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Swing blade Mills - Versatility and production

Started by Timo, October 25, 2004, 03:28:14 PM

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Timo

 :P
I am about to enter into the wild world of portable sawmilling for fun and profit and have a few questions for those of you further down the track then me. I have been researching designs, and have narrowed the selection down to swing blade mills: the Peterson and Lucas.  
Questions:
With the standard Peterson (the WPF) you have the option of one high track, to allow placement of the log by rolling it onto the skids which is handy if you don't have log lifting equipment on site. With one track on the ground, this means that your log support has to be maintained parallel with the track. The Lucas mill with both high rails allows fairly easy adjustment of the track to allow for taper in the log. Is this less of an issue then it seems? I don't want to have to be messing with a large log trying to get it parrallel and level with my tracks.

Peterson also sells a more portable frame (which looks like the Lucas system), the 'All Terrain'' but sell it as an entry level (low production) model. Has anyone tried one of these? Comments?

Are there any disadvantages with the 26" 10 inch cut blade on the larger Peterson aside from cost?

The Peterson advertises a double cut feature without rotating the whole head carriage - this coupled with the 10 inch cut seems a significant advantage. Any comments on this feature and it's real world usefullness?

Most of what I will be milling is 12 to 30 inch Douglas fir and Cedar in 8 to 20 foot sections (mostly framing/ decking/ siding - clears pulled out for finished lumber and dried), but there is a percentage of business around here involving large (4-5 foot width) old growth logs where one will have to set up around the log. Up front, I am impressed by the Peterson, but want to be aware if I am sacrificing any protability or ability to set up on rough(er) terrain over the Lucas design. While I may be able to set up on my own site for some of the milling, much of it will be at the customer's location, so  the ability to set up quickly and accurately on varied sites is a must.

Any thoughts much appreciated!
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

woodbeard

Hey, Timo, welcome to the forum!

I can only speak of the Peterson 8" WPF, since that is the only mill I have run. I have the hi track option, but I don't use it. I set it up once and it seemed too wobbly. I know that it's probably supposed to be that way, and works just fine, but I just can't get around it in my head. Plus, you still have to move the middle support post out of the way. What I do, is stage the logs so they are uphill from the mill so that a short ramp ( random boards and blocks ) ends up level, making rolling the logs into the mill easy. If a log is too big to move around, the tracks can be moved. The tracks do need to be kept fairly level, but you can deal with the taper by setting up the log bunks in a way that lets the log lay the way you want. With big fir and cedar, you shouldn't find this too much trouble.
I think you will find too that the WPF can be set up almost anywhere. Once you get familiar with it, it is very transportable and versatile. Also I believe the capability of making double cuts without turning the mill is a definite advantage! The double cut procedure is a bit of a hassle to begin with. I can't imagine also having to turn the whole carriage around every time I wanted a board wider than 8"
Hope this helps,
George

oakiemac

Timo,

Welcome. I don't own a swing blade so I'll leave comments on your questions to others who know more. But I will say that you have taken the right first step by joining the forum. There is a lot of knowledge here to answer your questions.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

Ga_Boy

Welcom Timo,

I will be watching this thread closely as I am a similar positionas you.  I have been posting here for about 9 months now, while I have drafted my business plan.  I am in the final stage of my market research and things are looking very positive.

I too am considering a swing blade saw for my operation.  I have been contracting out my sawing and kiln services.  My business has been reasonable given that I currnetly have only one species for sale; Oak.


Mark
AMS Kiln Dried Lumber

10 Acers in the Blue Ridge Mountains

Timo

 ;)
Thanks for the warm welcome! Just trying to get as much info as possible before plunking down any money. Most of the custom milling done around here is with band saws, and while there may still be room in that niche, I'd rather be doing something different from the start. Lots of salvage opportunity as well what with all these nice riparian management zones that have been mandated in over the last 10 years. Wind doesn't seem to care if frogs live near by.......
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Captain

Yes Timo, you have come to the right place.  Congratulations on your research so far, hopefully we can help you with the rest of your questions.  There are a fair number of swingers lingering here on the forum.  Just for the record, I do work with Peterson Sawmills here in the US in mostly an aftersales and training mode, and I get around to the shows.  I hope that we can also get some Lucas owners to check in with their experiences as well.  

The "standard" Peterson WPF is a "Lo-Lo" track configuration.  "Hi-Lo" track is an option at the time of purchase.  The obvious reason for the high track is repetitive log loading, this is accomplished on the new models with a slide up middle support leg.  The less obvious reason for the high track is to keep the track out of the sawdust, the low track on the offside (to the left of the operator) is right in the line of fire for the discharged sawdust when the blade is in the horizontal position.  When operating "Lo-Lo" you are needing to move accumulated sawdust more often.  Another comment, the high track supports have been improved since the build of Woodbeard's mill (I gotta send you some pictures, George).  The track is very stable, almost as stable as operating in Lo-Lo.  Your other question with the track system on the Peterson was in regards to compensating for log taper.  Well, if you want to be able to compensate after the log is placed, advantage to Lucas with the ability to move the track ends individually.  I find that most logs that I encounter do not need any more than 2" of taper compensation over the length.  With the Peterson WPF this is easily done by adding material under the skids before placing the log, or after if you have a jack.  Most times I do not bother, I put the low quality face up, and take out the taper on the bad face.  Most of my logs have at least one.

Peterson ATS....exactly the same center unit and horizontal sizing as the WPF with all of the same blade sizes and engine sizes available.  The difference being moving tracks like the Lucas, but less walking because the vertical adjustments are both on the same side.  Taper compensation like the Lucas is still possible with a hand crank located on the oppesite side.  Sweet mill, light and easily portable into the woods, or over just about any rough surface.  More portability, only because of the weight of the saw unit without all of the extra frame of the WPF.  The WPF can setup on equally rough terrain, although it requires more length than the ATS (6 feet longer standard tracks).  Bottom line, all the same cuts can be made as the WPF, even comes with the same length track standard (20 foot capable) The major difference is the amount of walking required to lower the tracks.  Another thought, the WPF has an optional electric winch so the unit may be lowered without leaving the operator's position.

20" blade disadvantages?? The only one I can think of is the extra weight being pushed around for every cut due to the larger frame size requirement.  It is a manual mill, and there is a fatigue factor.  

Double cuts are a place where the Peterson (any model) really shines.  It is really quick and easy to double cut once the lower balde guard is removed.  (2 nuts required....doing a lot of double cuts?? Use wing nuts)  Although I do not double cut at EVERY job, it is important to be able to handle the larger cuts to satisfy more customers....many go crazy over the wide stuff.  In the real world, I prefer cutting my hardwoods at a maximum of 8" to reduce cupping and splitting anyways, I find the really wide stuff harder to dry and control defect.  I often end up making a 16" wide hardwood board into something smaller to eliminate defects.

I hope this information helps, and keep the questions coming.  There are plenty of other Peterson and Lucas owners here, so I am sure there is more information on the way.

Captain


Tom

I can't help you with your sawmill study, but, Welcome to the forum Timo.  I have a boy named Timo too. ;D

Ianab

Hi Timo

I would pretty much agree with what Woodbeard has written.

The Peterson ATS is very similar to the Lucas mill in design. I believe the Peterson is better constructed and has a couple of nice features that put it ahead of the Lucas. There is nothing seriously wrong with the Lucas mills, I just think the Petersons are better.
The double cut is usefull IF you have a need for really wide boards / beams. I'd still guess that 99% of timber gets sawn down under 10" in the end.
 
My experience is that the WPF isn't quite as portable as the Lucas or ATS mills, but I can still haul mine to logs on a quad bike trailer ( OK it takes 2 loads ::)  ) The Hi-Lo rail setup seems to work best when you can stage up a big stack of small / medium logs and roll them in under the rail. I use the Lo-Lo setup like Woodbeard as I'm usually moving the mill to the logs. There is a limit to what size log you can skid with a quad bike.
Lining up the taper in the log can be done by sitting the bunks on various boards to adjust their height. You can get a feeling for it by looking at the logs. Alternatively a high lift jack can be used to lift one end of a log and another board can be slipped in under one bunk.
I've set up my WPF is some interesting places, on dirt tracks, the side of hills etc. A selection of blocks and wood rings will support the rails easy enough. The rails MUST be parrallel to each other, reasonable level so you aren't cutting up and down hill too much, but if one rail is 4 inches lower than the other it's not a problem.


Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Timo

OK, so the ATS Peterson is very similar to the Lucas. Why such a difference in production numbers? Peterson's site rates this mill as a 900-1800 BF per day, where as the Lucas folks make a big point of 3000 BF+ per day. Now, I recognize that there is a lot of varience in these numbers but would expect both companies to be erring on the high side, hence end up with equal numbers.

I also don't see what makes the WPF twice as fast given that it has the same running gear - it can't all be in walking down to the other end frame to lower the tracks. I know that log loading/ board unloading has a lot to do with production, so am concerned about the impact of the mill setup on my options.
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Timo

 :D Great info, much thanks!
I anticipate that a lot of the milling I will be doing will be setting up the mill next to a deck of  12-20 foot 20 inch average Doug Fir and Cw as that is what we get off our private land around here (seeing as most of the big stuff was logged out 60 years ago). Henceforth, I had firgured that the hi track option would alow me to roll logs under the frame fairly easily. I guess you could also roll over the frame rail if you have very good support, but this strikes me as rather risky!

Also, as you say, if it is one log and you can't move it with availible equipment, then your only option is to set the mill up around it and go.  This seem so favor the ATS, as setup and portability will factor larger then winching time differences in a one-tree-at-a-time situation. Lots to condiser. Anyone out there run an ATS Peterson? Are they that much slower? If so, why?
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Captain

The ATS Petersons are not that much slower,  especially for 2 people.  They are a factor slower for one person because of all of the leg work required for the adjustments.  

I hesitate to provide any production numbers for any sawmill, but here are a few for my 8" 24hp WPF.
My best time?  1040BF in 40 minutes of cutting.  This was just 1 log, and the customer wanted 8x2.5s.  
My best day with 1 helper?  3800BF in 7 hours, no equipment involved for log loading, stacking, or taking away waste.  
My average day on a customer's site with customer provided labor (1 person) about 1300-1500 BF in 6-8 hours including setup, teardown and lunch.  I did a job one evening last week with a particularly ambitious customer.  840 BF in 3.5 hours from the time I pulled in to the time I left.  Average 14" pine, 8ft long cutting mostly 2x6s.

There are too many variables to consider, size of logs, are they staged, dirty, low quality, need trimming......The constant that everyone will tell you here (no matter the mill they run) is that the sawmill is rarely what slows you down, materials handling will.  Keep the materials moving and the blade in the log, and the numbers go up.  Don't get hung up on the production numbers manufacturer's claim...they are not in touch with reality. :)

Captain

Captain

Just another thought on the diffuculty of setup for that 1 big log....ATS vs WPF...

Parts breakdown...

ATS
2 Track Sections (4 if over a 14' log)
2 Cross skids
4 end stands
2 winch tubes (length of the track)
blocking for track adjustment
1 saw carriage

WPF (being run Lo-Lo)
4 track sections
2 cross skids
blocking for track adjustment
1 saw carriage

Yes the saw carriage is heavier on the WPF, but still easily moved by 2 people over rough terrain or through the mud.  There is actually less to carry with the WPF, and Lo-Lo it sets up as fast as the ATS on equal terrain..  Just food for thought.

Captain

HORSELOGGER

Hey there Timo. I have owned and operated both The Lucas and The Peterson mills In my opinion , the setting of taper thing on the Lucas is a little overated. Remember , you are the feed mechanism on these mills. When you set the rails on an angle, you will be increasing the amount of effort needed to push or pull the mill on an incline. I've done it and it sucks. I would much prefer shimming the log, and keeping the mill level. I never liked the hi-lo set up, and never used it much. I loaded logs over the right side low rail. Its nice to be able to get out and around the mill and log with the lo-lo set up.My opinion is that overall, the Peterson mill is a better cutting , stouter, more operator friendly machine, but I did cut good lumber on the Lucas mill too.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

Timo

 ??? That is great input, I was hoping to un-earth someone with experience on both mills!

I can visualize what you are saying, but still have a hard time imagining myself there with a peave (cant hook) and a 16 foot, 24 inch wet fir log, trying to get it onto the bunks without hitting anything, or going to far and crushing the other rail. Maybe I'm a lout, but I try to never underestimate my ability to damage equipment in the heat of battle..... Still, I respect your having-done-it perspective far more then my gut fears. thanks
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Fla._Deadheader

  Timo, lay a 2X or something close on both sides of the rail and the log should not hit the rail.

  Welcome to the Forum. I have nearly all the parts gathered up to build a Swinger, but, hurricanes and such have slowed down the project.  We also built an oversized Band mill. Still think we have a need for both.  ;D ;D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Teddles

Timo, Welcome to the Forum! I'm sure you will soon be overwhelmed with the amount of information you can find in this place. I still get lost!!   ;D

Jake has been having a read of this thread with keen interest and is itching to get tapping away but he's out in the factory playing with the mills and can't get on just yet. So I've been asked to pass on some info . . .  

To answer your board ft question, as to why we are so much below Lucas's estimates, it's cause we have given a realistic number, and not just the best that you could possibly do. Ours is an average number per day, taking into account the weather, the quality of logs, helpers, etc etc. It might be a bit hard to maintain 3000+ ft per day when there are so many other variables involved, and that is what our estimate takes into account.

If you are wanting something comparible though, we took the ATS to the 2002 Portable Sawmill Shootout in Maine. Peterson's ATS had a 24 hp Honda on it while the Lucas had a 25hp Kohler. Peterson's ATS averaged 461 bf/hr and Lucas' averaged 333 bf/hr. Lumber Recovery for Petersons was 79% while Lucas's was 58%. Again lots of other factors, but there are some more figures to add to your research!!

Also, the ATS is only our entry level mill. We have bigger and faster models for the larger commercial side of things.  

As people have said, there are lots of Peterson and Lucas owners on here so keep asking those questions.

I'm sure Jake will be along later to put in his two cents worth too .. .. . . .      ;D

Timo

Ok, point taken regarding the posted production numbers on mills: I suspected it had more to do with perspective then hard data. So Peterson is selling the ATS as an entry level mill, rather then just a more portable alternative. I haven't seen the pricing on these yet (Local dealer just has prices posted for WPF mills) so I don't know the savings of the (simpler?) system. I don't think that the price difference will be a major factor for me unless it it huge, I am more concerned with matching the mill to my needs and intended market. As far as I can tell it falls out like this:
Lucas/ ATS high rail:
simple system
easy setup
less weight in the carriage
easy adjustment without moving log
less sawdust build-up issues
more labourious process (lots of walking)

WPF:
less labour (less walking for adjustment) in basic operation
log/ lumber more accessible (no upright frames in the way)
easy length increase (not limited by span of supports)
less side wobble of frames/ more robust setup
more setup required for parallel milling (logs must be level with rails - might mean moving logs)

I still don't understand why Lucas does not have a provision for double cutting (other then reversing the carriage) or a larger then 8 inch cut. I guess my decision is complicated by the fact that I am trying to achieve two opposing things - high production in stable operating conditions (lots of logs or bring logs to mill) and portable operation for one-log-at-a-time salvage milling. The one Peterson I have had the opportunity to view was set up in a warehouse, and had a large forklift to lift logs in over the rails - made sense, accept I don't see having support equipment all the time, and need to be sure I can make a workable situation out of a less then perfectly level site. I know from being around band mills that anything that supports a log and has to maintain level/ square (band saw trailer frames) can be a pain to setup and maintain.l
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Ianab

You seem to be getting a handle on it :)

QuoteI know from being around band mills that anything that supports a log and has to maintain level/ square (band saw trailer frames) can be a pain to setup and maintain.

Remember the log doesn't sit on the mill at all. The rails only support the mill frame and there is very little pressure on these while sawing. The line-up of the rails on uneven ground will take a couple of minutes and a selection of blocks.
 The log sits either on the ground, if it's to big to move, or on a couple of simple wooden 'bunks' . You can adjust the bunks by slippping some boards or blocks under them, move them to suit log length, cut some different ones...You just need something to wedge the log in a steady position.  I usually look at the log and the mill and decide which one is going to be more work to move. A 12" log I can drag alongside the mill and roll it up onto the bunks easy. A 36" log.. well Muhammed can go to the mountain  :D
You are right about getting best production in a nice yard, with a forklift, good logs and a couple of helpers. The mills work great there. But they are truely portable, can be dragged off into the forest and set up / operated by one person. You just aren't going to saw 3000 bft a day by yourself with no log handling machinery.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

TN_man

Timo,
Welcome to the forum! :)
I am in the same boat as you except I have already made my decision and am in the process of saving the money up for it (I don't like debt hanging over my head so I make myself be patient). One thing that you may consider is that you could start off with the ATS and then buy an upgrade to the WPF later. This would allow you to convert to the WPF and then back to the ATS if the situation warrented. I have not seen all that is involved to know how easy or hard this is but just know that it is doable.
I have a WM lt20 now and I plan on hanging on to it to cut the wide boards. This is a manuel mill yet it is set up on a trailer and these can be found real cheap used. But I am like you in that I am trying to find a niche that not everybody else is already doing.   ;)
God bless, Jeff
WM LT-20 solar-kiln Case 885 4x4 w/ front end loader  80 acre farm  little time or money

woodbeard

Timo, you mentioned a local dealer, I assume you mean Lou Brown? I think I remember something about changes he makes to the mills to optimise them for the wood in that area. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Captain, Oh great, another improvement since my mill was built ::) :D I got to see the new ones at the Fairview demo. Very nice. Saw yer rig there too, and was hoping you'd be there with it. Oh well, maybe another time.
I finally got it thru my thick head to try the simple wood bunks with square notches, and they work great! Having different size notches to compensate for taper is good too. I still use the fancy ones I built for smaller stuff, especially cedar (eastern) which is light and likes to move.

BW_Williams

Welcome Timo,  I really like my Lucas 618, I've had it for 2 years and have put 160 hrs on it.  I'm by no means a production sawyer, more of a hobby. With a helper, I'm happy getting 100 to 200bf/hr cutting 1x, a little more on 2x stuff, can keep that pace all day.  I've lost jobs to bandmills, cause alot of folks want wide boards.  I hear Peterson has a new thinner blade,  have you seen it in operation?  How far up is Duncan, I'm only 3-4 hours South of the border, if'n ya wander far.  Good luck, BWW
Support your local Volunteer Fire Dept.  (not by accident)
Support your local Ski Patrol (by snowboarding:)
Mayor of Millerdale, Washington, USA (by God)!

Timo

Funny you should mention that. I was just talking with the folks at Peterson today. I guess Lou is no longer representing them (at least directly). My efforts to contact him have come up empty handed, although the phone still has a message saying "Peterson mills" which is a bit misleading....To bad, it would be nice to have a dealer on the west cost of Canada! Given the utility, I think these mills are under-represented here.
Fortunately Rex from Peterson was able to answer the questions I had regarding the different models and such which has filled in the gaps in my knowledge and added to the good wisdom from this site. I was interested to hear that the 10" cut operates a bit slower then the 8" mill, is substantially heavier, and has a wider kerf. It all makes sense of course, but the details are important. With the ability to double cut, I may be able to get away with the 8 inch blade. It is just a question of how much 8"+ material I will be cutting.

At any rate, I do see a big pile of sawdust in my future, which is good  8)
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

Timo

BW_Williams,
Duncan is just over the boarder, but on Vancouver island or "the Island" as we locals call it (but don't they all :D). I do get down your way now and then as I have a bit of an addiction to bending my old BMW motorbike down Oregon's coastal backroads, and the company I work for does some business in Washington. Glad to get your input on the Lucas, which I have coveted for many a year. A decent unit indeed.  What is your take on the need to cut larger dimensions?
Peterson WPF27 with bipedal, dual grapple, 5'6" loader/ offloader

NZJake

Gidday everyone,

I'd just like to add a few things, in regard to the 10" machine.
The Kerf increase from the 8" model is around 1mm and it does cut just a little slower, also a little heavier to push. What it does offer is some incredible flexabillity over other saws. The 10" machine is the only circular that I know of that can cut 10"x20" beam straight from a log (not that you'ld be wanting to handle them). In my opinion this machine is one of the key points that set the Peterson aside from all the rest, no one else makes a 10" model.  

The new 'microkerf' blade makes real since on this machine as it takes a blade that has a kerf of around 6mm and almost halves it. So on days that your needing production/recovery slap the thin blade on and go for it. The days your needing more flexabillity put your standard blade on. All in all you've got way more option with a 10". My 8" keeps me happy, though there has been days where customers have asked me to cut 10" stock, lucky for me I can ask dad if I can borrow a 10" mill for the weekend :).

The 10" model for the first time was entered in the most recent shootout, it did well considering it's heavier kerf and bigger blade, infact I'm pretty sure it came in second for production (10" 24hp), just under the Lucas (8" 27hp). Just a few board feet seperated them. Theory would put the less hp/bigger blade way under but to our suprise it didn't (wasn't there but I heard the Lucas operator was a big fellow AND a kiwi at that). I think woodmizer still holds the results on their sight some where.

All out of breath now... I mean fingers ::).

Cheers, Jake.
Wife says I woke up one morning half asleep uttering thin kerf and high production, I think I need a hobby other than milling?

Fla._Deadheader

  Howdy, Jake. Haven't seen you on here much, lately.  Yer probably workin waaaay too hard. Missed seein that AMS your guys had in Moultrie. Good to hear from you.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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