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three point pto or hydraulic winch

Started by Randy88, March 25, 2016, 08:13:38 AM

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Randy88

I've been given all the tops from a landowner after the loggers were done.    Its much steeper ground than I've ever worked on before for logging and cutting firewood from.     I'll be needing a winch of sorts to either put on one of my tractors or one of my skidsteers.     

The landowners only criteria is I don't tear up his ATV trails he has now but can use any of them I want.    The loggers did it in the winter and didn't use his trails, they used a cable skidder and went along the ridge tops and pulled almost everything out of the top and onto the ridge.     

I've always wanted a winch to work with in the timber, just never had a major need for one before.    I do cut and process about 50 cords of firewood a year and this alone must be 100 plus cords of wood, then on top of it, I asked if I could have any of the dead elms and he said take all I wanted but to clean up and not leave a mess on his ridge or trails.   I have no idea how many cords of dead elm there is, a couple hundred at least, maybe more.     

I can pick and choose what I want to take, I just need a way to safely drag it up out of the hollows and ravines.     I've been around and used winches before, have a 20,000 lb on my trencher we use daily that's hydraulic driven.     

His trails are narrow, the reason I was asking about a skid steer winch, it all would have to be pulled sideways to either a tractor or skid steer.     

I'd never work alone, we'd always have someone sitting in the seat if need be, but I'd want something I could lower to the ground and anchor into the trail to keep any machine from rolling backwards as I pulled.     There are plenty of nice tree's along the trails I could use as a snatch block anchor to help pull somewhat straighter to the machine, but it would all have to come up out of the ravines and the trails are not wide enough to turn sideways on.     

What brands of add on winches are there that work good?     

As for tractors, I have quite a few to choose from, the smallest one is 70 hp and the largest I'd use for this is 100hp, none have front wheel assist.     

How large of winch is needed to just pull firewood logs out of ravines, I'm not needing to pull a whole load up and out at once, but I do need about three hundred or more feet of cable. 

Any ideas or feedback would be appreciated.   

gspren

   It sounds like a small gas capstan winch might be your best bet.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

pineywoods

Go with a hydraulic winch, you won't be happy with a pto type. I use a big old truck pto type driven with an external hydraulic motor via sprockets and roller chain. Mounted on a 50 hp tractor. Big advantage--power outfeed.. Dragging tops out of ravines, I'll garontee you will get a few hung up. Power outfeed let's you slack off the cable.. Plus, those truck type winches have a dog type clutch that lets you free spool cable...Wish you were closer. I have a big (50 ton) winch that came off a dozer. I'll give it to anybody that can use it...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

John Mc

Are you looking for just the winch mechanism itself, or a dedicated logging winch?  Farmi makes some very good logging winches, as do a number of other manufacturers. Most seem to have a cable length of 160 ft (50 meters).  The Uniforest winches generally have 230 ft (70 meters).

I own a Uniforest 35E - much too small for your tractors, but they do make larger. The extra cable length is nice, but I rarely use it. I think the Farmi winches are a little better design, but both work well.  A winch sized to match your tractor would probably run more than $6000 new. on the other hand, you don't have to own a winch that matches the full 70 or 100 HP of your tractor.

Here's a new Farmi 501 winch (for up to 60 HP tractors) on eBay from Iowa Farm Equipment. for $5200. It comes with 165' of 1/2" cable, but you can fit 265' of 3/8" cable on the drum if you want. I'm sure Iowa Farm Equipment could show you larger ones, but they get even more expensive.

With these types of winches, you don't want to pull sideways (if I recall, the recommendation is to pull somewhere within 30˚ of straight behind the tractor). Usually, I'm able to maneuver to get the right angle. When I can't, I use a snatch block tied off to a tree on the far side of the trail to redirect the cable.  A self-releasing snatch block is also handy to have: it lets you pull the trees around a bend without having to go down and manually unhook a snatch block at the bend when the logs get to it.

As Gspren mentioned, a gas powered capstan winch might work. You are only limited by the length of your rope. These are a lot less expensive, work independently of your tractor, but are significantly slower than the dedicated winches, however. If this was a one-time thing, maybe you;d go that way
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Puffergas

We've used a Farmi 500 (something like that) since 1988 that is PTO and it always works good. Free spool is outstanding with it.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

711ac

Quote from: Randy88 on March 25, 2016, 08:13:38 AM
    I'll be needing a winch of sorts to either put on one of my tractors or one of my skidsteers.     

The landowners only criteria is I don't tear up his ATV trails he has now but can use any of them I want.   

The first thing you need to figure out is what machine will work best. SS's are a pita to back up for any distance, have low ground clearance and not the best on muddy slopes. Will any of your tractors make it around on these trails? I don't know your terrain, but if you can get the tractor to it, that's what I'd use. I love my big SS, but I wouldn't want to back it out a 1/4 mile trail while dragging a hitch of top's.

Randy88

Questions for some of you that actually own or use these winch's, I've never even seen one in person, so bear with me on asking stupid questions.       

I'm thinking a hydraulic driven unit, in my thinking, I can back off the cable if I'd snag what I'm pulling on anything, with a pto drive unit, I'd either have to try to snap the winch into free wheel or else back up the tractor to put slack on the cable, is this thinking correct or am I wrong?     

With a pto drive unit, how hard is it to put the winch into free wheel if the load slipped the clutch on the winch or is it no big deal?

I was told today by a salesman, with a hydraulic winch you never back it up ever, it will damage the cable if you'd ever attempt it, but when I asked him about a freewheel clutch on a hydraulic unit, farmi or Wallenstein he said they didn't have that feature??     So my next question was, then is the cable a one time only use, or how do you pull the cable out??      Then the sales pitch went towards a pto drive unit instead and he told me nobody buys the hydraulic drive units and he had none on his lot to even look at and wouldn't stock one unless I put money down on it before it was ordered?

Can anyone shed light on how the hydraulic units work, to me and my thinking, they just replaced the pto shaft with a  hydraulic motor and the rest of the unit is about identical or am I wrong again.

As for skidding with one of these units, the landowner wants the material carried as to not scuff up his roads or grassed areas, I'm just using it for pulling the stuff out of the ravines, and once cabled out, I'll be picking it up with a grapple on one of my skid steers and carrying to where I'll be loading the firewood logs onto trailers.   

My thinking was also I'd winch them out of the ravines, then use the skid steer to raise it up and put the logs sideways to the logging roads and ready to pick up and carry out right from the roads, all while attached to the log with the cable, one person in the skid steer at all times.       With a tractor pto unit, I'd have to skid them to a clearing with each hitch so I could pick them up with a skid steer, my thinking a pto unit would be a major time killer and there would no simple way to winch the material sideways to the trails while still attached to the cable due to the trails not wide enough to turn the tractor sideways.   

Is my thinking completely wrong on this whole idea as to how these units work?

thecfarm

I have never been around a hyd winch. But I've been using my PTO 3pt for more than 20 years.
When I winch in I do not have the spool dogged in. Meaning if I let go of the rope,controls,the winch line goes slack and I can pull it out and redirect the pull if I want too. I don't dog it in until I'm about 10 feet from the winch. And even if I did want to get some slack and it was dogged in,pull both ropes at the same time. The load will drop,the same way when I get to the landing.
If the load slipped the clutch,meaning it can't move it??? There again,the spool is not dogged in,I just let go of the rope and all is slack. But there again even if it was dogged in,just a little turn on the spool,enough to get that tooth off the dog and the like will go slack.
Carrying logs out of the woods I would feel that would be time comsuming and dangerous with a good size log. I am thinking "logs" being 16 feet long too.One wheel goes into a dip and that unit is going too. I have many trails that I could not even get a 10 long log sideways. I would be hitting trees with it.
And DO NOT winch sideways with a 3 pt winch. You hit something solid with the log coming in and the log stops,that tractor is coming over on it's side. I did that with a small 6 inch tree. No big deal,it will pull that easy. It did,right up until it came up against a root.Not good. I learned that lesson.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

711ac

Randy I have a hyd winch, something I built, and it was $1200 new. It's slower than a tractor pto winch, but a respectable 50 fpm @ rated flow & psi. Now I needed to add the cable (around a buck a foot) and the sliders, but it sounds like you're going to have the SS in the woods any way, and it would take little to fab up a mount for it. They do have reverse and "free spool". You could spin the SS sideways real easy on a small trail and haul it up to you. If you have deep pockets, I've seen a winch with a grapple made for SS's, don't know who makes it but that would do it all for you as you could carry out reasonable size stuff respecting the landowners wishes not to damage his trails. The SS winch/grapple was the same basic idea as this but a bit more compact.

  

  

 

Randy88

Thanks guys for helping explain this to me.     

I seldom do logs longer than 10 feet and most are far less than 8 feet and usually really crooked and almost impossible to grab enough material with the grapple bucket on the skid steer to ever worry about tipping it over, that and I can cut them shorter than the skid steer is wide, after all its just firewood I'm going to block up anyhow.   

I was planning on taking two skid steers to this project anyhow, one to winch with and another to use the grapple bucket on.   

711ac, what brand and size of winch did you get for your project and how does the free wheel work, is it dogs that engage or a clutch mechanism, where did you get it, any model number or anything on it?    I was quoted 7500 bucks on a new farmi hydraulic setup and right now the free firewood isn't looking so cheap, I'd better opt for plan B, start building something I can almost afford.    How did you do yours, just a simple winch or did you put it in an A frame setup with a blade on it?    Any pictures of your setup?

I was thinking I'd hook a self releasing snatch block to a tree along the trail and that would give me a straight pull to the skid steer or as close to straight as I'd get most of the time, or else turn the skid steer sideways to the trail and winch that way.


John Mc

I have a PTO driven winch, I have no problems releasing under a load. To pull, I pull on one rope to engage the clutch. When I let go, the brake automatically engages. To release the brake, I pull on another rope. If I pull this second rope all the way, it latches the brake off, so I can freewheel the cable out. I have never had to back up the tractor to take tension off the cable.

If you haven't seen one in action, here's a decent logging winch video from Labonville's site. I'm not saying that's the brand you need, but it gives you an idea how they work.  NOTE: self releasing snatch block in use starting at about 1:30.  You can probably find lots of other videos on youtube.

Not being able to turn the tractor sideways on the trail is no big deal as long as you have a tree or stump to tie a snatch block to. I tend to use a self-releasing snatch block for this, since after I pull the logs out, I like to turn the corner and lay them parallel to the trail along the edge (so I can still drive by with my tractor). If you want to leave them across the trail, I guess you wouldn't need the self-releasing feature.

hauling a log all the way out of the woods one or two at a time in a grapple on your skid steer might get old after while. You might want to park a trailer at a wide spot in the trail, and load that up till its full, then bring the trailer load out all at once.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

711ac

Look over the specs, drum capacity, line speed, & capacity.
http://www.awdirect.com/hydraulic-winches/
Go to the site and look at the Ramsey line of winches. You'll see a small "t" handle on the side. This simply dis-enguages (pull & 1/4 turn) the motor from the planetary drive set up and the spool is then free to spin. To re-enguage it you give it a 1/4 turn and pull out a foot of cable until it springs back into position.
I think the tractor winches are superior, but not for all machinery and machine situations. With your situation wanting to use the SS, it's your only choice. I'm cheap and just like to build things and I couldn't figure out how to make the clutch for a pto driven winch and wanted the grapple anyway to also keep the wood off the ground as much as possible.

W5E2J

Randy, I will second what John just said. I happen to have a Norse winch mounted on a 30 Hp tractor and already have a stack of over 200 pine logs that I have managed to salvage from bug killed trees in the last 2 months of periodic work. I can tell you that the most efficient way is to drag your wood a short distance to a loading point and then load it on a wagon or a trailer. Definitely get a self releasing snatch block to keep your pulls in line. It is surprising how much wood these winches will allow you to pull with a small tractor. For loading the wood the skid steer cannot be beat. For skidding, the tractor is superior. W. Jones

John Mc

I'm actually looking at a grapple for the front of my 33 HP tractor to help with loading (the bucket stinks for that work: with the toothbar on, I can sometimes pick up a log, but it's not very stable. Tongs hung off the bucket work, but are still a bit of a hassle).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

peterpaul

I have a Kubota L4330 with a Wallenstein FX85 PTO winch, self releasing snatch block and Grapple (not a grapple bucket or forks) on the front similar to this http://www.frostbitegrapple.com.  I cannot believe how easy it is to pull the cable out (freewheel) and winch logs/trees out.  I do not have pictures of my set up but will add them when I can.  I winch logs across my roads or where I can pick up the logs with my grapple.  I cut my logs to 12' and have no issue with my roads getting my logs out.  One point to remember is to keep the Grapple low to the ground as it greatly increases the stability of the tractor.  Do not pick up the logs any higher than required when traveling.   I like to transport my logs with the grapple as they stay clean making it easier to mill or cut them into firewood.  It is slower than skidding the logs out however.  I have some fairly steep narly terrain and my tractor never leaves my roads.  Occasionally I will park the tractor across the road if space permits.  The self releasing snatch block makes it a breeze to "re-direct" a log to avoid obstructions and/or to keep the line of pull directly behind the tractor.
Woodmizer LT15, Kubota 4330 GST, Wallenstein FX 85, Timberwolf TW6, homemade firewood conveyor

John Mc

PeterPaul, that Frostbite grapple looks a lot like the one I just looked at today. I'm debating between that and one of the LandPride Grapples (probably the SGC06 or SGC10).

The LandPride style probably has the edge for grabbing brush, but that's not a major concern of mine. I'm not sure which would be better for grabbing logs. How are you liking your style of grapple for log handling?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Randy88

John, for what its worth, I've used the land pride style and if your wanting it for logs, I'd recommend something different completely.    The land pride style with one arm on top that is that wide, isn't the best for logs, what happens is you can't tip the log back far enough to hold it, and with logs, one end will be larger than the other and unless you have a much better support on the bottom of the log, the log will constantly keep slipping out and falling off.     You either need a narrower clamp style like has been mentioned or two top clamps that work independently of each other so you can clamp both ends of the log tight.     The brush style like land pride's is great for brush, but not logs, your better off with a rock bucket style with a much better lifting and cradling of the log, and two top clamps that work independently of each other, you'll be much happier.   If you plan on picking up several logs at once, those of land pride's brush grapple would be my last choice of any on the market. 

I've had a demolition grapple for almost a decade now, we use it for everything from logs, firewood, tops concrete to anything we can grab onto with it, mine is similar to a rock skeleton bucket with two independent grabs on top, love it for what its diversity of use's it has.    I'm not sure how many thousand hours we've used my grapple bucket but I wasn't impressed with the brush grapples at all, very limited use's that they work great for and far more they don't work at all for.

I've been investigating the version 711 was discussing and the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards buying a new hydraulic winch and for now just putting together a frame for just the winch to use.     

Then the idea of a log grapple that rotates and I can also put a winch into it, would be ideal, I've never used the rotating grapple before, but it sure is appealing the more I think about it, that might take some considerable thinking on how to go about building a grapple assembly and frame to fit everything into it.       

As for loading up logs onto a trailer, I talked to the landowner, he has crops on his ridge he doesn't want anything brought up and out and hurt his crops, but didn't have any issue with me stock piling the logs along the edge of the timber on top, as long as I'd stack them neatly and out of his way, then when the crops are out and I'd have time, I could go in and load them up then haul them out.       He has a grassed area around the whole perimeter of the farm next to the timber so we could work all summer long winching and staging logs.     

John Mc

Thanks everyone for the grapple tips. Looks as though I'll go for the Frostbite style grapple

Quote from: Randy88 on April 01, 2016, 07:58:18 AM
As for loading up logs onto a trailer, I talked to the landowner, he has crops on his ridge he doesn't want anything brought up and out and hurt his crops, but didn't have any issue with me stock piling the logs along the edge of the timber on top, as long as I'd stack them neatly and out of his way, then when the crops are out and I'd have time, I could go in and load them up then haul them out.       He has a grassed area around the whole perimeter of the farm next to the timber so we could work all summer long winching and staging logs.     

I guess I'm not following this. Are you saying a trailer is a problem due to possible damage to his crops? Seems as though you could put the trailer where your log pile was going to be, and just pile it into the trailer instead. I'm just thinking fewer trips, and possibly faster trips if the logs are in the trailer.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Randy88

I was given this stuff two weeks ago, its been raining ever since and the forecast for the next two weeks is rain, he put a ban on me driving on his fields anything after the 15th of April so it won't mud up or rut up his fields as he's getting ready to plant for this spring, once his corn is planted, I can't get my semi near the timber at all his corn blocks the path between the timber and the driveway, so he's given me permission to stock pile the logs for the summer along his timber's edge out of his way and once his corn is harvested this fall, I can then drive in and near the logs and load them up and haul them out then.   

The timber is in ravines off the ridge top of the farm, at most maybe 400 feet deep, all his atv trails lead back up the ridge top and wind along the side hills in the timber ground.

The loggers hauled everything out this past winter when the ground was frozen and after he was done harvesting corn, they basically drove across his corn field with a forwarder to his private drive that was almost a mile long, and then loaded semi's log trailers near the main road.     

A log loading trailer behind a tractor or forwarder would be ideal but I don't have either, so I'll wait it out till after the corn is harvested and drive up into his fields and then load the logs up and haul them out.   

I only have semi and dump trailer to haul this stuff out with.   

Not sure this makes sense or not, but yes your right, its best to take the trailer to the logs, but I have to time it so his crops are not growing or I damage his fields or get my semi stuck and most importantly, keep the land owner happy so I can keep getting firewood logs for years to come.   

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