show the actual number but it adds/multiplies by the actual so by a simple change it shows the following:


 
Same total but correctly showing the decimal ;)

No disrespect taken.  I've long struggled with this but much of what I read seemed to lean towards going by the full dimension vs the nominal.  What makes it even worse is that many charge 1" for anything under 1" because it takes them longer to mill 3/4" than 1" and when I first got started I remember a discussion about the total on a pile of my lumber which I calculated true (milled to 3/4") vs at 1"......

Anyway, guess I struggle with this all the time because I agree that if it's 1 5/8" it should be calc'd that way but for some reason got it in my head that people didn't do that and I charge by the hour.

To add to the mess, some of what I milled was 1 5/8 x 12" and some was 2" x 12" -- all a bit of a mix because this customer is really 3 or 4 pooled together under one guy.  He wants all full dimension stuff for his timber framed gazebo but wants nominal widths and full depths on this shop lumber.  Meanwhile his cousin or brother and sister wanted nominal everything and so on.....so I had to mark what I was making from time to time so they knew to separate.

He wanted, for example, one 6x12 and two 5 5/8 x 12's.....15 @ 5 5/8 x 5 5/8s and 15 @ 6x6....I wrote them down as the same but marked them with my lumber crayon so they knew which was which.

Anyway, I guess I need to know who does what?  Easy enough to calc based on actual vs what we call it.
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

OlJarhead

Quote from: Ben Cut-wright on April 12, 2017, 08:13:58 AM
'Saw' that WoodMizer acknowledged your recent BF total.  Congratulations.

Ha!  Found it on FB :)  Thanks
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Gearbox

When you go to Big Box store do you buy a 2X4 or a 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 X 8 ? Still 3.3 BF .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

OlJarhead

Quote from: Gearbox on April 12, 2017, 09:26:26 AM
When you go to Big Box store do you buy a 2X4 or a 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 X 8 ? Still 3.3 BF .

You buy a KD 1.5x3.5 S4S actually....that started life as a 2x4 ;)

I don't' sell lumber nor charge by the board foot.  Just to be clear.  I charge by the hour, my totals are for information only and I record anything up to 1" as 1" (actually including 1 1/8")....at 1 5/8 I've called it 2".  I can change that easily enough, just thought that's what people did (way back convo made me think that)....of course it means a little more work for me since I mill all kinds of stuff (some customers want 2 1/8", some want milled at 2" so they get 1 7/8", some want 1 5/8 and so on -- I've milled all kinds) and rather than trying to record exactly what I was milling each new job I put down the nominal dimension and went with it...seemed easy in the field.

2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Magicman

I make no apology for my scaling or billing method.  My sawing contract that both the customer and I sign before the sawing job begins clearly states how the lumber will be scaled and billed.

Note that I do not buy logs nor sell lumber.  I sell a sawing service and I saw logs/lumber that meets the specifications of the customer.  Depending upon the job, I saw by both bf and hourly rate.  Whichever is cheaper for the customer is what I charge.  I will also sometimes quote a linear foot rate to give the customer a method of comparison: .20 for 2X4, .30 for 2X6, .40 for 2X8, .50 for 2X10, & .60 for 2X12.

I am in my 15th year of sawing and have never had a conflict regarding sawing or billing.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Andries

Not even gonna try to compete with the Big Box Store either.
One week I'm cranking out stair tread blanks at 10" by 24" by 60".
"No knots or checks please!"
Next week it's shelves at 4" by 20" by 48".
Then its 16' long slabs for a fake log wall.
"Use the logs with centre rot, ok?"
Next month it's half logs 40' long for roof decking.
"As wide as you can make it!"

Keeping track of board feet wouldn't make much sense. For both the customer and me.
By the hour, less paperwork and everybody is happy.
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

OlJarhead

I too use a contract but my contract is very simple.  It states what I charge, any additional charges and my terms (payment at completion of work performed or something to that effect).

I should put something in my rate card about calculating board footages I suppose but I don't do it other than for informational purposes in the field.  I also do not put it on my invoice.  I put down the hours milled, mileage and delivery and if any bands ran into foreign objects and or any per diem I charged.  That's it.

So for example this past weekend I milled for 16 hours (actually 16.5 but didn't bill for the last half hour for a few good reasons -- like my customer seeing my drive belt came off before I did! lol)....and billed for that 16 hours, mobile setup and delivery and mileage and that's it.

I do find it's tough keeping track of what's milled during the day but have a couple ways to make it easier.  1.  I mark with a lumber crayon the lumber produced at the end of the day (bottom and top of stacks usually and a few deep into it just to be sure).  Red and blue and alternate days.  That way when I look to see what's there I can see each day easily enough.  2.  Tally as you go.  If the customer, like this one, is stacking on a forklift I let them know I need a count before they take it away and tally in my notebook.

 
Like that.
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Andries

Quote from: OlJarhead on April 12, 2017, 10:13:41 AM
I should put something in my rate card about calculating board footages I suppose but I don't do it, other than for informational purposes in the field.  I also do not put it on my invoice. 

.... and I guess that's what I was trying to say.
We all mill under different conditions, types of customers, "sawyer gypsy" or stationary for years. etc etc.
Our paperwork and billing is as varied as the trade is.

As the biologist said: "a succesful critter adapts to where he is."   :D
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

OlJarhead

I like the kiss method ;)  Keep it simple.

Hourly works for me and seems to keep my customers happy too as it's easy to understand. 

My last customer had so many big logs he asked me to make deeper slabs and not worry too much about flitches unless they would yield 2x8's to 2x12's...can't say I minded.  He was happy :)
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

sealark37

Make sure that you have a clear understanding of the payment terms, including progress payments as well as final payment.  Good Luck.    Regards, Clark

OlJarhead

I told the customer I'd mill under contract with the lumber yard owner.  Same standard contract, payment due at the end of each weekend (I'll be milling weekends only)....that way when I leave I'm paid and no having to hunt down payments ;)
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

OlJarhead

Customer called and told me I should be getting a call from the lumber yard owner.  It's actually much closer than I though (maybe 10 miles away) and the guy has decided he wants a mix of 1x's, beams and other stuff all 12, 17.5 and 20'.

If he calls I'll give him my rate...if he wants it by the board foot I'll give him $350Mbf which should be better than I'm earning now but I don't do by the BF normally and figure there are too many factors that come into play to try giving him a lower rate...basically I need to earn my hourly rate and if I have to go by the bf I'll charge more to make sure I earn it ;)

My biggest worry milling by the bf is work slow downs with the help, unruly logs etc that end up taking longer.  Sure I'm mostly milling at or about 400bf/hr on these logs but if something happens and I'm dropping down to 200bf/hr I'd be making less (by enough that it matters to me)......

Might have to park the mill up there for a month ;) or more if he really wants it all.

2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Andries

Congrats!
Things are looking good for a busy month of weekends on the mill, and maybe a good chunk of the truck getting paid off.  8)

Like the man said:
Quote from: sealark37 on April 12, 2017, 01:46:51 PM
Make sure that you have a clear understanding of the payment terms, including progress payments as well as final payment.  Good Luck.    Regards, Clark

Seems like solid advice from someone who's been there.
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

Brucer

There are some conflicting opinions about how to calculate Board Feet.

Some people think you should measure the length (ft), width (in), and thickness (in) exactly, then multiply the three numbers and divide by 12. But what does "exactly" mean. And what if I saw a bunch of full dimension 1x8's and stack and sticker it, waiting for a customer. A customer comes by just after it's stacked and calculates the BF based on full 8" width. No problem. Another customer comes by a month later when the wood has dried and shrunk to 7-3/4" wide and wants to calculate the BF based on the actual width. Same wood (actually should be worth more because it's dry), but the customer expects to pay less. Naturally the customer who insists on the exact measurement for width and thickness doesn't expect to pay for the 3" trim allowance I add to my logs :D.

Other people think you should take the nominal dimension (e.g. a 1-½" x 3-½" piece of lumber has nominal dimensions of 2x4) and calculate the BF on that basis. If you follow this practice, you will inevitably meet people who accuse you of charging for "air".

Who's right? Well, the use of nominal dimensions is based on the concept of an "operational definition". The an operational definition defines a standard procedure that gives you consistent, reproducible results. For lumber the definition would say "multiply thickness (in) by width (ft) by length (ft) and this is how you measure them."

In Canada, the National Lumber Grades Authority provides the operational definition. Nominal thickness in inches mutliplied by nominal width in inches multiplied by length (in feet rounded down to a whole number) divided by 12. For 1" thick and less the calculation is simply nominal width multiplied by length (rounded down) divided by 12.

When I quote a board foot price I always tell the customer how I do the calculation and I give them the NLGA rule numbers (and show them the book if they want to see it). Most of the time I prefer to quote the different dimensions by the foot (timbers) or square foot (1" and less).

However ... before you accuse someone of charging for "air" (or worry about it if someone accuses you), just remember a couple of things.

  • I set my prices to earn a reasonable profit for the wood that I saw. No matter how I do the calculation, I'm going to earn "x" amount for a board.
  • Would you want to buy a coffee mug that wasn't full of "air"? How about a piece of pipe? :D

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

woodyone.john

OJH,I also charge by the hour plus  freight to and fro.I let it be known to the prospective  client that I will happily work with any labor or labor saving devices they have or choose to hire in order to get through the job quicker.I like them to know if they can get their stuff together its a win for them in terms of costs.After 15 years of charging by volume outturn and suffering from their inattention to detail, I might loose a few bucks by hourly rate, but now every job is a winner
cheers john
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

Peter Drouin

I use to travel and cut for years and always figure the BF. For me, I charge by the BF. All ways made more money that way. If you know how to set up a job.
I do buy logs now, and sell a lot of lumber.
No more traveling.  8)

We have new guys coming here and wanting to mill logs and sell lumber, Just want them to be good at the math. Cutting or selling, That's what it's all about. Know how to figure for lumber cut,
Milling in NH you have to be on the money with the BF
just the way it is here.
Maybe it's the smile I get when I see a guy say he cut 10,000 bf of 1½x3½ and call it 2x4.
Numbers are not fact, Just a guess.

I don't care how you charge for the work you do, We all have a place I guess.
But, If I give you BF numbers on what I cut, they are a fact no air.
Best of luck to all who cut with there math. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

OlJarhead

Doing the math on the last job, switching to exact dimension (as close as I can since some things, as mentioned earlier, were done full and some dimensional and I wrote down nominal throughout) and then multiplying by $350/Mbf which I believe is the going rate for softwoods in the area and I would have made 50% more on the job.

I did this because I wanted to see what I'd be looking at if the lumber yard wants to go by the board foot rather than the hour.  As long as I can mill 250bf/hr I'm making about the same as my hourly rate so I think I'd agree to that ($350/Mbf).
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

OlJarhead

So the lumber yard owner wants $250/Mbf for milling (which could be an increase for me depending on what I'm cutting etc etc) but also told my customer it was the best lumber he'd seen.

My customer is thinking he may just offer the guy the end product stacked and stickered and pay me to mill it at my going rate ($85/hr) on a Net7 terms (so he has time to deliver and receive payment).  His argument is that the lumber yard owner wanted to send two guys with a truck and forklift to offbear and load which will cost him an additional amount and then pay $280/Mbf for the logs (all older logs in the 18-24" SED and 17.5' long).....

So, either I mill for the lumber yard owner directly or I keep my regular rate and mill for the customer on Net7 terms (which I think will be fine since this customer has been very good so far -- two visits).

I think the lumber yard owner is trying to work a deal since his old mill shut down.  I guess he has a guy with a manual mill that offered to do it at $250/Mbf but I'm told the guy normally charges twice that and works alone....can't imagine how he'd cut over 25-35Mbf alone in a short time though.  Heck with my mill it will take me several days if I keep up the pace...but he wants a lot of 1x's which we all know takes longer.

My advice to the customer was "if you want to do it yourself, do it under contract and be specific about what he's paying for and how it is measured.  I for one wouldn't sell a full cut 2x6 as a 1.5x5.5 unless the price was the same either way ;) "

Anyway, I think this is likely to happen but we shall see.
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

4x4American

Sawing directly for the lumber yard owner could lead to steady work, no?  Once you start dealing with the bigger boys you're gonna find everything is by the BF and your hourly rate will probably thrown out the window.  $250/mbf sounds good.  Now you need to get an edger! 
Boy, back in my day..

OlJarhead

The more I've thought about it the more I think it would be a good way to see how I do ;)  He was impressed with the product and as long as I have decent logs I can produce ;)

I've stayed away from the BF pricing due to so many variables, one of which, I suppose, is that I found my niche ;)  Not many out here willing to do what I do and go where I go!
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

WV Sawmiller

Erik,

  $250/mbf may be fine for 2" framing lumber but how about when you are cutting 4/4?Almost twice the number of cuts to get the same volume? You may want to think about different bf prices based on thickness.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

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