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oak regeneration

Started by Pclem, March 25, 2016, 07:17:15 PM

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Pclem

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to the forum. We've got some land in Wi. It doesn't look like it's ever been managed. Sandy soil, lower quality red oak. [pin or black they call it].  We do get some grade, but with the tie log prices, it doesn't seem to pay to sort .Most of the oak is 100+ yrs old. among all the big oaks, red maple is next in line. Anywhere from 3-6 inches. I have taken some of the larger oak out the last couple years, and it leaves a big open space. [The crowns are large]. The larger stumps are not sprouting much. due to not enough sun, or they're just too big. I had a forester come and look at it, and he said I have two options if I want to regenerate oak. [1], Clearcut everything. Or[2]. Over the next few years, cut all smaller maple, leave large oaks for seed, then clearcut oaks whenever regeneration occurs. I am leaning more toward clearcutting everything  and starting fresh. I hunt the land and would rather not open it up like a park, and would like to see some thick regen fast. Am I wrong in that thinking? It seems like everything I read on management involves [weeding the garden], and leaving the good trees. Obviously, the good trees are ready [or past ready] to harvest. And if I just cut the mature oak, I won't have future regen for oaks. I think clearcutting is best, but part of me is skiddish. [maybe due to the bad rap clearcutting gets]. I know this may be alot to swallow in one bite, but any advice is appreciated.
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

WDH

At least here in the South, red oak needs partial shade to regenerate.  If we clearcut, we don't get much oak back, but instead, light seeded species come back first and out compete any oak reproduction.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ahlkey

In Wisconsin Red Oak regeneration has been very difficult due to the deer population.  I  would ask the forester to point you to a few other reference sites in your county where he has seen some good regeneration first before making any decision.   

OneWithWood

I would kill all the red maple and let the mature trees regenerate.  After a number of oak seedlings are above the browse line take out some of the more mature trees.  Deer are going to be an issue.  Hunt the area hard.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Pclem

The idea is to get the regen from stump sprouts.[If I clearcut]. But after looking at the stand closer, it doesn't seem to make any sense to clearcut. I won't get a good amount of stump sprouts from the large oak, and the maples will probably be as thick due to their sprouts. One important part I left out, is there is also white pine among the maples.[In certain areas]. I'm wondering now if I should just let nature run its course, and not fight it, and cut mature oak and make room for the maple/pine. There are other parts on property where I have oaks, so It will not decimate oaks on whole property. It seems more sustainable to do this rather than killing all the maple saplings and waiting for new oaks to generate when there already is a thick healthy crop of maples/pines now. Doesn't it make more sense to do it this way?
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

Pclem

When I say maple saplings, I guess I mean saplings/ poles, as the diameters are from 3-6 inches
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

Clark

The larger the oak the less vigorous the stump sprouting. I would not suggest clearcutting if you want oak back. From your description it sounds like you are in that area from Black River Falls towards the Dells...am I close?

With sandy soils you are going to grow poor red maple, poor oak and pine. Fire would have been abundant historically and would have been the main force in shaping the forest. If you really want oak back I would suggest taking all the red maple out first. They seed in very quickly and generally are a low-value tree. Historically fire would have kept red maple out of the upland areas. If you can form some small openings...say .5 to 3 acres in size...while taking the red maple out and then burn the openings you'd be on a path towards a more "natural" (I don't like this term but it suffices) stand. The fire will set the maple back and prepare the seedbed for oak or white pine.

If you have mature oak surrounding the opening then they will seed in a bit (possibly the entire opening if you've got enough blue jays). The white pine would be the backup as it will likely seed in quite well if there are any mature pine nearby. You may have to do some release in later years to promote the oak.

Good luck and let us know what you do, it will be an ongoing adventure.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Pclem

clark, I am in the Eau Claire area. An hour or so north of Black River Falls. Wow, lots more work involved to regenerate. I'm not sure at this point. One big advantage with the maple, [at least in my lifetime], is that I sell kiln dried packaged firewood locally. The soft maple works really well for packaged wood. So we obviously make a better profit than most with soft maple. I do like the idea of a few small openings. That would be easier to manage at first.
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

Dobie

It sounds like your primary goal is deer habitat.   Keep in mind, it will usually take around 25 years before you get acorns from oaks unless you are willing to plant Sawtooth or Swamp White Oak.    You'd probably be better off making a series of small 2-3 acre clearcuts and spacing them out to make travel corridors between them.   You could also do a larger clearcut and make that area a deer sanctuary. 


Something you might want to keep in mind that you probably already know is deer love cover.  A clear cut will provide excellent cover as well as substantial food for 7-10 years from tree and shrub regeneration.   A typical northern woodlot will provide around 250 lbs/acre of food from hard mast.  A clearcut will provide around 2500lbs/acre of food from fresh shoots/leaves, etc,. until the trees grow out of the deer browse line(7-10 years) an you get the added benefit of cover. 



If it were me, I would concentrate on areas of your woods that have more maple to cut as maple regeneration is highly preferred deer browse.   I would be hard pressed to cut down any acorn producing oaks as acorns can make up to 75% of a deer's diet.  Hinge cutting maples will ensure a high level of regeneration.   What I would do is start slowly with smaller areas(1-3 acres), work on it and see how deer react.  What I would never do is get carried away and do a large scale cutting project.  Once you cut those large oak trees, it will be 80-100 years to regrow them to mature size. 


If you do have an area of oaks you want to thin out a little, concentrate on taking out the oaks that have acorns with higher tannin levels.  All white oaks will have lower tannin levels and will be more preferred by deer.   Acorns in the red oak family have higher tannin levels but still provide a valuable food source.   Acorns from black and Chestnut oak will have higher tannin levels and would be the trees I would be taking out first. 

Pclem

Dobie, deer habitat is very important, but I would like a sustainable crop of timber to manage also. I did clearcut a more mature maple stand this winter. [about 2 ac]. and am exited to see what it will do for the deer. I have counted 120 rings on a few of the oaks I have cut. Is it wise management [sustainable] to leave these mature trees that are hovering over so much new growth? I'm not saying I would harvest all of the mature oak, but it just seems like some should be harvested to make way for a new crop
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

JBlain

I would recommend reading the crop tree release guide online by Arlyn Perkey at the USFS.  He has a good system that creates good hunting and pushes the resources of the forest onto your best trees in all size classes.  He practices that approach on his own property as well in SW PA and North of Morgantown in WV.

For the red maple, I like to hinge cut them and lay them over for ha bit at and browse.   Oaks do not stump sprout well as the diameter and age of the tree goes up.  There are a few studies that show small cut oaks sprout vigorously and large ones don't. 

Josh

WildlandFirefighter912

I know we have oak regeneration good in clearcuts here near me.

They love the sun and good soil.

And if you want a deer habitat..you may need to grow a seperate species of oak for the acorns. See which oaks grow good in your soil and climate.

Pclem

Thanks for all the input guys. This is something I will certainly take my time before I regret anything. Love the forum!
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

JBlain

Good luck.  It is great that you are putting thought into your forest management decisions.  If you google "uneven aged forest management in Wisconsin" you will find some good resources.  If you enjoy working in the woods, it can be a rewarding forest management system that maximizes both habitat and timber resources.  I have lots of mature hardwoods and also young forests on our property.  Both can do well if you get the light conditions and control competing vegetation and excessive deer browse.  Enjoy.
Josh

CJennings

The problem with opening it up too much right away is tender seedlings can simply get burned up by the sun until their root systems are better established. And intolerants like aspen or worse, raspberries, could take over before the better trees get established. A little shade is a good thing. There's a balance that needs to be struck between too much shade and too much sun.

If you're after firewood coppicing can be used on some of it. Especially red maple. You won't get good saw quality timber that way.

Dobie

Blackberry is an excellent and highly preferred deer food up here in the north.  Deer will  heavily browse on the buds and even eat the leaves once a frost comes thru and sweetens the leaves.   Bear will crush the berries.  The old professor who taught many courses to my primary forester insisted that it was far and away the most beneficial tree or shrub grown in forests.   I am sure that would be a hotly contested subject between experts in the field.


If my hunting land was in the mountains and miles from AG fields, I would pray to get blackberry regen in openings. 


Aspen is a pain in the rear to keep under control because it grows so quickly but it also is a great food source for deer who will browse heavily on fresh young shoots.  Large toothed aspen seems a little more preferred.  If you have pockets of aspen and can cut them all down every few years, it will be an excellent deer draw if you keep up on it.





For more in depth discussions on habitat for deer, I would suggest visiting the QDMA forums.   Those fellas know their deer habitat but they lack the knowledge on timber and forests found here.  Both are extremely helpful sites. 

WDH

I asked a wildlife biologist in Texas what was the best food for wildlife if you could only pick one.

He said blackberry.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

JBlain

Agreed on blackberry.   We have large areas of it and it also really helps with regeneration of oaks by providing the right amount of shade when the seedlings are young. 
Josh

WildlandFirefighter912

I know deer like our briar patches when they grow the berries.

CJennings

Deer love the berry briars but they can't get through the northern winters without hard mast like acorns and cover to provide protection from deep snows (conifers being most effective at this). And I don't know how Wisconsin is but you can't get near the berry briars here in VT without coming out covered in deer ticks. I wouldn't want acres of them.

Tarm

Hi Pclem. Hate to be a wet blanket but your oak trees are near the end of their expected lifespans. If you don't start regenerating now in 20-30 years you will have nothing but a forest of dead oak stems. 90 to 110 years is all you can expect for Northern Pin/ Black Oak and and its sounds like you are already past that. A total clearcut is kind of drastic. I would do .5 to 1 acre patch cuts in those areas with the most pin oak. Perhaps 5-10 acre shelterwoods in areas where the best quality black oak are growing.  Leave the maple/white pine for deer cover. Try to regenerate 50% of the area soon. If you have any red oaks or white oaks they can stay to generate acorns for a few more decades.
Google the Wisconsin Silvicultural Handbook go to Cover Types then to Oak then to Southern Dry Oak Forest Type. They have pages of advice to read.
Good luck.

Pclem

Thanks Tarm. I like the idea of smaller patches and shelterwoods. It seems this is the general concensus with most here. [At least to utilize mature oaks for future crop].
Glad I got all the feedback before I did any damage.
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

mesquite buckeye

Just remember if you are making openings, trees on the margin will compete for water, nutrients and light. If the opening is too small you may not get the effect you want. I'm thinking if you get down below 2 or 3 acres the effect will be greater. Try to think in terms of distance from the established trees. Anything within 100 feet of that edge will be affected.

It would be a shame to do openings that don't work. It may take 10 or 15 years before you really start to get an idea how effective your treatment was. Lots of times patches of a certain kind of tree like pin oak can indicate a spot with poor drainage or temporary ponding issues. I think soil maps would be of some help.

I can tell you from my own experience in Missouri that just because you want to have things go a certain way regarding tree species or growth doesn't mean that it will happen like that. I planted my dad's old fields to mixed hardwoods, red cedar and pines. The deer pulled all the pines up by the roots in the first two years, hedged the hardwoods and killed lots of them. We planted the fields in 1999. Only now are the trees really starting to come in and get over deer damage height. The best thing that happened was that an introduced Lespedeza came in and did 2 things. First, it is a legume and improved the eroded soil. Second the plants form waist high patches that the deer have a hard time walking through. Within a few years of the Lespedeza colonization the trees started to shoot up. The biggest ones are 30 feet tall. The Lespedeza can't take shade and will die out as soon as the canopy closes. You never know who is going to be your friend.

If I had listened to the recommendations I got to keep the weeds sprayed and the Lespedeza patches controlled the whole thing would have been a failure.

Spend time on your land and watch what is happening through the years. Look at how the plants and animals interact and look for ways that you can influence the direction things are going and try to work with what is there and try not to fight it. You will be much more successful working from that angle.

Best of luck. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ron Scott

Good advice in knowing your ecological land type and especially your soils.
~Ron

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