LT70 vs. used Meadows circle saw

[cookstove]

Within the last year, my partner and I purchased a sawmill business that supplies rough cut lumber, as well as posts and poles, to agricultural customers in the Rocky Mountain region.  We cut a lot of 1x and 2x for corrals, siding, barns, etc.  We also cut beams and timbers for bridges, trailer decks, and exposed residential uses.

We currently have two mills: 1 ) a D&L Double Cut and 2) a Woodmizer LT40HD.  We have a fixed location, so mill portability is not a huge benefit for us.  We cut mainly Doug Fir and some pine.

We are frustrated that our two mills presently seem to spend more time down than up.  I think both are fairly worn and could use a good rebuild/workover.  We currently have no stand-alone edger or additional resaw capacity.  We really need to increase our output.

We are considering changing our sawmill mix as follows:

1) rebuild the D&L, sell the LT40HD, and get a new LT70 w/ resaw attachment (net cost of around $60k); or,

2) rebuild the D&L, rebuild the LT40HD, buy a lightly used (623 hours) Meadows Portable circle mill with Perkins power, and get an edger (net cost of around $45k).

I lean toward #2, while my partner leans toward #1.  Maybe there are other options that we should consider.

I'm looking for any feedback on our situation.  TIA.

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, cookstove!

[Ron Wenrich]

Sounds like you really like the D&L.  Is the Meadows a handset mill or is it the hydraulic version? 

Right now, I'm trying to visualize your operation.  The D&L gives you the opportunity to saw and edge at the same time.  But, your Woodmizer doesn't have that capability.  Does that mean you edge on your Woodmizer, or are you using it primarily as a resaw?  If you're edging on the Woodmizer, an edger will increase your production quickly.   Would the edger mean that you wouldn't need the D&L?

If you are looking at a handset mill, your production would probably fall in the 6-7 Mbf/day range, maybe a bit more.  An automatic mill would bring that up to about 10 Mbf/day.  A lot depends on your setup, your cutting pattern and the amount of help you have.  Log decks are always a good way to keep a log supply handy, and a log turner is essential if you have an automatic mill or saw big logs.  Saw upkeep is a bit cheaper in circle mills. But, you end up with more sawdust.

You may look at a setup as a circle mill for primary breakdown where you saw your log to a cant, then send it for resaw.  You could double a band mill as a resaw, and the resaw attachment would allow you to do lap siding and the like. 

[longtime lurker]

How big are your logs? what is the size range of 80% of them, how big is the top ten percent, and how small will you accept. Every equipment decision is determined by log size and volume required.

Having said that, there's a nice little Kara listed with sponsor Sawmill Exchange. Looking at the table rolls I'd say it's not been worked overly hard, and theyre a nice little bench.

[dgdrls]

Welcome to the FF Cookstove,
Great folks here with a ton of knowledge
I'm certain you will get great recommendations

Dan

[cookstove]

Thank you for the welcomes and replies.

Longtime, most of our logs are 12-18 inches, with only a few reaching up to 30 or more inches and a few under 10, which we rarely saw.

The available Meadows is handset, with hydraulic dogs and turner.  The Meadows mill can be seen at (Craigslist link removed by administrator)

I like the promise of the D&L, but, as I said, it's been hard to keep it running well.  Also, the setup and cutting process for each log seems slow.

Thanks, Ron, for your thoughts.  I wonder if the D&L will even have a job if we get a decent breakdown mill and an edger.  Maybe we'd choose to sell it.

How much does a small-scale, stationary circle (or band) mill cost new?  What makes and models might I want to consider?  I tend to think that portable mills, whether band or circle, are quite disadvantaged in production capacity versus stationary mills.  I think my partner is concerned about buying a used mill with issues that we'll be fighting, as with our current mills.

Thanks again for the replies!

[Ron Wenrich]

The mill looks like a fairly new mill.  Meadows makes a decent mill and they have been in business a long time, so parts are readily available.  You may also be able to upgrade the mill by adding an automatic setworks, cant flippers and hydraulic tapers.  Those are all time savers, which results in more production.

I've run some antique handset mills.  Parts are always a problem.  I've run a portable mill which was set up stationary.  The nice thing about a portable mill is that everything is welded together, and you are able to be up and running within hours.  We also put in a bigger stationary mill.  Start up took a lot longer than expected, but we converted over to electric.  Running wires and the like took a lot of time.

Production capacity is usually limited by support.  A mill without a debarker won't produce as much as one with a debarker.  Dirt slows down the operation.   A mill using cant hooks to turn logs won't produce as much as one with turn downs or log turner.  The stationary mill is usually built a little heavier and usually has a hydraulic feed that is quicker then the friction feed.  All those bells and whistles cost more money. 

The Meadows should be able to handle all the logs you have described.  The 30 inch logs are more of a challenge, but its all in sawing technique. 

[longtime lurker]

For logs in that size bracket I like the hydraulic rack benches - Kara, Laimet, Slidetec being the most common brands on the market.

Reasons I like them - Very accurate. Sizing accuracy is the best of any circular system I've ever played with.
                             - Optioned correctly they are a stand alone sytem... no need for edgers or resaws, the bench can take a log and turn it into sized boards without requiring resaws, edgers etc etc. The only thing it can't do is dock.
                             - They can be a medium capacity resaw. It mightnt do 50t a day, but I've used one running as a number two behind a conventional circle and that was a consistant 20t/day setup with three men.
                             - Adequately optioned they lend themselves well to small operations that are productive in terms of production per man day.

Drawbacks - Log size is limited to around the 24" mark for the standard saw, and 36" with the topsaw. IMHO if you're getting significant numbers of oversize its better to have a second mill to reduce them to manageable (we use a Lucas for that), but if its just the odd one here and there the topsaw would be worth a look.
                 - Kerf - its a circle mill after all. Personally I think unless you're playing with valuable logs then its more profitable to make extra sawdust and buy more logs then play with bands... but others see that differently. Coarse dust off circles has a higher demand/value then wood flour from bands anyway.
                 - They wont match other systems for flat out production once you start looking at combined sawlines. A conventional carriage circle if its backed by gangsaws and edgers will outproduce it all day. An end dogging scragg with a resaw behind it will eat them both. And if you start all three of the above on the first of the month they might almost do as much production for the month (combined) as a quad canter does if you start the canter on the 30th.

In every case however its the support equipment that determines production. How logs get to the saw, how boards/cants get away from the saw and go to wherever they need to go. How edgings and sawdust are dealt with. Materials flow is always the deciding factor in production and profitability. Does something happen automatically or does a man need to handle that?

I like the things. They can work stand alone but have enough capacity to fit in as a capable #2 in big logs - or as a capable primary in front of a resaw in medium logs. They make accurately sized lumber. They will cut boards as straight as you want to make them do it. They lend themselves to very manpower efficient small producers and I believe that in the developed world that last is what determines who survives and who fails.

To get a handle on one try this link. I'd consider this a "real world" demonstration... not some factory weenie driving it, or a newcomer, or a guy working as part of a sawline, or a "perfect world" show demo.... just some old dude going about his business same as he does it every day. The rack bench equivalent of watching MagicMan drive an LT40 I'd imagine.  :D
Its the mobile variant of a Kara F2000 being powered by a tractor PTO and theres people standing around to lift stuff away rather then having chains and belts for materials handling, and hes using the mobile load system not a stop and load feeder on a live deck but.... replace the manpower with the equipment and the saw speed would still be about right... day in day out production this is where they sit: 10 logs an hour if you can keep logs up to it and material going away. No edgers, no resaws... just the mill and someone else stacking lumber and loading the log deck for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9T-g4Hw0XY

Pricing on a new Laimet 130 as of three months ago was around $50k EURO ex factory. That was stationary, with sawdust blower, 75 HP three phase power, stop and load for a log deck, debarker, and the digital sizing system. A topsaw would have added $8k euro.

[Dave Shepard]

I don't mean to offend, but that thing looks dreadful to run.

[Peter Drouin]

I would go with a 70 then that one.

[bkaimwood]

X2...cool video, but alot of "manual", or hands on operation for a hydraulic production mill...with at least 3 hands in the background, seemingly bored WAY to often...

[longtime lurker]

I see it a bit different guys - but then I know the equipment so that gives me some ground to analysis it against. Here's what I see:

Theres two logs... both around 16' long or maybe a touch more. One has a diameter of about 10", the other is a 18". That gives us a volume of roughly a cube, call it 400BF for a round number. Target size is 5/4" x 6". They arent chasing shorts and there are short 1x4's going into the edgings pile that I can see.

In 11 minutes of cutting heres what we get:
       He's face cutting as he goes - % loss to excess deflection - NIL.
                                                              % requiring edging - NIL
                       % requiring resaw for reason other then grade - NIL
                                      % out of grade due to thick and thin - NIL
Accuracy of finished product (assuming the saw is tuned right) - +/- about 1/32"
Number of steps taken by the operator - about 4, and thats because hes mobile not stationary.

They aint rockets for sure - but theres still another 48 minutes to do it again in that hour - or 4 more times. Thats about 2MBF per hour of throughput with only three items coming off - sawdust, edgings, and accurately sawn finished boards. My experience around them tells me that about right for softwood.

I agree about the manpower but thats a portable rig - that same mill sitting stationary with live deck, greenchain, and slab conveyor to chipper will get that production with just two people... one to saw and one to stack and sticker, and both pretty tired by the end of the day.




                                                     

[killamplanes]

ya I'm thinkin 70, with drag back finger u won't regret it, that one looks painfull

[Percy]

I spoke with a guy at the Prince George Forest expo in about 2002 who was demo-ing a Kara Master sliding table type saw similar to the one seen in the video. He was from alberta and said he cut 8000 bdft a day of 5/4 aspen(easy cutting). I watched him for a couple hours and the guy had shoulders like Swartzenagger and a strong back. He also said that big logs were a pain(edging factor). That linebar/fence thingie works sooooo well. Every board I measured was exactly 5/4. Might be as warped as Donald Trump :D but the uniform thickness was second to none. I have a 70 since 2003 and could not match that mills output. I bought the 70 because I deal with the "pain" logs consistantly. 8300+ was the best day I ever had with the 70 and it was dimentions much larger than 5/4. Sliding table mills are much better than most think. They work very well with smaller uniform timber...

[Ron Wenrich]

Those mills have never caught on in the States.  I believe I understand how they work, and they probably work pretty well in softwoods.  How do they work in hardwoods where you're sawing for grade?  I don't see any dogging system. and that worries my about relieving tension in the log.  But, basically the support system for those types of mills are lacking in the States.

[Upper]

Dislike the Donald Trump shot,especially from a foreigner.

[Peter Drouin]

18mbf in 10 hr with that mill I think that is a stretch.

[dgdrls]

Within the last year, my partner and I purchased a sawmill business that supplies rough cut lumber, as well as posts and poles, to agricultural customers in the Rocky Mountain region.  We cut a lot of 1x and 2x for corrals, siding, barns, etc.  We also cut beams and timbers for bridges, trailer decks, and exposed residential uses.

We currently have two mills: 1 ) a D&L Double Cut and 2) a Woodmizer LT40HD.  We have a fixed location, so mill portability is not a huge benefit for us.  We cut mainly Doug Fir and some pine.

We are frustrated that our two mills presently seem to spend more time down than up.  I think both are fairly worn and could use a good rebuild/workover.  We currently have no stand-alone edger or additional resaw capacity.  We really need to increase our output.

We are considering changing our sawmill mix as follows:

1) rebuild the D&L, sell the LT40HD, and get a new LT70 w/ resaw attachment (net cost of around $60k); or,

2) rebuild the D&L, rebuild the LT40HD, buy a lightly used (623 hours) Meadows Portable circle mill with Perkins power, and get an edger (net cost of around $45k).

I lean toward #2, while my partner leans toward #1.  Maybe there are other options that we should consider.

I'm looking for any feedback on our situation.  TIA.

Good morning,

thinking out loud after revisiting the OP.

Certainly the 40 could be rebuilt and would manage the the smaller logs and 1x sawing for a while.
If you added an LT 70 you could run the larger logs on that mill and saw out the siding & post and beams on it.
Your operation would realize the benefit of one system of milling and you could still produce in a similar fashion
if either one goes down.

Another option to consider is a dimension mill such as a Mighty Mite or Mahoe
however, that would potentially keep you in a mix of band and circular blade to manage.

Standardization and overlap of mill capabilities should boost production and help
limit outage problems.

Dan

[Dave Shepard]

Dislike the Donald Trump shot,especially from a foreigner.

Foreigners aren't allowed opinions? You've never had an opinion of some other countries political leaders?

[4x4American]

I still like this mill..someone posted awhile back.  I think its more set up for sawing cross ties not sure how long it saws or accuracy or whatever, but this thing, to me, is impressive.  Might be fine for sawing beams..might not.  Might be too expensive, I don't know, but here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBYPYUAOEkI

[killamplanes]

now that's a high production tie maker

[Ron Wenrich]

Impressive as long as you're sawing ties with no regard for grade.  Also, sawing soft maple and all the logs are about the same size and no taper setting. 

But, as pointed out before, support equipment is where you get your production.  What would the production be like if there wasn't an automatic setworks?  How about the log turner or the automatic dogs?  The only thing you have to battle is sawyer fatigue.

[Percy]

Dislike the Donald Trump shot,especially from a foreigner.

Foreigners aren't allowed opinions? You've never had an opinion of some other countries political leaders?

Dislike the Donald Trump shot,especially from a foreigner.

Thanks for the support Dave, but if memory serves me correctly, I did mess up as I believe Jeff does not allow political discussions for obvious reasons...So I would edit that comment out if I could(too late) and I apologise to Mr. Upper. It was meant in humor without malace.

[4x4American]

Percy you can edit it out if you so choose.  Just go back to the comment and press modify. 

[starmac]

Percy if it helps any, I took it as humor and never thought anything about it, plus so far he is my choice. lol
But then again I consider Canadians more as neighbors than I do foreigners too, so my thinking may be flawed. lol