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Safest way to take down tall thin pines.

Started by davidn3, March 20, 2016, 08:00:29 PM

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davidn3

On my property, I have 2 planted pine patches.  One patch is 15 rows with 75 trees in a row, and another is 25 rows with 75 in a row.  They are probably 60-70ft tall.  Most are 6"-10" wide with the perimeter trees being 12"+.  They have never been thinned and I'd like to take out every other tree in a row.  They really make me timid due to the swaying.  I'm getting a log winch in the near future, probably a fransgard v4000.  so I have the ability to use a cable to pull the tree after the v cut.  Just wandering if anyone has experience in this area and the safes approach.  I also plan to get a mill and mill these pines, but thinning is the primary purpose. 

madmari

If it makes you nervous, have a professional do the cutting. A professional makes it look easy, even if it isn't.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

davidn3

If I was going to do it myself, what would be the best way?

thecfarm

I sure don't know the best way,but I would wait for that winch. Make your cut and let it fall as much as it will,try not to hold too much on the stump,put a rolling hitch onto it,have at least a 50 foot pull and winch away. The rolling pull should turn it on the stump,do not try to pull it straight,won't work,need to roll it off the stump. You want your hook on the side of the tree. Some one might have a better,safer way too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

davidn3

Thanks.  Thats a good idea about the rolling pull.  Definitely wasn't going to try much without the winch.  As far as the cut goes.  just a v cut?  would you even put a back cut in it at all for the thinner 6-8" trees? 

4x4American

Do a tongue and groove cut, that way you can wedge the small diameter trees.  If you are inexperienced at falling trees, you might want to look into taking the Game of Logging Course.  Read some literature.  Don't just go out there and start cutting willy nilly, that's a good way to get yourself seriously hurt or killed. 


Here's a basic example of it in a youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLkgWFh9lDs


I use a 2' hatchet for pounding wedges, works good.  Don't be like this clown using a claw hammer...See how they had to fast forward the video cause it took so long to pop the groove out.  With an ax or hatchet you could do that much quicker.
Boy, back in my day..

4x4American

Where are you located btw?  Would be helpful to update your profile info.  Welcome to FF btw
Boy, back in my day..

davidn3

Nice video.  Thanks.  I'm in central NY. at the base of tug hill.  I have some experience cutting, but mostly for firewood.  with a mill coming, I plan to get into logging my land on the side.  The pine patches need thinned about 15 years ago, so that will be the first big project. 

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

davidn3


barbender

     I would second the comment on waiting on that winch before you get started.  I have fairly limited experience falling plantation pine, but the stuff I did cut gave me problems enough. It can be tough to get them to hit the ground. I work on a mechanized cut to length crew now, and even with a processor the tops get tangled in first entry pine. Of course with a processor you can push a button and feed the whole tree through the head and pull it to the ground.  Not an option when hand falling ;)  I have seen pictures of some of the techniques like 4x4 mentioned, that I've never gotten to try myself. The methods are out there, pine does get thinned by hand.  For instance, I bought a Husqvarna felling lever, it is a pry bar with a wedge shaped end, and a small cant hook on it. I tried it a few different ways, with my methods it was a small cant hook that didn't work very well. I've since seen some pictures of one being used that makes me want to go back and try it again. I just didn't know what I was doing. So, the info is out there I think. One other thing I would mention- it sounds like you may have enough timber where you may want to have a forester come and look it over with you. Taking every other tree in a stand that is past due for a thinning might result in too low of a basal area. It's not uncommon for Red pine plantations that are thinned to aggressively to get windthrown. Depending on markets, Red pine can provide a pretty good income so it is worth managing properly.
Too many irons in the fire

davidn3

Where do I find a forester?  And any ideas what they charge?  I agree on the advise.  I did think about not taking too much.  The outer rows are thicker and protecting the inner rows quite a bit. 

barbender

     In our area, there are private consulting foresters. I would think you could get a list of names through a local county extension office, or your local state and county forestry offices. Some of our local state DNR foresters also do private work to the side.  Also, some government agencies will assist with drawing up management plans.  You would have to look around to see what's available in your area. If you straight up hired a forester, I don't really know what they charge. Others on here can advise you better on that end. Sorry if I'm a little vague, I work around these folks a lot but I've never went through the process of contacting and/or hiring one for private work. 

     When we go into a pine thin with CTL equipment, we typically do what is known as a "5th row thin".  That means the processor cuts a row, and reaches over 2 rows on each side and thins. Then you move over 5 rows and repeat. So you end up with a row totally removed, then 4 rows of thinned wood, 1 removed, 4 thinned, all the way across. This is typical practice, as our equipment is wider than plantation rows are usually spaced, therefore  necessitating the removal of a row. If you have a tractor and skidding winch you may have enough room to fit between the rows so you don't have to remove one.
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

That is a big job you are contemplating to do by hand and I would recommend you let someone that has the equipment and knowledge to handle the work. If your counts are right, you can expect to take about a third of the trees which would be 1000 trees and every one of them is going to be a fight in those close quarters of a pine plantation. You will skin up much of what's left when you get the trees you cut hung up and have to drag them out with a winch over a bunch of stumps. You will diminish the value of the remaining stand.

I'm not saying you can't do the job, just that you be aware of the difficulty you will encounter. I do this type of work all the time but I have a harvester and it's still not easy work. Without the ability to man handle those trees and cut to length right in the woods, it will be a very tough job.

That tongue and groove method of cutting is dangerous, leaves you with little control of the tree thru much of the fall and could cause the tree to split and kill you. Plus it will not stop the tree from getting hung up in the tops of other trees, possibly getting wedged between trees and then will be a problem in getting the base loose from the stump.

See if you can get some advice from your state forester or DNR. Here in Minnesota the DNR is supposed to advise private woodland owners about their private woodlots but they have limited time to do so. But it doesn't hurt to ask.

You need to be prepared to answer a bunch of questions like tree species, row and tree spacing, tree height, diameter and acres.   
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

4x4American

Lol I took a GOL course and they taught the tounge and groove for small diameter trees..
They also teach that a humboldt notch is dangerous, but I think its safer and you can do more fancy pants techniques off of it.
Boy, back in my day..

sandsawmill14

david i did something similar on my farm about 10 years ago but mine wasnt planted and was very thick some stunps were 3-4 ft apart but they way i did it was throw all the tops one way and cut a hitch and then drag out. i was using a 85 hp tractor to drag with no winch so i would pile 6-8 on top of each other then drag them out and start cutting again :) mine was syp so there was no chance of splitting or barber chair but the tops  are very brittle and if the top hit another tree it was more likely to break out and come back at you than to hang up but im guessing you have either white or red pine and i dont know anything about them ??? and my trees were a little bigger being from about 10 up to 16" with 12" being a good average. i would cut and drag from 100 to 150 a day by my self but it was long days but there is not much to topping pine that is that thick so that help keep the numbers up. according to how they thin on the farm next to us about a third is what you will want to cut instead of half but again this is syp and i would walk through and mark the ones to be cut so i wasnt trying to figure it out while i was cutting its not necessary but its your stand so you want to do it right ;) if it was 20+" pine i would worry alot more about the danger but tress that small you can get some good experience and learn alot  once you get started you can fell the trees into the open and shouldnt have much trouble with hangups the one good thing about planted pine is they are usually standing straight and tall so if there is not much wind you can put them about anywhere you want to  ;D i always just notched about 1/3 for the face cut then cut if off from the back cut with little to no hinge on trees that small with trees that small it only takes seconds to cut one off with a good 60-70 cc saw wear your ppe and especially a good hardhat/helmet as falling limbs and tops will be the biggest hazard cutting pine and dont cut faster than you can think  :o ;D and if it was around here you would have to do it yourself because no logger would come to a job that small but the guys around here will get 15 or so loads a day thinning :o they clear cut a bout 50 acres that join us in jan and they averaged 20 loads a day and said that they normally would be getting 25-30 but that was all the trucks they could find :o the main thing is go slow and be careful till you get it figured out and be careful  :) like many others on here i have cut 1000s on 1000s of those little pines so it seems as nothing to me but it can be dangerous while learning but any logger with a saw had to learn somewhere and your job sounds as good as any to start ;) just be glad its not 30" hardwood to have to start on :D good luck and be careful :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Ljohnsaw

I know nothing about plantation trees but I'm wondering on the thinning advice (1/2 or 1/3 take out).  Nowhere do I see how close the trees are to each other in the rows or how close the rows are together.  Is there an industry standard for planting and how close they should be at certain diameters?  I get that you want them close when young to promote fast vertical growth and possible self-pruning.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

sandsawmill14

i was just going by how they are planted here most will thin twice they will take about a 1/3 cutting of pulp at 15-20 yrs , another 5-10 years depending on the wood they will take another roughly 1/3 as pine poles (light & telephone poles) then let the rest make saw logs but the way the pine market is they are clear cutting it all as pulp now  ??? i guess they will replant but i dont know the farm that joins us was planted in 91 or 92 and they are clear cutting it now :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Gary_C

The volume to be removed depends on measurement of basal area for the stand but for a uniform stand (plantation) usually taking a third out can get you down to the basal area target.

Row spacing and distance between trees is important in how you thin the stand by mechanical harvesting or hand cutting.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Clark

You've gotten some good advice. If you own 20 acres or more than I would suggest contacting a consulting forester. Less than that and it simply isn't worth their time.

With more timber to cut you could have a logger thin this pine when cutting the other stuff. I don't think this amount of pine would attract a logger, my estimate is that you have 3.5 acres of pine. The good news is that is very doable for a landowner. Listen to Gary when he talks about skinning up the remaining trees, plenty of effort has been put into thinning pine only to leave a bunch of skun up trees that slowly rot from the base.

Thinning pine like you have will require taking rows out. Every other tree isn't a practical method. However wide your tractor is, plus ~2' per side is how wide I would plan on making the skid trails. Hopefully that means just one row of trees but depending on the spacing it might take two rows. Once you start taking out a row of trees then felling becomes much easier. Remove the rows first and then any from the remaining rows. If it is really tight I would suggest taking out the rows, letting it grow for 5 years and then thin between the rows.

Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 21, 2016, 11:32:44 AM...Is there an industry standard for planting and how close they should be at certain diameters?...

Most plantations go in at ~800 TPA. More recently (last 20 years) there has been a definite improvement in trying to make sure there are 8' between rows which will allow machinery into the plantation by taking out one row. There is a good chance the OP has a plantation that is close to 800 TPA (although I have seen red pine planted on a 4'x4' grid!) which makes giving recommendations pretty easy.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Clark on March 21, 2016, 03:31:56 PM
You've gotten some good advice. If you own 20 acres or more than I would suggest contacting a consulting forester. Less than that and it simply isn't worth their time.

I have certainly gotten a lot of great information from this site.  The dense "natural" stand on my land has prompted a couple to mention getting a consulting forester.  I don't know the expense, I'm not selling trees (nor ever plan to) and I would like to think I know what needs to be done.  This is the first time I've seen someone put it in terms of acres.  I've only got 10 acres, so it kind of confirms my gut feeling.

Quote from: Clark on March 21, 2016, 03:31:56 PM
With more timber to cut you could have a logger thin this pine when cutting the other stuff. I don't think this amount of pine would attract a logger, my estimate is that you have 3.5 acres of pine. The good news is that is very doable for a landowner. Listen to Gary when he talks about skinning up the remaining trees, plenty of effort has been put into thinning pine only to leave a bunch of skun up trees that slowly rot from the base.

Thinning pine like you have will require taking rows out. Every other tree isn't a practical method. However wide your tractor is, plus ~2' per side is how wide I would plan on making the skid trails. Hopefully that means just one row of trees but depending on the spacing it might take two rows. Once you start taking out a row of trees then felling becomes much easier. Remove the rows first and then any from the remaining rows. If it is really tight I would suggest taking out the rows, letting it grow for 5 years and then thin between the rows.

Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 21, 2016, 11:32:44 AM...Is there an industry standard for planting and how close they should be at certain diameters?...

Most plantations go in at ~800 TPA. More recently (last 20 years) there has been a definite improvement in trying to make sure there are 8' between rows which will allow machinery into the plantation by taking out one row. There is a good chance the OP has a plantation that is close to 800 TPA (although I have seen red pine planted on a 4'x4' grid!) which makes giving recommendations pretty easy.

Clark

I checked the Forum Dictionary - I don't see anything in there about TPA.  Is it just as simple as Trees Per Acre? 

Also, my OCD keeps getting stuck on the thinning.  If you have trees planted on a fixed grid and you want to take out 1/3, do you not care if all the remaining trees are not evenly spaced?  That would drive me insane :o :D
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

davidn3

Lots of great advise thanks.  My rows are 7ft apart and trees within the row are about 10ft.  I have 52 acres total, but the red pine patches are maybe 10 of that. The patches are on separate sides of the property with hardwood and scotch pine in berween.  The first patch will be great practice.  Plenty of room for my tractor.   I see some good potential in the trees because the scattered scotch pine is 24"-30" wide and 80ft or so tall.  Wish all my red pine looked like that.  After looking at it today I think every third row, then thinning the low quality trees within the rows is easily doable.  There are plenty of 10" -12" trees with potential,  then followed by a 4" 60ft twig.  I really don't plan on bothering a logger.  I have plenty of fence rails and projects I could use the lumber for. 

barbender

  Although I work for a very large logging outfit, it's not unusual for us to cut a 100 cord sale, and even less sometimes when we get in an area where there are small private lots. Last summer, we cut one that was 3 landowners, I think there was 200 cords between all 3. 3 separate landings.  That is one of the benefits of the cut to length system, you only have 2 machines to bring in.  Up here, Red pine is a mainstay of our wood diet, especially in summer, so we take whatever we can get our hands on. Summer accessibility is always a plus.
Too many irons in the fire

Clark

Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 21, 2016, 04:15:05 PMI checked the Forum Dictionary - I don't see anything in there about TPA.  Is it just as simple as Trees Per Acre? 

Correct, TPA = trees per acre.

The OP says 7x10 which equals ~625/acre. Lower than I expected but quite frankly it's probably better. 800, while standard, is a bit higher than usually needed.

One thing about row thinning. When you decide to take out a row and stick to a formula (every third row) you effectively remove 1/3rd of the poor trees, 1/3rd of the average trees and 1/3rd of the best trees. If you can space that out to every fourth or fifth row the opportunity to take more of the poor quality trees increases dramatically. Taking every third row has been used for years and it works well but there is room for improvement.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

John Mc

Quote from: 4x4American on March 21, 2016, 07:34:43 AM
Lol I took a GOL course and they taught the tounge and groove for small diameter trees..
They also teach that a humboldt notch is dangerous, but I think its safer and you can do more fancy pants techniques off of it.

I also learned the "tongue and groove" at a GOL class, but it was not called tongue and groove and not done like the bozo in the video did it. The point is not to make the tongue and the groove. That is not what steers it, What steers it is the fact that the sides of the hinge are still intact, steering the tree on the way down. There is no need to offset the back cuts 3" from the bore cut (that was probably done under the mistaken impression that making the tongue and groove was the goal - it's not, it's a byproduct).  The whole reason for the bore cut is to make a place for the wedge to go, rather than bottoming out against the back of the hinge when wedging a small diameter tree. the back cuts can (and should) be made as close to the height of the wedge as possible (and use a plastic wedge - or something else that won't shred your chain if you mess up and hit it). You keep the back cuts closer to the wedge to keep them more closely aligned with the apex of the notch, helping to form the hinge correctly.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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