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Hydrostatic or gear transmission in tractor

Started by Timberlake16, March 20, 2016, 04:13:10 PM

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Timberlake16

So I bought a bandmill and I am really enjoying it...mostly as a hobbyist and to produce lumber for various projects.  Now wanting to buy a tractor to use to skid and load logs.  Skidsteers are great for loading but I decided on something more versatile. 

The question I have is which transmission is best (and why).  I borrowed a friend's tractor the last time...geared transmission.  We skidded about 50 logs and then loaded a couple on the trailer.  But I have not tried the HST...although I love it on my riding mower.  Would like to hear some opinions out there...as well as other options I should consider.  The tractor I am looking at is either a John Deere 4044R (43 hp, geared) or a John Deere 4052M (52 hp, eHydro transmission)

https://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/tractors/compact_utility_tractors/4000_series/4000_series.page?


Ljohnsaw

I had an old (1960?) Case 210B orchard tractor on my ranch.  4 speed stick with hi/lo range and shuttle for reverse (50% faster in reverse) and I loved it.  Nice and quiet.  Used a friends Kubota (smaller one) with a hyrdostatic trans.  Jerky and VERY loud (whinny).  Since then, I noticed that most hydros are noisy (hi rpm ALL the time and whinny pumps).  Personally, I wouldn't get a hydro for that reason.  You had to wear hearing protection.  I like to be able to hear what's going on around me.

However, I could see that with no gears, there would be less moving and wearing parts...
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

thecfarm

I have 2 tractors,both NH,30hp HST,40hp gear. I have not noticed the noise factor. I perfer a gear,less to go wrong,sounds good.  ;D  I really don't think it matters with a bigger tractor that is not used for mowing or blowing snow,as I do with the 30hp. Wife mows,I blow snow. The 40 hp is the worker here. If I wanted a HST,I would have 2 tractors with a HST.
But saying that,you bunch a hole in that filter and you are done,right there and moving no wheres. Take a look where that filter is. That might wake you up on a HST. Yes,they make a guard to cover it,but...............   ;)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

HiTech

I much prefer gear transmissions. If you are just going to putt around a home or mow grass maybe a hydro would be ok. I have seen too many of them apart to replace seals and what not.

samandothers

I have an HST that I really like.  I don't do hard pulling or ground engagement work.  For activities that require back and forth work or quick movement back and forth HST is really good.  I would get one again.  Really like using HST on bush hogging backing in and out of trees and edge of fields.  It is great moving back and forth to center a log over the mill bed before lowering.

Dave Shepard

I have a Kubota L48. It's hydro, and I use it like a bulldozer. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

ScottAR

You might also consider a reverser style transmission.  Typically they have the power of the gear trans and the convenience of the hydro.  I have a straight gear trans tractor and a backhoe with the reverser.  For loader work I much prefer the reverser tractor. 
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

chevytaHOE5674

Hydro is really nice for loader work.... When they work. :D

Having said that I have a IH backhoe sitting on the farm with a hydro trans that has a problem with the charge pump I think. From my limited knowledge and what I have gathered from the service manual and parts department at the dealer it will be cheaper to buy another used backhoe that it will be to split and fix this one.

Can rebuild a lot of gear transmissions, power reversers, and clutches for what it costs to dive into one hydro.

g_man

I like a geared tractor in the woods. I do a lot in snow and packed snow. Pulling a heavy hitch lightens the front end and the hitch acts like a rudder. Both these make it harder to turn especially if you have to turn up hill. So the use of steering brakes and the dif-lock are constant. Same for mud or other snotty going or just traveling on uneven ground were one rear tire startd to float. If one rear wheel loses traction just step on the brake for that side and get the power to the other tire. On most HST tractors I have seen (all CUTS) it is very difficult to use the steering brakes because your foot is on the go pedal. With the geared tractor you select your gear, set your hand throttle for the speed/rpms you want to make the pull with and your right foot is free to operate the dif-lock or steering brakes. Your left foot has the clutch. And you just go at a steady speed on the flat or uphill. There is no go pedal to worry about.
I load logs too. The geared tractor is fine but the HST would be easier for that.

gg

North River Energy

I borrowed this Deere from a neighbor.
Pretty sure it's a 5 series with the PowReverser, but don't recall the horsepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZjX7L7fYgU

It was nice enough, and did the job, but I didn't care for the clutch/brake/throttle layout. (I don't think it had a brake actuated de-clutch?)
The cable-drive loader controls felt rubbery, the valve body for the loader was desperately in need of guarding, and it was difficult to see the working edge of the bucket.
The transmission and gear layout was versatile and it was easy to find a gear to match the work.
The throttle control was very sensitive, to the extent that I removed my boot and used my toes on the pedal to avoid surging while roading.

It's very easy to confuse the reverser lever for a turn signal stalk, based on dimension and location.

Also spent a few hours mowing, and for that it was a treat.
Another neighbor with a similar tractor has commented that it has the horsepower but lacks sufficient weight for heavy field work. The tires on the borrowed tractor were not loaded, and it would not dent the firewood pile while in 2wd.

Plankton

Around the mill yard HS would be nice.

My tractors are geared and old, wouldn't have it any other way for farming at least. Couldn't imagine having to press the throttle all day cutting hay etc. So much easier to just let the clutch out and drive. I would imagine it's similar pulling logs, you can use the wheel brakes better and there just easier to drive Imo.

Also Hydrostatic robs some engine power so if your aiming for a smaller tractor I would get geared to have as much power to pull logs as possible.

I drove a 60hp geared kubota with the forward reverse lever at my old job (construction and sawmilling) that's the best of both worlds I think, quick manuvering back and forth just as fast as HS and you don't have to mess with a foot pedal to drive far distances.

Dave Shepard

Reversers are no match for hydro in loader work. They do have downsides, like a little less, but not too much less, hp at the wheels. With my hydro, the engine is at full throttle, and the hydraulics for the loader are at full speed and when you are moving around you can select an infinite speed, and always just the right amount of force going into a pile. I wouldn't want a compact hydro for farming, but for loader work they are awesome.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

GDinMaine

Hydro is the best if you do a lot of slight, slow back and forth movements. Loader work is far easier such as what you might do around a mill.
The transmission acts "jerky" if the wrong range (Hi / Med / Low) is used for a given task. Hi range is for "long distance" travel only. Medium for mowing and that kind of none-ground-engagement tasks. Low is for tilling, loader work, plowing and blowing snow.
I have been mowing, tilling, plowing and blowing snow and last but not least yarding logs with my tractor.
Never a hiccup  in 900+- hours of operation.
In my opinion, the idea, that hydro is less reliable than gear transmission seems to be based on inexperience with those machines.
It's the going that counts not the distance!

WM LT-40HD-D42

Timberlake16

Thanks guys for all the input...good stuff. 

roger 4400

I have a 43 hp Massey ferguson (1643) since 2010, with HST, I love it. On Massey, brake are  on the left side so you can drive with the brakes, forward and reverse  pedalls are on the  right side, It is very precise if you have to lift a log and put it on the mill ,it will crawl, same thing if you use your loader , going front or reverse in less than a second, no clutch to press and you do not have to choose a speed, you only choose a range of infinite speeds.  I red somewhere that HST are good for at least 8,000 hours. Before I had a gear tractor, I would never go back to gear. In the wood it will be very precise, on mine if you push the pedal, it will automatically give more throttle, like a car so you go faster. Also with a HSt you almost never use your brakes, you let the pedal go, it will stop. Like I told you before I would not go back to gear, but it is your choice now. Good Thinking. Roger
Baker 18hd sawmill, massey Ferguson 1643, Farmi winch, mini forwarder, Honda foreman 400, f-250, many wood working tools, 200 acres wooden lots,6 kids and a lovely and a comprehensive wife...and now a Metavic 1150 m14 log loader so my tractor is a forwarder now

Dave Shepard

I only use my brakes for parking. The little tab to separate the pedals was stuck together with paint when I got the tractor, and have between ever since. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

bill m

I have had both ( New Hollands ) and I like the hydrostatic best. Never ran out of power pulling logs and for backing around trees in the woods or loader work they can't be beat. Dave is right, I only used the brakes when I parked it. For working in close quarters to the mill I would think the hydrostatic would be best, IMHO.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

g_man

Quote from: bill m on March 21, 2016, 10:11:33 PM
I have had both ( New Hollands ) and I like the hydrostatic best. Never ran out of power pulling logs and for backing around trees in the woods or loader work they can't be beat. Dave is right, I only used the brakes when I parked it. For working in close quarters to the mill I would think the hydrostatic would be best, IMHO.

That surprises me because I know you do a lot in the winter. There is absolutely no way I could manage in the snow w/o steering brakes. My tractor is small (30 hp and 5000 lbs)  but the wood I take out is small also. My wood lot is hilly and rough but not dangerous. With all the fluffy snow covered ice this winter the steering breaks were especially necessary for me. 

gg

dsgsr

Over the past 18-yrs. I've had 5 tractors. 4 were Hst. and I never had any problems with them and I did just about everything you can do with tractors except pilling a multi bottom plow. The last John Deere hst I sold had approx. 6400 hrs. on it that I put on from New and never a problem with the Hydro. I have since bought a John Deere 5085M (gear) tractor (only choice, it doesn't come in a Hydro) because I needed a larger Tractor for Logging. I would rather have Hydro, much more precise in operation. If I have to do and exacting work I use the Kubota M59 which is Hydro. 

David
Northlander band mill
Kubota M59 TLB
Takeuchi TB175 Excavator
'08 Ford 550 dump
'87 International Dump
2015 Miller 325 Trailblazer Welder/Gen

RCBS

For me, it's HST all the way.  Not sure if all of em have this option, but mine has a lever on the left side to set the transmission at a constant speed like a rheostat.  I have learned to use this lever when brake steering due to a load floating the front wheels.  I ask way too much of my little tractor, but it just hums along.  The HST is a godsend on my hilly ground.  No messing with neutral and parking brake when hopping on & off hooking up chains, etc.  Mine has very little whine unless in high range going down the road.  My buddy's does have a bit of whine to it.  Same approximate size tractors, but about $3k difference in pricing (L series vs Utility).
Echo CS-3400, 550xp, Jonsered 2166, L3130 Kubota, '78 JD 300 backhoe, Kubota RTV900, JD2305, lots of sharp stuff and several firearms

caveman

I don't know if this is the best thread to post this in but we have to get to work soon.  
Hydrostatic v geared transmission in a tractor.  Last week, I had the opportunity to operate the second hydrostatic tractor in my life.  It was by chance.  

We have several CDE's (career development events) in FFA for the students.  Last Wednesday afternoon the county land judging event was scheduled at 3pm.  The NRCS employees are evidently staying home and saving lives or for some other reason did not bother to help set up the land judging contest this year for our county.  Our county ag supervisor call on my former co-teacher to come out and assess the pits that were dug.  When she and I worked together, I usually used the transit and set up the slopes that accompanied each pit (for our practices).  We met at the contest site at 11 a.m.  I had intended to measure four slopes, go back to school, which is on the other side of town, and bring my students back in time to compete at 3 p.m.

When we arrived, pits were already dug by a fine young tractor mechanic.  He was instructed to dig four pits.  At this site, there are some really diverse soils (entasols, spodosols, ultisols, alfasols, and probably a histosol).  Anyway, he dug all four of the pits really close together on the highest ground on the 30 acre site in close proximity to each other.  There was no diversity.  

Here comes the tractor part.  The middle school, where the contest was held had a 30 or so hp hydrostatic Kubota tractor.  I borrowed it to dig a couple of more pits.  Normally, we dig them about 50 inches deep so that the students can determine erosion of top soil, seasonal high water table, most restrictive layer for permeability, etc.  The first thing I noticed was that the forward and reverse is operated with the right foot.  I'm used to working tractor brakes with my right foot.  The brakes are where the clutch pedal is supposed to be.  This tractor has much smaller front tires and much weaker hydraulics than the 70 hp tractors we have a school and home.  I was glad to have it instead of having to hand dig the pits but it was a challenge for me to get them dug.  I was digging in an area that I knew had a spodic layer.  I got the little tractor temporarily stuck.  After 15-20 minutes of rolling the bucket, a little shovel work, and some enthusiastic throttle and forward/reverse pedal manipulation I was able to get it out.  The process was repeated when I dug the alfasol pit.

It seemed like a nice little tractor but for me, I'll stick to tractors with gears, clutch and the controls in the traditional locations.
Caveman

hacknchop

30 hp ain't much when it comes to digging, we used a little ford swinger articulated loader at a flooring mill I ran the sawmill for, going from a Cat 950 to that little swinger was tough but I got used to it.
Often wrong never indoubt

moodnacreek

Knew a guy who bought a tractor with hydro, a-c and a 'glass' cab. What a disaster.  With 3 'radiators' , [condenser, oil cooler and radiator] that would get dirty and over heat everything and no a-c in the sun mowing in summer in the glass bubble. Used a lot of fuel also.  Give me gear drive, reverser and an open canopy.

azmtnman

My Kubota L3750DT is what they call Hydro Shuttle. I think John Deere calls it Shuttle Shift. I think it's the best of both worlds. It has a clutch and gears but has a lever on the left side of the steering column that quickly and easily moves from forward to reverse.
 I have used the smaller Kubotas like Caveman is talking about. You can learn to like it really quick if you're doing something like plowing snow but I don't like them for constant speed tasks like mowing or plowing. 
1983 LT 30, 1990 Kubota L3750DT, 2006 Polaris 500 EFI, '03 Dodge D2500 Cummins powered 4X4 long-bed crew cab, 1961 Ford backhoe, Stihl MS250, MS311 and MS661--I cut trees for my boss who was a Jewish carpenter!

TroyC

Using a loader and for precision work loading the logs on the mill, I prefer the hydrostat. One foot quickly goes from forward to reverse and you can creep really easy. Both hands free, no shifting. For plowing and food plot work I use the geared Ford.

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