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Safest way to take down tall thin pines.

Started by davidn3, March 20, 2016, 08:00:29 PM

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davidn3

On my property, I have 2 planted pine patches.  One patch is 15 rows with 75 trees in a row, and another is 25 rows with 75 in a row.  They are probably 60-70ft tall.  Most are 6"-10" wide with the perimeter trees being 12"+.  They have never been thinned and I'd like to take out every other tree in a row.  They really make me timid due to the swaying.  I'm getting a log winch in the near future, probably a fransgard v4000.  so I have the ability to use a cable to pull the tree after the v cut.  Just wandering if anyone has experience in this area and the safes approach.  I also plan to get a mill and mill these pines, but thinning is the primary purpose. 

madmari

If it makes you nervous, have a professional do the cutting. A professional makes it look easy, even if it isn't.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

davidn3

If I was going to do it myself, what would be the best way?

thecfarm

I sure don't know the best way,but I would wait for that winch. Make your cut and let it fall as much as it will,try not to hold too much on the stump,put a rolling hitch onto it,have at least a 50 foot pull and winch away. The rolling pull should turn it on the stump,do not try to pull it straight,won't work,need to roll it off the stump. You want your hook on the side of the tree. Some one might have a better,safer way too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

davidn3

Thanks.  Thats a good idea about the rolling pull.  Definitely wasn't going to try much without the winch.  As far as the cut goes.  just a v cut?  would you even put a back cut in it at all for the thinner 6-8" trees? 

4x4American

Do a tongue and groove cut, that way you can wedge the small diameter trees.  If you are inexperienced at falling trees, you might want to look into taking the Game of Logging Course.  Read some literature.  Don't just go out there and start cutting willy nilly, that's a good way to get yourself seriously hurt or killed. 


Here's a basic example of it in a youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLkgWFh9lDs


I use a 2' hatchet for pounding wedges, works good.  Don't be like this clown using a claw hammer...See how they had to fast forward the video cause it took so long to pop the groove out.  With an ax or hatchet you could do that much quicker.
Boy, back in my day..

4x4American

Where are you located btw?  Would be helpful to update your profile info.  Welcome to FF btw
Boy, back in my day..

davidn3

Nice video.  Thanks.  I'm in central NY. at the base of tug hill.  I have some experience cutting, but mostly for firewood.  with a mill coming, I plan to get into logging my land on the side.  The pine patches need thinned about 15 years ago, so that will be the first big project. 

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

davidn3


barbender

     I would second the comment on waiting on that winch before you get started.  I have fairly limited experience falling plantation pine, but the stuff I did cut gave me problems enough. It can be tough to get them to hit the ground. I work on a mechanized cut to length crew now, and even with a processor the tops get tangled in first entry pine. Of course with a processor you can push a button and feed the whole tree through the head and pull it to the ground.  Not an option when hand falling ;)  I have seen pictures of some of the techniques like 4x4 mentioned, that I've never gotten to try myself. The methods are out there, pine does get thinned by hand.  For instance, I bought a Husqvarna felling lever, it is a pry bar with a wedge shaped end, and a small cant hook on it. I tried it a few different ways, with my methods it was a small cant hook that didn't work very well. I've since seen some pictures of one being used that makes me want to go back and try it again. I just didn't know what I was doing. So, the info is out there I think. One other thing I would mention- it sounds like you may have enough timber where you may want to have a forester come and look it over with you. Taking every other tree in a stand that is past due for a thinning might result in too low of a basal area. It's not uncommon for Red pine plantations that are thinned to aggressively to get windthrown. Depending on markets, Red pine can provide a pretty good income so it is worth managing properly.
Too many irons in the fire

davidn3

Where do I find a forester?  And any ideas what they charge?  I agree on the advise.  I did think about not taking too much.  The outer rows are thicker and protecting the inner rows quite a bit. 

barbender

     In our area, there are private consulting foresters. I would think you could get a list of names through a local county extension office, or your local state and county forestry offices. Some of our local state DNR foresters also do private work to the side.  Also, some government agencies will assist with drawing up management plans.  You would have to look around to see what's available in your area. If you straight up hired a forester, I don't really know what they charge. Others on here can advise you better on that end. Sorry if I'm a little vague, I work around these folks a lot but I've never went through the process of contacting and/or hiring one for private work. 

     When we go into a pine thin with CTL equipment, we typically do what is known as a "5th row thin".  That means the processor cuts a row, and reaches over 2 rows on each side and thins. Then you move over 5 rows and repeat. So you end up with a row totally removed, then 4 rows of thinned wood, 1 removed, 4 thinned, all the way across. This is typical practice, as our equipment is wider than plantation rows are usually spaced, therefore  necessitating the removal of a row. If you have a tractor and skidding winch you may have enough room to fit between the rows so you don't have to remove one.
Too many irons in the fire

Gary_C

That is a big job you are contemplating to do by hand and I would recommend you let someone that has the equipment and knowledge to handle the work. If your counts are right, you can expect to take about a third of the trees which would be 1000 trees and every one of them is going to be a fight in those close quarters of a pine plantation. You will skin up much of what's left when you get the trees you cut hung up and have to drag them out with a winch over a bunch of stumps. You will diminish the value of the remaining stand.

I'm not saying you can't do the job, just that you be aware of the difficulty you will encounter. I do this type of work all the time but I have a harvester and it's still not easy work. Without the ability to man handle those trees and cut to length right in the woods, it will be a very tough job.

That tongue and groove method of cutting is dangerous, leaves you with little control of the tree thru much of the fall and could cause the tree to split and kill you. Plus it will not stop the tree from getting hung up in the tops of other trees, possibly getting wedged between trees and then will be a problem in getting the base loose from the stump.

See if you can get some advice from your state forester or DNR. Here in Minnesota the DNR is supposed to advise private woodland owners about their private woodlots but they have limited time to do so. But it doesn't hurt to ask.

You need to be prepared to answer a bunch of questions like tree species, row and tree spacing, tree height, diameter and acres.   
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

4x4American

Lol I took a GOL course and they taught the tounge and groove for small diameter trees..
They also teach that a humboldt notch is dangerous, but I think its safer and you can do more fancy pants techniques off of it.
Boy, back in my day..

sandsawmill14

david i did something similar on my farm about 10 years ago but mine wasnt planted and was very thick some stunps were 3-4 ft apart but they way i did it was throw all the tops one way and cut a hitch and then drag out. i was using a 85 hp tractor to drag with no winch so i would pile 6-8 on top of each other then drag them out and start cutting again :) mine was syp so there was no chance of splitting or barber chair but the tops  are very brittle and if the top hit another tree it was more likely to break out and come back at you than to hang up but im guessing you have either white or red pine and i dont know anything about them ??? and my trees were a little bigger being from about 10 up to 16" with 12" being a good average. i would cut and drag from 100 to 150 a day by my self but it was long days but there is not much to topping pine that is that thick so that help keep the numbers up. according to how they thin on the farm next to us about a third is what you will want to cut instead of half but again this is syp and i would walk through and mark the ones to be cut so i wasnt trying to figure it out while i was cutting its not necessary but its your stand so you want to do it right ;) if it was 20+" pine i would worry alot more about the danger but tress that small you can get some good experience and learn alot  once you get started you can fell the trees into the open and shouldnt have much trouble with hangups the one good thing about planted pine is they are usually standing straight and tall so if there is not much wind you can put them about anywhere you want to  ;D i always just notched about 1/3 for the face cut then cut if off from the back cut with little to no hinge on trees that small with trees that small it only takes seconds to cut one off with a good 60-70 cc saw wear your ppe and especially a good hardhat/helmet as falling limbs and tops will be the biggest hazard cutting pine and dont cut faster than you can think  :o ;D and if it was around here you would have to do it yourself because no logger would come to a job that small but the guys around here will get 15 or so loads a day thinning :o they clear cut a bout 50 acres that join us in jan and they averaged 20 loads a day and said that they normally would be getting 25-30 but that was all the trucks they could find :o the main thing is go slow and be careful till you get it figured out and be careful  :) like many others on here i have cut 1000s on 1000s of those little pines so it seems as nothing to me but it can be dangerous while learning but any logger with a saw had to learn somewhere and your job sounds as good as any to start ;) just be glad its not 30" hardwood to have to start on :D good luck and be careful :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Ljohnsaw

I know nothing about plantation trees but I'm wondering on the thinning advice (1/2 or 1/3 take out).  Nowhere do I see how close the trees are to each other in the rows or how close the rows are together.  Is there an industry standard for planting and how close they should be at certain diameters?  I get that you want them close when young to promote fast vertical growth and possible self-pruning.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

sandsawmill14

i was just going by how they are planted here most will thin twice they will take about a 1/3 cutting of pulp at 15-20 yrs , another 5-10 years depending on the wood they will take another roughly 1/3 as pine poles (light & telephone poles) then let the rest make saw logs but the way the pine market is they are clear cutting it all as pulp now  ??? i guess they will replant but i dont know the farm that joins us was planted in 91 or 92 and they are clear cutting it now :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Gary_C

The volume to be removed depends on measurement of basal area for the stand but for a uniform stand (plantation) usually taking a third out can get you down to the basal area target.

Row spacing and distance between trees is important in how you thin the stand by mechanical harvesting or hand cutting.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Clark

You've gotten some good advice. If you own 20 acres or more than I would suggest contacting a consulting forester. Less than that and it simply isn't worth their time.

With more timber to cut you could have a logger thin this pine when cutting the other stuff. I don't think this amount of pine would attract a logger, my estimate is that you have 3.5 acres of pine. The good news is that is very doable for a landowner. Listen to Gary when he talks about skinning up the remaining trees, plenty of effort has been put into thinning pine only to leave a bunch of skun up trees that slowly rot from the base.

Thinning pine like you have will require taking rows out. Every other tree isn't a practical method. However wide your tractor is, plus ~2' per side is how wide I would plan on making the skid trails. Hopefully that means just one row of trees but depending on the spacing it might take two rows. Once you start taking out a row of trees then felling becomes much easier. Remove the rows first and then any from the remaining rows. If it is really tight I would suggest taking out the rows, letting it grow for 5 years and then thin between the rows.

Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 21, 2016, 11:32:44 AM...Is there an industry standard for planting and how close they should be at certain diameters?...

Most plantations go in at ~800 TPA. More recently (last 20 years) there has been a definite improvement in trying to make sure there are 8' between rows which will allow machinery into the plantation by taking out one row. There is a good chance the OP has a plantation that is close to 800 TPA (although I have seen red pine planted on a 4'x4' grid!) which makes giving recommendations pretty easy.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Clark on March 21, 2016, 03:31:56 PM
You've gotten some good advice. If you own 20 acres or more than I would suggest contacting a consulting forester. Less than that and it simply isn't worth their time.

I have certainly gotten a lot of great information from this site.  The dense "natural" stand on my land has prompted a couple to mention getting a consulting forester.  I don't know the expense, I'm not selling trees (nor ever plan to) and I would like to think I know what needs to be done.  This is the first time I've seen someone put it in terms of acres.  I've only got 10 acres, so it kind of confirms my gut feeling.

Quote from: Clark on March 21, 2016, 03:31:56 PM
With more timber to cut you could have a logger thin this pine when cutting the other stuff. I don't think this amount of pine would attract a logger, my estimate is that you have 3.5 acres of pine. The good news is that is very doable for a landowner. Listen to Gary when he talks about skinning up the remaining trees, plenty of effort has been put into thinning pine only to leave a bunch of skun up trees that slowly rot from the base.

Thinning pine like you have will require taking rows out. Every other tree isn't a practical method. However wide your tractor is, plus ~2' per side is how wide I would plan on making the skid trails. Hopefully that means just one row of trees but depending on the spacing it might take two rows. Once you start taking out a row of trees then felling becomes much easier. Remove the rows first and then any from the remaining rows. If it is really tight I would suggest taking out the rows, letting it grow for 5 years and then thin between the rows.

Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 21, 2016, 11:32:44 AM...Is there an industry standard for planting and how close they should be at certain diameters?...

Most plantations go in at ~800 TPA. More recently (last 20 years) there has been a definite improvement in trying to make sure there are 8' between rows which will allow machinery into the plantation by taking out one row. There is a good chance the OP has a plantation that is close to 800 TPA (although I have seen red pine planted on a 4'x4' grid!) which makes giving recommendations pretty easy.

Clark

I checked the Forum Dictionary - I don't see anything in there about TPA.  Is it just as simple as Trees Per Acre? 

Also, my OCD keeps getting stuck on the thinning.  If you have trees planted on a fixed grid and you want to take out 1/3, do you not care if all the remaining trees are not evenly spaced?  That would drive me insane :o :D
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

davidn3

Lots of great advise thanks.  My rows are 7ft apart and trees within the row are about 10ft.  I have 52 acres total, but the red pine patches are maybe 10 of that. The patches are on separate sides of the property with hardwood and scotch pine in berween.  The first patch will be great practice.  Plenty of room for my tractor.   I see some good potential in the trees because the scattered scotch pine is 24"-30" wide and 80ft or so tall.  Wish all my red pine looked like that.  After looking at it today I think every third row, then thinning the low quality trees within the rows is easily doable.  There are plenty of 10" -12" trees with potential,  then followed by a 4" 60ft twig.  I really don't plan on bothering a logger.  I have plenty of fence rails and projects I could use the lumber for. 

barbender

  Although I work for a very large logging outfit, it's not unusual for us to cut a 100 cord sale, and even less sometimes when we get in an area where there are small private lots. Last summer, we cut one that was 3 landowners, I think there was 200 cords between all 3. 3 separate landings.  That is one of the benefits of the cut to length system, you only have 2 machines to bring in.  Up here, Red pine is a mainstay of our wood diet, especially in summer, so we take whatever we can get our hands on. Summer accessibility is always a plus.
Too many irons in the fire

Clark

Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 21, 2016, 04:15:05 PMI checked the Forum Dictionary - I don't see anything in there about TPA.  Is it just as simple as Trees Per Acre? 

Correct, TPA = trees per acre.

The OP says 7x10 which equals ~625/acre. Lower than I expected but quite frankly it's probably better. 800, while standard, is a bit higher than usually needed.

One thing about row thinning. When you decide to take out a row and stick to a formula (every third row) you effectively remove 1/3rd of the poor trees, 1/3rd of the average trees and 1/3rd of the best trees. If you can space that out to every fourth or fifth row the opportunity to take more of the poor quality trees increases dramatically. Taking every third row has been used for years and it works well but there is room for improvement.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

John Mc

Quote from: 4x4American on March 21, 2016, 07:34:43 AM
Lol I took a GOL course and they taught the tounge and groove for small diameter trees..
They also teach that a humboldt notch is dangerous, but I think its safer and you can do more fancy pants techniques off of it.

I also learned the "tongue and groove" at a GOL class, but it was not called tongue and groove and not done like the bozo in the video did it. The point is not to make the tongue and the groove. That is not what steers it, What steers it is the fact that the sides of the hinge are still intact, steering the tree on the way down. There is no need to offset the back cuts 3" from the bore cut (that was probably done under the mistaken impression that making the tongue and groove was the goal - it's not, it's a byproduct).  The whole reason for the bore cut is to make a place for the wedge to go, rather than bottoming out against the back of the hinge when wedging a small diameter tree. the back cuts can (and should) be made as close to the height of the wedge as possible (and use a plastic wedge - or something else that won't shred your chain if you mess up and hit it). You keep the back cuts closer to the wedge to keep them more closely aligned with the apex of the notch, helping to form the hinge correctly.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Gary_C

Quote from: Clark on March 21, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
One thing about row thinning. When you decide to take out a row and stick to a formula (every third row) you effectively remove 1/3rd of the poor trees, 1/3rd of the average trees and 1/3rd of the best trees. If you can space that out to every fourth or fifth row the opportunity to take more of the poor quality trees increases dramatically. Taking every third row has been used for years and it works well but there is room for improvement.

Clark

Except that some studies have shown that a top down thinning, ie. taking the best first, is not a bad thing in red pine. The worst place for a third row thinning is where you have a lot of disease and mortality and then you are stuck with taking out a row even when there are poor trees and gaps in adjacent rows. That's exactly the problem in the white pine stand I am presently thinning. Leaves a lot of gaps to be filled in with the ever-present boxelder and other undesirables.


Quote from: John Mc on March 21, 2016, 11:03:23 PM

I also learned the "tongue and groove" at a GOL class, but it was not called tongue and groove and not done like the bozo in the video did it. The point is not to make the tongue and the groove. That is not what steers it, What steers it is the fact that the sides of the hinge are still intact, steering the tree on the way down.

I agree. I've never taken a GOL class per se but what that "bozo" did was crazy dangerous. Once that wedge broke the tree loose it was a free fall. No hinge and the tree was free to go which direction it wanted. That 2 or 3 inch tongue and groove could not out muscle even a 20 foot tall tree.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

John Mc

Quote from: Gary_C on March 22, 2016, 01:11:19 AM
I agree. I've never taken a GOL class per se but what that "bozo" did was crazy dangerous. Once that wedge broke the tree loose it was a free fall. No hinge and the tree was free to go which direction it wanted. That 2 or 3 inch tongue and groove could not out muscle even a 20 foot tall tree.

He didn't show the front of the tree as he was making his back cuts, but done right, there should have been a bit of hinge left on either side of the initial bore cut. That is what is supposed to steer the tree on its way down. You are also supposed to do a second, partial bore offset just above or below the first, also coming in from the front and going just deep enough to pass through the hinge. This creates some extra space, keeping the wedge from lifting the whole tree and breaking the hinge.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

RHP Logging

I get roped into handcutting a couple loads of pine a year.  Usually first thinning often red. Its always part of a package deal with big hardwood timber on site.  My forester usually marks these stands in pockets, which seems to work out for handcutting and it looks better than just taking rows.  Just taking a row is easier, but like was said it removes poor and good trees. I always cut these stands on a windy day ( at least 15mph) because the top movement allows the trees to roll thru the others and hit the ground.  On a calm day it takes VERY little to hang them up.  Once you get a hole started just keep piling the trees in there.  Obviously you need to maintain a hinge on windy days and you need to be cool headed about it.  On small timber backcut first put yer wedge in then face. That tounge and groove cut is too easy to cut one side of the hinge off on small dbh.  By backcutting first you can maintain a full hinge and still wedge.  You can't let the movement of the tree freak you out.  Once its commited i snip off the rest of the hinge so they can roll. Watch out for them whipping when they hit other trees.  You are going to want to get the hell out of there asap. Thinning pine by hand sucks and there is little money in it when its said and done.
Buckin in the woods

davidn3

I did think about every 4th or 5th row.  But it looks tough to thin bad trees 2 rows over from the cut row.  Looks like it'd just get hung up on other trees.  The trees per acre info mentioned earlier.  Where is this info found?  Is there a calculator and a guideline to what I should be shooting for?

Gary_C

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 22, 2016, 07:23:59 AM
My forester usually marks these stands in pockets, which seems to work out for handcutting and it looks better than just taking rows.  Just taking a row is easier, but like was said it removes poor and good trees.

Taking out pockets does the same thing but on a more concentrated basis.

The primary objective to a pine thinning is to allow sunlight to reach every tree  for better growth. The ideal method on a first thinning would be to space out all the trees to about a ten to twelve foot spacing. The worst method would be to take out trees in isolated pockets and leave the rest of the stand crowded for sunlight. Function will always outweigh looks.

Taking out rows on a first thinning also gives you access to the stand for further work and is the best compromise between the ideal plan and others.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.


Gary_C

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

pine

Watched the video a couple of times and I am not sure how the "hinge" is working.  Seems to me that it breaks well before it should have and thus there is no controlling of the fall.  Is that the reason a couple have refereed to him as a bozo because he fails to have a proper hinge?

WildlandFirefighter912


John Mc

My apologies for calling him a bozo. This first time I watched, the playback stalled right after the tree hit the ground. I thought it was done, and never saw the stump or butt of the log. In looking at those, it appears he did have a hinge. Not sure how long into the fall it lasted, but it appears to have been there.

I've also never felled a palm tree, so who am I to judge?

Still don't see a good reason to be using a metal wedge - especially for a professional tree service (judging from the vehicle in the background). You'd think he would have appropriate equipment. I also see no reason for the large offset between the bore cut and the back cuts. That is asking for trouble: the hinge can be compromised, and the further away they get, the more it encourages barber chair (though I have no idea if palm trees are prone to that or not. The notch created by that offset is not really contributing to guiding the tree.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Gary_C

Quote from: WildlandFirefighter912 on March 22, 2016, 03:55:12 PM

Hey, it has been done..especially on them burning snags

Is that right after you say "Hold my beer and watch this?"

:D :D :D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Clark

Quote from: davidn3 on March 22, 2016, 07:53:55 AMI did think about every 4th or 5th row.  But it looks tough to thin bad trees 2 rows over from the cut row.  Looks like it'd just get hung up on other trees.  The trees per acre info mentioned earlier.  Where is this info found?  Is there a calculator and a guideline to what I should be shooting for?

An acre is 43,560 ft2. So multiply the average spacing between rows and between trees and divide 43,560 by that number. This will give you TPA.

When it comes to thinning red pine it's hard to beat taking 1/3 of the trees in that first thinning (if you hit just right I would recommend taking 40% of the trees but you are past that). Trying to work out TPA in thinned stands (or implementing such an idea) is difficult. Working on percents is much easier but those percents are based on removing a certain basal area. Your stand is likely close to 200 ft2 basal area, possibly more. Ideally you thin red pine to ~90 ft2 and let it grow to 140-150 ft2. So your stand is over-stocked by a long shot. That is why I would recommend doing two thinnings, spaced 5 years apart. That will get you close to where the stand should be after the first thinning.

The other thing to keep in mind when thinning spindly pine is that the edge trees are much more wind-firm than the interior trees. I tend to leave the north and west sides a little bit thicker because those trees will handle the wind better than interior trees. A sure way to see the whole plantation fall over is to take the outside two rows of trees on the N and W sides and in the next thunderstorm you will see many trees tipped over or leaning to the point of no return.

Gary - Yes top-down thinning can work with red pine but you end up with a stand that never increases its' average diameter. It sounds like the OP wants a stand of girthy red pine and who can blame him?

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

CCC4

That tongue and groove video has been around a while. Seems like one of the few. I would steer away from uing that cut for sure.

Easiest and best way to handle this is bring in someone with a cutting machine and do the job in a day or two. They can bunch all timber in the rows to eliminate scarring of the remaining timber. Hand falling rowed pine can make a veteran faller wanna punch himself in the face...all day long. It sucks bad! I will usually just make a call to my boss and tell him to bring in the Hydro Ax before I go to the house. It's not so much getting the timber down...it's the removal...ya just can't set everything up and be even near as productive as a cutting machine.

If you were cutting it all...heck yeh, start at the edge and cut like Hell.

Another thing is the danger of thinning pine. There is so much deflection from other trees that you really don't know what to expect next. If you get tired, it could cost you at the least broke legs. I have had them swing through the air face high before...not a pretty site!

Just hire someone to come in and cut it for you. Sell what you can't use, mill the rest.

47sawdust

I think CC4 is right on the money.A mechanized feller will make short work of the job.The power company just hired one to do a clear cut of a red pine plantation that was continually taking out the power lines.Job was all done in 6 hours.
My experience has not been good sawing red pine plantation stock.Seemed to be a lot of stress that did not reveal it self until the drying process.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

barbender

     Plantation red can disappoint when sawn. It does have a tendency to twist in warp when drying.
Too many irons in the fire

davidn3

Quote from: 47sawdust on March 22, 2016, 06:31:11 PM
I think CC4 is right on the money.A mechanized feller will make short work of the job.

The best easiest way to do anything is hire someone to do it.  Not trying to make a living off of the trees.  Maybe a good retirement in 30 years.  So if I pay someone every time want a tree taken down, then I'd be in a lot of dept by the time I retire.  Have to learn sometime.  I have plenty of equipment to get the job done, so I might as well save the money. 

RHP Logging

Quote from: Gary_C on March 22, 2016, 12:07:16 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 22, 2016, 07:23:59 AM
My forester usually marks these stands in pockets, which seems to work out for handcutting and it looks better than just taking rows.  Just taking a row is easier, but like was said it removes poor and good trees.

Taking out pockets does the same thing but on a more concentrated basis.

The primary objective to a pine thinning is to allow sunlight to reach every tree  for better growth. The ideal method on a first thinning would be to space out all the trees to about a ten to twelve foot spacing. The worst method would be to take out trees in isolated pockets and leave the rest of the stand crowded for sunlight. Function will always outweigh looks.

Taking out rows on a first thinning also gives you access to the stand for further work and is the best compromise between the ideal plan and others.


I guess i shouldn't have called them pockets.  Daylight is made through out the stand just in some places more than others and i have to cut in to get the forwarder in there.  Here pine is not native so its usually three cuts and all but a few exceptional specimans are gone.  We want the hardwoods back.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: davidn3 on March 22, 2016, 06:50:49 PM
Quote from: 47sawdust on March 22, 2016, 06:31:11 PM
I think CC4 is right on the money.A mechanized feller will make short work of the job.

The best easiest way to do anything is hire someone to do it.  Not trying to make a living off of the trees.  Maybe a good retirement in 30 years.  So if I pay someone every time want a tree taken down, then I'd be in a lot of dept by the time I retire.  Have to learn sometime.  I have plenty of equipment to get the job done, so I might as well save the money.

I hope you plan a short retirement.  Red pine is currently getting 115/cord here.   Minus 30-40 for trucking.  If you personally cut it you may net 50-60/cord.  Pine  stumpage here is usually 5-10 bucks per cord.  Thats if someone else cuts it and they pay you. Ive heard of higher where pulp is the game, but not in sawtimber county.  Red pine sawlogs don't pay worth a dam either.  Clearcut now and plant hardwoods.  Maybe your grandkids can have that nice retirement then.
Buckin in the woods

davidn3

No trucking involved.  Will be milled and sold right on the property.   Already have plenty of hardwood.  Nice to keep the veriety. 

sandsawmill14

david it will be hard but that IMO it is alot safer to learn on 10-12" stumps than on the 20"+ but when it starts over run like it was a bear as you never know what it is gonna do when it starts crashing into other tree tops and if it hangs pull it down instead of trying to knock it down with another tree or cutting it down and wear the ppe especially the hard hat even when dragging the logs out :) even trees that small will break a leg or whatever else they get on so just go slow and take your time till you get a feel for it and be safe :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

teakwood

Here is a good Technic to cut small diameter trees. I use it a lot in my teak plantations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1r3qJK4Rrw
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

John Mc

Nice video, Teakwood.

I understand the cuts he made onthe sides, before cutting the notch.  What were the little nips he took at 0:40 and 0:44, right after cutting the notch?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

teakwood

This nips are to mark the hinge 2 or 3" wide so you make the back cut and make it until the mark (those little nips). But thats actually school technic. Most professional cutters dont do that because its a waste of time.
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

John Mc

Quote from: teakwood on March 23, 2016, 09:10:54 AM
This nips are to mark the hinge 2 or 3" wide so you make the back cut and make it until the mark (those little nips). But thats actually school technic. Most professional cutters dont do that because its a waste of time.

Got it. I've not seen anyone around here do that (professional or landowner). I guess we all figure if we could eyeball the right distance to make the nips, we could eyeball it when making the back cut as well.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ianab

The offset back cut does make sense though. Gives you some place to set your wedge or felling lever in a small tree that might be a problem wedging in a regular back cut.

I'd do the guide nicks the first few times. But then again sometime I will scratch out my cutting plan in the bark before I start, especially large trees on uneven ground. Just easier to get things lined up before you are leaning over a saw. Once you have it right you should be able to eyeball it.

Problem you are most likely to have with an overcrowded pine plantation is the tops being intertwined. You can't get the tree over enough for gravity to take over and pull the skinny stick free. In that case a cable and winch is the way to go, but of course that makes the slower.

Locally plantation pine is thinned early, only once, and generally just left to rot in place.  Because there is no harvest you don't have to clear rows for machine access, so the spacing can be left more "random". Poor quality trees are the first to go, then any more that need to come down to give a sensible final spacing. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

John Mc

Quote from: Ianab on March 23, 2016, 03:19:41 PM
The offset back cut does make sense though. Gives you some place to set your wedge or felling lever in a small tree that might be a problem wedging in a regular back cut.

Some offset certainly makes sense in a case like this. The cuts certainly don;t need to meet, you just need to make sure you have severed all the fibers (other than the hinge, of course).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

RHP Logging

Quote from: davidn3 on March 23, 2016, 07:42:07 AM
No trucking involved.  Will be milled and sold right on the property.   Already have plenty of hardwood.  Nice to keep the veriety.

Unless you have a river to float the logs to a mill there will be trucking.  Paid on the front or back end its an expense.  Also most pulp mills i know do not haul to themselves.  You send them the wood and finding a trucker can be a real problem.  You need to cut at mill specs too.  I understand that you want to mill the bigger logs which is great, but you need to market that too. Not trying to be a jerk here, just giving you a heads up with whats going to go on.  The bottom line of what i'm saying is there is very little money at the end of the day when handcutting pine.  The last stand i cut was a second thinning.  Trees averaged 6-8" dbh.  It took me 12 hours to cut and land 16 cords. I cut them and picked up the logs over the course of two days.  The first day was windy and i got all of them to hit the ground.  The next day was calm and i was knocking one out with the others the entire time.  Out of 100 trees i had to pull down 8-10.  That all costs time which comes off the bottom line.  I like pine trees to tell you the truth.  I spend 99 percent of my time cutting hardwood.  There just isn't money there for a handcutter.
Buckin in the woods

Puffergas

I have a small poor pine stand that was planted but never thinned. Felling is rather easy and about 20% of the time I use a rope winch to pull them down. Limbing is the real pain.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

MattR

A SLIGHT steady breeze in the SAME direction will make it a world easier. Not big winds. Slight. After you get a couple down, you'll move along comfortably fast, and safe. Then they will all be laying the same direction as well, making pulling them out a much more tidy process.

Of course wear safety gear and have wedges with you. Always have a saw wrench also. That way if you do get pinched, you can remove the saw from the bar to protect it and come back later for the bar.  99% of the time nature blew the tree down and your bar is fine.

If winds change, your done for the day. It sounds like this will be a job you'll just poke at anyway. Then go to limbing and pulling up what you cut. You'll drop more than you think, and where you want them. I have cut a lot of small pine this way. Big ones too.
Matt

Tarm

I hand cut the first thinning for a small white pine plantation last winter. Unless you want to pull EVERY SINGLE TREE DOWN you need to fell entire rows. There is simply no other way. Every third row would work out fine. Fell, limb,top and drag out with your winch. Have fun, keep safe.

Rick Alger

With my horses I've done work like this also, and I agree taking whole rows is the most efficient.

If you really want to, you can take some off each side by leaning them against leave trees  across the opened row and then pulling the severed butt into the opened row with a snatch block. You can also change rows occasionally, especially if your rows pass through open spots.

But as has been said, the main goal in a thinning is usually improving basal area, not single tree harvest.

RHP Logging

Quote from: Tarm on March 30, 2016, 07:23:56 AM
I hand cut the first thinning for a small white pine plantation last winter. Unless you want to pull EVERY SINGLE TREE DOWN you need to fell entire rows. There is simply no other way. Every third row would work out fine. Fell, limb,top and drag out with your winch. Have fun, keep safe.

*DanG right!  Thats the best way.
Buckin in the woods

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