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Advanced Falling Cuts

Started by RHP Logging, March 26, 2016, 12:43:41 AM

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RHP Logging

Just wanted to start a thread talking about different cuts used to swing trees, different face cuts, snipes, etc.  Basically different techniques about saving out wood.  Everyone is welcome to post their stuff and I hope you will!  I'd like to get some new ideas shakin!

Since the question of snipes were brought up I thought I'd start there.  Made a few videos the other day.


This first one I'm laying the tree downhill and I wanted to save out as much as possible.  I put the snipe on the stump to get the butt on the ground asap.  Didn't even bust up the pulpwood  in the top!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzjah3K4_tE&feature=youtu.be   


This next one I'm laying uphill.  The snipe is on the butt log.  I wanted it to stretch out as much as possible by keeping it on the stump instead of hopping off. Yes I have a dutchman in there to bring it around. The tree was leaned out towards the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOBIdYVAcs&feature=youtu.be 


This is another downhill lay.  Snipe on the stump again to get the butt down asap.  The pull came from the stump if any were wondering.  Slow it down.  You'll see it.   I took a pic of the butt log to prove it if ya want to call me a bullshitter!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PoFnGOrIX8&feature=youtu.be 



A conventional face with a snipe on the stump. Laid this one out somewhat sidehill.  Snipe kept the stem moving instead of stalling when the face closed.  It was easier to throw a conventional face in this tree from the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SdLGRtYa8&feature=youtu.be 


Sorry I'm too tired to figure out how to post the youtube window right in the post.  Just had to use the links for now.  Will have to figure that out. 





Buckin in the woods

timberlinetree

Nice video's! I'm starting to learn a lot of new stuff and can't wait to try. Thanks for posting. Once I had one giving me trouble and somehow I got it to go  almost 180 with a series of small wedge cuts. Not sure how I did it? :o work safe!
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

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RHP Logging

Thank you sir!  I forgot to mention this is a clearcut although I'm sure its not that hard to figure out.  In a select cut my backcuts might be a little different so I could have more time to retreat.  Throwing the trees out into the cut lets me hang around the stump more. Theres no threat of branches being tossed back at me.
Buckin in the woods

John Mc

I'm not sure what the advantage of getting the stump on the ground ASAP is, can you explain in what kinds of situations that is an advantage? 

The narrow notch seems as though it would increase the chances of fiber pull, since it closes early and pulls the hinge apart, rather than breaking the hinge from bending. In most of my cutting - at least if it's for saw logs, I use an open face notch. This keeps the butt attached to the stump as long as possible to maintain steering all the way down, and since it doesn't put much pull on the hinge, less chance of fiber pull. Fiber pull isn't a concern when I'm cutting firewood, but I tend to follow the same procedure anyway.

I don't do much clearcutting, so there is no clearing to "throw the tree out" into. I guess I can see situations where getting the butt away from the stump could help if I need to get past the stump when pulling the log out.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

RHP Logging

Getting the butt on the ground first allows the tree to lay out and have the top hit as softly as possibly in order to save out the logs.  The narrow face breaks the hinge quickly and gets the stem free of the stump.  With a conventional face sometimes the top will hit first and bust up the last log especially if there are multiple crotches involved and when laying a tree downhill.  Its easier to bust a tree up when sending it downhill because it is falling farther and gains momentum.  Getting the butt on the ground slows that process and allows the tree to "stretch" out.  There are definetely instances where you want the tree to stay attached to the stump as long as possible. Also the snipe usually forces the fiber pull if any from the stump. I don't clearcut much either.  Maybe one or two jobs a year.  Thats not really the point of it though.  My face cuts would be the same in a select, but my backcut might be different so im not chasing the hinge all the way till the end.
Buckin in the woods

John Mc

Interesting. Thanks. Not something I see folks doing around here. THe vriation from region to region is interesting.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

OH logger

this is interesting. I learned the game of logging way which there is a lot less variation and more about the "formula". that's what I love about this job. it never gets old because EVERY tree is different. I cut in flat ground all the time so that takes some of the variation away but obviously not all. sure looks like youre a good cutter. would love to carry your gas can someday and watch all day!!
john

John Mc

OH Logger - I grew up north of Fostoria, OH on the edge of what was once the Black Swamp (and is now some excellent farmland) - so I know what you are talking about when you say "flat".

I also went through all 4 of the GOL training classes, as well as their "storm damage clean-up" class. Very interesting. One of the things I valued most about it was that the instructor took the time to make sure people understood the "why" of what they were doing as well as the "how". It really helps having that understanding when you run into something different and need to adapt the techniques.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

chester_tree _farmah

It's an art for sure. GOL is a good place to start and a good place to learn safety and learn safely. Some of us just survived out there long enough to learn some skills. When I think back on how I used to thrash around in the woods I shake my head....
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CCC4


barbender

You guys have probably fell more timber in one good day than I have in my whole life- but I do have an observation ;) Red pine I have felled, if you don't make the hinge so it breaks, it tends to split the butt.  That is to say, you don't want the tree attached to the stump when it hits the ground.
Too many irons in the fire

cbutler703

I Know in the US your timber is a lot bigger than ours here in the uk, but what cut do you guys use for a forward leaner, her we put our wedge cut in, then bore through the middle leaving a hinge then cut diagonally down the back. this is to stop any splitting from occurring!

chester_tree _farmah

Sounds like a bore cut variation. Allows you to make your hinge the way you want before you release the tree.
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John Mc

Quote from: cbutler703 on March 26, 2016, 02:02:01 PM
I Know in the US your timber is a lot bigger than ours here in the uk, but what cut do you guys use for a forward leaner, her we put our wedge cut in, then bore through the middle leaving a hinge then cut diagonally down the back. this is to stop any splitting from occurring!

That sounds a lot like what I do, except I don't cut "diagonally down the back". Once I've made the bore cut, I'll either just cut straight out toward the back till it releases, or cut most of the way, leaving a holding strap, pull the saw out and make sure the area is clear, then nip the holding strap from the rear.

So what does the diagonal cut do?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

wesdor

RHP - great videos and excellent explanation on your part.  You are a true professional.  Thanks for starting this thread, I am learning a lot.

killamplanes

cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

RHP Logging

Thanks boys!  I will dig up some more pics this week.  Maybe make another video or two.  I've got a good one for head leaners somewhere.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: killamplanes on March 26, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.

So you bore cut everything?  You ever think about why?  I cut all hardwood too.  Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production.  I did several years ago.  Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing.  You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump.  Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood.  Not knockin what you do.  I mean think about other options in the best possible way.  It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to.  Whether in the face or the back cut.  Food for thought like I said.  Not raggin on your style.
Buckin in the woods

killamplanes

honestly I chase white oak, walnut, makes up over 60% of my work, I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft which adds up very quickly times 20-30 trees a day and yes it a pain shavin butts flares down all day another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps. But that's me we all do things differently I just finished a contract I paid 360$ a tree for white oaks I need everything I can get but if I was cutting low grade tie logs etc. it probly wouldn't be worth the headache cutting low, and slow. That's my 2cents and its not worth that.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

square1

Great thread!
I'd like to put in a request for tips on felling walnut.  Had an old timer tell me there's certain things that you need to do to every black walnut felled.  He said the steps aren't necessary on every tree, but you take them regardless every time to insure you don't waste a tree.  He did elaborate that you should remove any / all sap wood from the hinge but that's the only tip he gave away.

If it matters, I'll be taking 20-24" trees up to approximately 100' tall out of a wood lot with very few if any lower branches. Thanks in advance.

RHP Logging

Quote from: killamplanes on March 27, 2016, 12:10:00 AM
honestly I chase white oak, walnut, makes up over 60% of my work, I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft which adds up very quickly times 20-30 trees a day and yes it a pain shavin butts flares down all day another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps. But that's me we all do things differently I just finished a contract I paid 360$ a tree for white oaks I need everything I can get but if I was cutting low grade tie logs etc. it probly wouldn't be worth the headache cutting low, and slow. That's my 2cents and its not worth that.

Makes sense to me.  You do whatever you have to do i guess.  I cut about 6 walnut a year.   We just don't have em this far north.  Generally we leave the white oak stand for its longevity unless i'm cutting down near Illinois where they grow like weeds.  Then I'll cut entire jobs of them. You know where your bottom line is at.  The wood I'm in right now is below average in quality for sure.  Its break up work though. Take what i can get this time of year.
Buckin in the woods

cbutler703

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 26, 2016, 11:11:30 PM
Quote from: killamplanes on March 26, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.

So you bore cut everything?  You ever think about why?  I cut all hardwood too.  Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production.  I did several years ago.  Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing.  You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump.  Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood.  Not knockin what you do.  I mean think about other options in the best possible way.  It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to.  Whether in the face or the back cut.  Food for thought like I said.  Not raggin on your style.

at college we were taught to cut as low as you can! over her in the uk you will fail your assessment if your cuts are higher than the toe on your boot!

RHP Logging

When i first started it was bore cut everything and flush cut stumps.  Lots of dull chains and bitchin tho!  I get the not wasting wood thing, but man that gets old. 

I cut very few walnut but have seen lots of stumps of those who have.  They will crown cut them often, meaning bore out all the heart wood from the side while leaving the root flares to hold up the tree.  Then they start cutting the flares off tight to the stem.  Basically they bump the flairs off when the tree is still standing. To me its a form of stump jumping because there is no hinge or control. I'm sure they would release the tree in the way they think it would go. The leftover flares look like a crown left on the stump. Walnut is very splitty and the tighter you can cut up t h e hinge the better.  You can have directional control and still cut the hinge off when the tree is commited. Some kind of hinge or holding wood for directional purposes should be maintained on every tree at least until it commits.  Stump jumping is a good way to get hurt.
Buckin in the woods

SW Oh Logger

I guess I'm more like Killamplane on this,but I do know what you're saying about cutting flush and being slower, and hard on chain, Bob. However, not to sound sappy,but trees are like people sometimes--many different types, circumstances, and other factors that influence each different example. That said, I don't always cut low--big, old red oak, hard maple or even hickory I come up to 8 to 10" depending on the tree. However, I cut a LOT of valuable walnut and white oak veneer, and many white oak and burr oak quarter saw-type big butt log trees that also bring in the 1.00 to 1.50/bd.ft range, and I get all I can out of the stump, even though it can be pain. if I can help anyone learn more about cutting veneer walnut I'd be happy to help any way I can. Great topic by guys who know what they're talking about; sure is interesting to learn more even when you're not in the woods!
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John Mc

Quote from: killamplanes on March 27, 2016, 12:10:00 AM
I cut low for several reasons, number one is ounce u take that tree to the landing u cant add 6 inches to it to make a veener 10ft instead of 9ft... another big reason is for your skidder getting around u don't hit those 1-2ft stumps.

Quote from: cbutler703 on March 27, 2016, 08:13:23 AM
at college we were taught to cut as low as you can! over her in the uk you will fail your assessment if your cuts are higher than the toe on your boot!

The old timers around here have a saying:
    "An inch on the stump is worth a foot in the crown"

Cutting low isn't any slower if you have to go around and lower your high stumps afterwards. I would not accept high stumps on my property, nor would a lot of other landowners around here. A max stump height is not uncommon in timber contracts, and the max listed sure isn't 2 feet.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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