Safest way to take down tall thin pines.

[Gary_C]

One thing about row thinning. When you decide to take out a row and stick to a formula (every third row) you effectively remove 1/3rd of the poor trees, 1/3rd of the average trees and 1/3rd of the best trees. If you can space that out to every fourth or fifth row the opportunity to take more of the poor quality trees increases dramatically. Taking every third row has been used for years and it works well but there is room for improvement.

Clark

Except that some studies have shown that a top down thinning, ie. taking the best first, is not a bad thing in red pine. The worst place for a third row thinning is where you have a lot of disease and mortality and then you are stuck with taking out a row even when there are poor trees and gaps in adjacent rows. That's exactly the problem in the white pine stand I am presently thinning. Leaves a lot of gaps to be filled in with the ever-present boxelder and other undesirables.

I also learned the "tongue and groove" at a GOL class, but it was not called tongue and groove and not done like the bozo in the video did it. The point is not to make the tongue and the groove. That is not what steers it, What steers it is the fact that the sides of the hinge are still intact, steering the tree on the way down.

I agree. I've never taken a GOL class per se but what that "bozo" did was crazy dangerous. Once that wedge broke the tree loose it was a free fall. No hinge and the tree was free to go which direction it wanted. That 2 or 3 inch tongue and groove could not out muscle even a 20 foot tall tree.

[John Mc]

I agree. I've never taken a GOL class per se but what that "bozo" did was crazy dangerous. Once that wedge broke the tree loose it was a free fall. No hinge and the tree was free to go which direction it wanted. That 2 or 3 inch tongue and groove could not out muscle even a 20 foot tall tree.

He didn't show the front of the tree as he was making his back cuts, but done right, there should have been a bit of hinge left on either side of the initial bore cut. That is what is supposed to steer the tree on its way down. You are also supposed to do a second, partial bore offset just above or below the first, also coming in from the front and going just deep enough to pass through the hinge. This creates some extra space, keeping the wedge from lifting the whole tree and breaking the hinge.

[RHP Logging]

I get roped into handcutting a couple loads of pine a year.  Usually first thinning often red. Its always part of a package deal with big hardwood timber on site.  My forester usually marks these stands in pockets, which seems to work out for handcutting and it looks better than just taking rows.  Just taking a row is easier, but like was said it removes poor and good trees. I always cut these stands on a windy day ( at least 15mph) because the top movement allows the trees to roll thru the others and hit the ground.  On a calm day it takes VERY little to hang them up.  Once you get a hole started just keep piling the trees in there.  Obviously you need to maintain a hinge on windy days and you need to be cool headed about it.  On small timber backcut first put yer wedge in then face. That tounge and groove cut is too easy to cut one side of the hinge off on small dbh.  By backcutting first you can maintain a full hinge and still wedge.  You can't let the movement of the tree freak you out.  Once its commited i snip off the rest of the hinge so they can roll. Watch out for them whipping when they hit other trees.  You are going to want to get the hell out of there asap. Thinning pine by hand sucks and there is little money in it when its said and done.

[davidn3]

I did think about every 4th or 5th row.  But it looks tough to thin bad trees 2 rows over from the cut row.  Looks like it'd just get hung up on other trees.  The trees per acre info mentioned earlier.  Where is this info found?  Is there a calculator and a guideline to what I should be shooting for?

[Gary_C]

My forester usually marks these stands in pockets, which seems to work out for handcutting and it looks better than just taking rows.  Just taking a row is easier, but like was said it removes poor and good trees.

Taking out pockets does the same thing but on a more concentrated basis.

The primary objective to a pine thinning is to allow sunlight to reach every tree  for better growth. The ideal method on a first thinning would be to space out all the trees to about a ten to twelve foot spacing. The worst method would be to take out trees in isolated pockets and leave the rest of the stand crowded for sunlight. Function will always outweigh looks.

Taking out rows on a first thinning also gives you access to the stand for further work and is the best compromise between the ideal plan and others.

[WildlandFirefighter912]

Tannerite.

[Gary_C]

Moronic.

[pine]

Watched the video a couple of times and I am not sure how the "hinge" is working.  Seems to me that it breaks well before it should have and thus there is no controlling of the fall.  Is that the reason a couple have refereed to him as a bozo because he fails to have a proper hinge?

[WildlandFirefighter912]

Moronic.

Lol.

Hey, it has been done..especially on them burning snags

[John Mc]

My apologies for calling him a bozo. This first time I watched, the playback stalled right after the tree hit the ground. I thought it was done, and never saw the stump or butt of the log. In looking at those, it appears he did have a hinge. Not sure how long into the fall it lasted, but it appears to have been there.

I've also never felled a palm tree, so who am I to judge?

Still don't see a good reason to be using a metal wedge - especially for a professional tree service (judging from the vehicle in the background). You'd think he would have appropriate equipment. I also see no reason for the large offset between the bore cut and the back cuts. That is asking for trouble: the hinge can be compromised, and the further away they get, the more it encourages barber chair (though I have no idea if palm trees are prone to that or not. The notch created by that offset is not really contributing to guiding the tree.

[Gary_C]

Hey, it has been done..especially on them burning snags

Is that right after you say "Hold my beer and watch this?"

:D :D :D

[Clark]

I did think about every 4th or 5th row.  But it looks tough to thin bad trees 2 rows over from the cut row.  Looks like it'd just get hung up on other trees.  The trees per acre info mentioned earlier.  Where is this info found?  Is there a calculator and a guideline to what I should be shooting for?

An acre is 43,560 ft². So multiply the average spacing between rows and between trees and divide 43,560 by that number. This will give you TPA.

When it comes to thinning red pine it's hard to beat taking 1/3 of the trees in that first thinning (if you hit just right I would recommend taking 40% of the trees but you are past that). Trying to work out TPA in thinned stands (or implementing such an idea) is difficult. Working on percents is much easier but those percents are based on removing a certain basal area. Your stand is likely close to 200 ft² basal area, possibly more. Ideally you thin red pine to ~90 ft² and let it grow to 140-150 ft². So your stand is over-stocked by a long shot. That is why I would recommend doing two thinnings, spaced 5 years apart. That will get you close to where the stand should be after the first thinning.

The other thing to keep in mind when thinning spindly pine is that the edge trees are much more wind-firm than the interior trees. I tend to leave the north and west sides a little bit thicker because those trees will handle the wind better than interior trees. A sure way to see the whole plantation fall over is to take the outside two rows of trees on the N and W sides and in the next thunderstorm you will see many trees tipped over or leaning to the point of no return.

Gary - Yes top-down thinning can work with red pine but you end up with a stand that never increases its' average diameter. It sounds like the OP wants a stand of girthy red pine and who can blame him?

Clark

[CCC4]

That tongue and groove video has been around a while. Seems like one of the few. I would steer away from uing that cut for sure.

Easiest and best way to handle this is bring in someone with a cutting machine and do the job in a day or two. They can bunch all timber in the rows to eliminate scarring of the remaining timber. Hand falling rowed pine can make a veteran faller wanna punch himself in the face...all day long. It sucks bad! I will usually just make a call to my boss and tell him to bring in the Hydro Ax before I go to the house. It's not so much getting the timber down...it's the removal...ya just can't set everything up and be even near as productive as a cutting machine.

If you were cutting it all...heck yeh, start at the edge and cut like Hell.

Another thing is the danger of thinning pine. There is so much deflection from other trees that you really don't know what to expect next. If you get tired, it could cost you at the least broke legs. I have had them swing through the air face high before...not a pretty site!

Just hire someone to come in and cut it for you. Sell what you can't use, mill the rest.

[47sawdust]

I think CC4 is right on the money.A mechanized feller will make short work of the job.The power company just hired one to do a clear cut of a red pine plantation that was continually taking out the power lines.Job was all done in 6 hours.
My experience has not been good sawing red pine plantation stock.Seemed to be a lot of stress that did not reveal it self until the drying process.

[barbender]

     Plantation red can disappoint when sawn. It does have a tendency to twist in warp when drying.

[davidn3]

I think CC4 is right on the money.A mechanized feller will make short work of the job.

The best easiest way to do anything is hire someone to do it.  Not trying to make a living off of the trees.  Maybe a good retirement in 30 years.  So if I pay someone every time want a tree taken down, then I'd be in a lot of dept by the time I retire.  Have to learn sometime.  I have plenty of equipment to get the job done, so I might as well save the money. 

[RHP Logging]

My forester usually marks these stands in pockets, which seems to work out for handcutting and it looks better than just taking rows.  Just taking a row is easier, but like was said it removes poor and good trees.

Taking out pockets does the same thing but on a more concentrated basis.

The primary objective to a pine thinning is to allow sunlight to reach every tree  for better growth. The ideal method on a first thinning would be to space out all the trees to about a ten to twelve foot spacing. The worst method would be to take out trees in isolated pockets and leave the rest of the stand crowded for sunlight. Function will always outweigh looks.

Taking out rows on a first thinning also gives you access to the stand for further work and is the best compromise between the ideal plan and others.

I guess i shouldn't have called them pockets.  Daylight is made through out the stand just in some places more than others and i have to cut in to get the forwarder in there.  Here pine is not native so its usually three cuts and all but a few exceptional specimans are gone.  We want the hardwoods back.

[RHP Logging]

I think CC4 is right on the money.A mechanized feller will make short work of the job.

The best easiest way to do anything is hire someone to do it.  Not trying to make a living off of the trees.  Maybe a good retirement in 30 years.  So if I pay someone every time want a tree taken down, then I'd be in a lot of dept by the time I retire.  Have to learn sometime.  I have plenty of equipment to get the job done, so I might as well save the money.

I hope you plan a short retirement.  Red pine is currently getting 115/cord here.   Minus 30-40 for trucking.  If you personally cut it you may net 50-60/cord.  Pine  stumpage here is usually 5-10 bucks per cord.  Thats if someone else cuts it and they pay you. Ive heard of higher where pulp is the game, but not in sawtimber county.  Red pine sawlogs don't pay worth a dam either.  Clearcut now and plant hardwoods.  Maybe your grandkids can have that nice retirement then.

[davidn3]

No trucking involved.  Will be milled and sold right on the property.   Already have plenty of hardwood.  Nice to keep the veriety. 

[sandsawmill14]

david it will be hard but that IMO it is alot safer to learn on 10-12" stumps than on the 20"+ but when it starts over run like it was a bear as you never know what it is gonna do when it starts crashing into other tree tops and if it hangs pull it down instead of trying to knock it down with another tree or cutting it down and wear the ppe especially the hard hat even when dragging the logs out even trees that small will break a leg or whatever else they get on so just go slow and take your time till you get a feel for it and be safe

[teakwood]

Here is a good Technic to cut small diameter trees. I use it a lot in my teak plantations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1r3qJK4Rrw

[John Mc]

Nice video, Teakwood.

I understand the cuts he made onthe sides, before cutting the notch.  What were the little nips he took at 0:40 and 0:44, right after cutting the notch?

[teakwood]

This nips are to mark the hinge 2 or 3" wide so you make the back cut and make it until the mark (those little nips). But thats actually school technic. Most professional cutters dont do that because its a waste of time.

[John Mc]

This nips are to mark the hinge 2 or 3" wide so you make the back cut and make it until the mark (those little nips). But thats actually school technic. Most professional cutters dont do that because its a waste of time.

Got it. I've not seen anyone around here do that (professional or landowner). I guess we all figure if we could eyeball the right distance to make the nips, we could eyeball it when making the back cut as well.

[Ianab]

The offset back cut does make sense though. Gives you some place to set your wedge or felling lever in a small tree that might be a problem wedging in a regular back cut.

I'd do the guide nicks the first few times. But then again sometime I will scratch out my cutting plan in the bark before I start, especially large trees on uneven ground. Just easier to get things lined up before you are leaning over a saw. Once you have it right you should be able to eyeball it.

Problem you are most likely to have with an overcrowded pine plantation is the tops being intertwined. You can't get the tree over enough for gravity to take over and pull the skinny stick free. In that case a cable and winch is the way to go, but of course that makes the slower.

Locally plantation pine is thinned early, only once, and generally just left to rot in place.  Because there is no harvest you don't have to clear rows for machine access, so the spacing can be left more "random". Poor quality trees are the first to go, then any more that need to come down to give a sensible final spacing.