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big white oak and hickory leaners on a side hill

Started by Mountaynman, March 15, 2016, 07:24:14 PM

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Mountaynman

400-500 ft to a tree some with heavy leans on sidehill deeper face cut is what I was thinking just wanted some opinions before I split a bunch of them tryin different approaches always bore cut  but have some set on the saw by the hinge then have to grab another saw and risk some fiberpull or stump pull any opinions helpful thanks guys
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

sandsawmill14

if its got much lean you will never catch up with the fall with just a deep notch on a tree that size  :) the only way i know how to cut on like that is bore in from the notch and leave the sapwood for the hinge and the tree will be standing on 3 "legs" when you turn it loose one on each side of the face cut and the holding wood on the back. that is the only way i know how to stop the heart pull but we have cut a few 40+" maple and red oaks on my place like that and it worked well :)  but i am no professional feller and im sure someone smarter than me will be along shortly ;D :D :D :D
main thing is be careful those are dangerous the only thing worse imo is a deep creek bank :o
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Firewoodjoe

Deeper face cut won't help. Wedges bore and proper hinge. If it's to much of a strain the power help would need to be used. A lot of times a tree will go three ways. So if u can go side ways to compensate. Be safe.

sandsawmill14

i have the same problem with cutting to much and setting it down on the saw :-[ the way i solved that is i dont go to the woods without 2 saws :) good thing is unless you misjudged something a bore cut will just turn over when you turn it loose instead of rolling off the stump or something so it easy to get the saws out of the way ;D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Ed_K

 Along with boring the center make sure you have at least a 70 deg notch too. 90s better.
Ed K

Mountaynman

almost always bore in from the front on trees this big cut with a 24" bar too trim the sides of the hinge just these trees are really tall 90' on a steep side hill below a rock bluff most will be skidded from the top straight out to a cornfield bunch pile trying to save as many 12" maples as we can nice lookin wood never been cut since the cows went away hundred years ago fast growin should be a bunch of veneer just lookin for some more tips thanks guys
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

sandsawmill14

 should have said that i cut a block out for the notch (i think the 90* ed is talking about) but anyway it is 2 cross cuts into the tree 6-8 inches apart and the bore in at 90* to connect the 3 cuts and remove the block. this keeps notch from closing and making tree try to lift off stump breaking hinge before you want it to :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Mountaynman

always use a standard 90degree notch cut usually no more than the bar width deep especially on steep ground but these trees are really big and heavy luckly no leaves yet while tryin to save the regen gonna be fun sometimes we have used that deeper face on the really big timber makes it easier to wedge over not moving as much of the tree all gets clipped off at the mill anyways with the big butt swell these trees up here have
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

sandsawmill14

best advice i can give you is be careful and good luck :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Mountaynman

oh I'm sure ill split one or have one roll on the stump and split when it lands wrong the leaders are big and long on these trees not much choice on some as to where they are going even with wedges be safe yourself will try and put some pics up when we get rollin if it ever stops raining here on a sand flat by the river so one day of sunshine and good to go frost left last week never even made a mark unloading the buggy drivin across the guys lawn
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

sandsawmill14

sound like a good job site other than the steep part  :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

CCC4

I cut steep ground nearly 7 days a week and always cut White Oak, Red Oak, Hickory etc. There are 3 ways to cut it to eliminate problems and fiber pull...I will tell you 2 of them.

Cut your kerf back to over 60%, throw a Humbolt that meets your corners then throw in a conventional snipe and bore the heart out from the face.

Cut your kerf back 60%, throw a conventional face purposely not meeting your corners (meaning, cut it short, just enough for a little direction)...reason for this is the face will slowly close at the unmet corners and slow down your release while you are making your backcut. Be sure to gut your heart from the face on this cut also.

Not to be a jerk...but please don't use wedges on head leaning timber on a slope...it doesn't need any extra push to get it to leave off the stump...the right timber will take your head off. Examples... Ash, White Oak, Water Oak, Hickory etc. They will blow so dang fast you won't even know what happened.

Be safe

treeslayer2003

block face at 50%, gut the heart, back up quickly.

timberlinetree

Sharp,big,fast cutting saw and as described proper notch configuration. Work safe!
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

coxy

if your afraid of splitting them put a chain or cable around the butt about 12-14in up from your cut

CCC4


John Mc

I have used wedge occasionally on a heavy side leaner, not to tip the tree over, but to keep it from crushing the hinge.  I cut my notch, bore cut behind and parallel to the notch to set the hinge, then start cutting out toward the back. While there is still plenty of wood left holding up the tree, I lightly tap a wedge in just behind the hinge on the side it's leaning toward. This is just to give the hinge a little support and keep the tree from settling down and pinching a saw or partially crushing the hinge. (Leaving the hinge a good bit thicker might accomplish the same thing as far as supporting the tree, but that increases the chance of the trunk splitting or getting fiber pull or even a barber chair.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

thecfarm

I have only cut a few trees on steep ground. My Father called it a horseback,just about take a bowl and place it on the ground. Might of covered 500 feet round. We was cutting white pine. My Father knew what was going to happen,not me. That tree left the stump and all I heard was a whooshing noise as it flew through the air. Than it hit the ground. WOW!!! What a sight and sound.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Mountaynman

ccc4 thanks for the info not sure what u mean by 60% kerf just different lingo I guess got 38 cut tday taller than my estimate most are 50-55 to crotch with two or three 20 ft sticks of firewood and 30-40 ft of top glad my dozer man had two saws tday too had three pinched in one tree only had one blow on the stump couple spin and split but most logs are intact quite a wrkout after not cutting for two wks runnin a souped up 372xp 8 tooth with 24" 73lgx84 flat filed went gd not too the rough part yet though
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Plankton

Out of curiosity what techniques were you using on the stump mostly?

I don't cut a lot of hardwood but on heavy leaners I put steep and deep faces in gut the heart and either coos bay or bore cut depending on the tree.

Mountaynman

thin face cut clip the edge of the hinge on the side with the lean bore in behind hinge from that side go back out front take the heart out go around other side clip hinge finish boring to the holding wood light wedge tap on lean side trip off the holding wood back up and watch the show dense stand lots of top movement of adjacent trees mostly little sticks flyin everywhere they all hit the ground had to split most trees in half to bunch out with dozer only skiddin 100 yards
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

CCC4

I wish I was closer. I may not use the politically correct falling methods, but in this line of work you learn from mistakes. Unfortunately some peoples luck runs short. Three things happen in a falling career...you get fired for blowing up timber, you get killed or you learn and get good at it.

Wish I could be more help to ya, I hate to hear about someone struggling.

Mountaynman

not really struggling bub just always lookin for ideas to get better I am guilty of not always bein politically correct either backcut sometimes especially in maple get tired of blowin tips all the time round here in frozen maple u can blow a tip a day bore cutting every tree just hickory is hard enough to cut anyways usually only leave a half inch hinge and chase that when there isn't any danger of stump roll I agree with you bub you either get gd at it are dead or in another line of work but love cutting that big timber it really adds up fast
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

RHP Logging

Red oak 40" across the hinge.  you can see the sweep in the stem.  She leaned pretty hard downhill.  Humboldt, Gut the face.  Back bar near side back to front.  Walk to other side. back bar from hinge to middle to back until she went.  I almost never bore anymore.  Modified Coos Bay back cuts are awesome when you get the hang of them.  Saves a lot of time, pinching, and general screwing around.  That and its fun to pull stumps!




There was a tiny bit of pull. 




Cleaned up. Works for white oak, hickory, ash, whatever. 






Buckin in the woods

CCC4

LOL! I'd know that snipe anywhere!! Glad to see ya! I'm calling you today...jus giving you the heads up mang. Stay safe!

CCC4

An example of the cut I was describing using a Humbolt with a conventional snipe and the heart gutted from the face on a uphill leaner red Oak. This cut works well for uphill or downhill falling of heavy lean timber.



  

  

  

 

And right when I said don't use wedge on timber on a slope...this happens! LOL! The tree had several sweeps and body mass lean, I picked the wrong one and had to back up with wedges...yeh, I'll eat crow on this one! LOL!



  

 

John Mc

I'm having a terminology miss here. "Snipe" is not a term I've heard used around here. Is that what folks around here refer to as the notch?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

CCC4

No Sir, the face is a Humbolt, the added non meeting add on I put in the log is the snipe. Look at Bitzer's profile pic, his snipe is the additional add on he put in his stump.

John Mc

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Firewoodjoe

That is a much deeper face cut then I do. I feel you want to be in the edge wood. Sap or summer wood. Not in the "dead" heart wood. It's not a strong hinge and that is your material vs the slab or waste wood where your hinge should be. And on a large tree you need like a 1"-2"  hinge. That hinge should hold till the tree is nearly horizontal. And you should be able to walk back at a 45 degree angle from the fall direction and not have to continue to cut your hinge. My 2 cents.

RHP Logging

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 18, 2016, 09:46:24 PM
That is a much deeper face cut then I do. I feel you want to be in the edge wood. Sap or summer wood. Not in the "dead" heart wood. It's not a strong hinge and that is your material vs the slab or waste wood where your hinge should be. And on a large tree you need like a 1"-2"  hinge. That hinge should hold till the tree is nearly horizontal. And you should be able to walk back at a 45 degree angle from the fall direction and not have to continue to cut your hinge. My 2 cents.

  There are many different reasons for different depths, widths, types of face cuts.  Most have to do with how to save out the wood or control the tree.  With hard leaning timber its really only going one way.  Strength of the hinge is not really a factor.  Getting the compression wood cut up before the tension wood is what You're after.  The face can do as much to control a tree as the hinge wood.  Getting the hinge to break early or hang on til the tree is on the ground are for different scenarios with different face styles.  The scratch a face in the sapwood or 30 percent depth of face or maintaining a certain percentage of hingewood need not apply.  Intentionally using dutchmans, exposing fibers of your hinge, snipes, etc are all ways to swing, control, and save out your wood efficiently and safely. 
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: John Mc on March 18, 2016, 08:45:31 PM
OK. So what is a snipe for?

Many different things.  If you look at the pic in my avatar i have a narrow humboldt face with a snipe on the stump.  The tree was leaning downhill and i needed the stem free of the stump quickly and the butt on the ground asap in order to save out my last log of the tree. Narrow face closes breaking the hinge, snipe lets butt slip to the ground quickly.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: CCC4 on March 18, 2016, 05:33:04 PM
No Sir, the face is a Humbolt, the added non meeting add on I put in the log is the snipe. Look at Bitzer's profile pic, his snipe is the additional add on he put in his stump.

So where was the phone call?!  I didn't have time to bs today anyway.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 12:11:18 AM
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 18, 2016, 09:46:24 PM
That is a much deeper face cut then I do. I feel you want to be in the edge wood. Sap or summer wood. Not in the "dead" heart wood. It's not a strong hinge and that is your material vs the slab or waste wood where your hinge should be. And on a large tree you need like a 1"-2"  hinge. That hinge should hold till the tree is nearly horizontal. And you should be able to walk back at a 45 degree angle from the fall direction and not have to continue to cut your hinge. My 2 cents.

  There are many different reasons for different depths, widths, types of face cuts.  Most have to do with how to save out the wood or control the tree.  With hard leaning timber its really only going one way.  Strength of the hinge is not really a factor.  Getting the compression wood cut up before the tension wood is what You're after.  The face can do as much to control a tree as the hinge wood.  Getting the hinge to break early or hang on til the tree is on the ground are for different scenarios with different face styles.  The scratch a face in the sapwood or 30 percent depth of face or maintaining a certain percentage of hingewood need not apply.  Intentionally using dutchmans, exposing fibers of your hinge, snipes, etc are all ways to swing, control, and save out your wood efficiently and safely.

Not sure how i qouted myself here.  Tired i guess.  Disregard.
Buckin in the woods

sandsawmill14

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 18, 2016, 09:46:24 PM
That is a much deeper face cut then I do. I feel you want to be in the edge wood. Sap or summer wood. Not in the "dead" heart wood. It's not a strong hinge and that is your material vs the slab or waste wood where your hinge should be. And on a large tree you need like a 1"-2"  hinge. That hinge should hold till the tree is nearly horizontal. And you should be able to walk back at a 45 degree angle from the fall direction and not have to continue to cut your hinge. My 2 cents.
how deep do you cut for the notch ???  i generally go about 1/3 but every tree is different so i decide when i walk up to the tree. i bore cut almost all i cut if over 20" not necessary but it keeps me in practice i havent work in the woods in a few years just milling but i still cut a few every once in a while :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Firewoodjoe


Firewoodjoe

This tree was in the 60" range. Bored it from face and both sides. That hinge is close to the edge under 2" and I pulled this over with a 648 skidder (power line) and the hinge held. With no fiber pull and all with a 20" bar on a 372. Tree type and growth are all a factor. White oak hinge will hold stronger then say a black oak. I'm not saying anyone's technique is wrong just my opinion and how we were trained for sfi education. Saftey and quality of timber.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 12:21:42 AM
Quote from: CCC4 on March 18, 2016, 05:33:04 PM
No Sir, the face is a Humbolt, the added non meeting add on I put in the log is the snipe. Look at Bitzer's profile pic, his snipe is the additional add on he put in his stump.

So where was the phone call?!  I didn't have time to bs today anyway.
hey man! good to see you!

CCC4

I use the snipe for an additional stump lock when sending timber uphill. Use the snipe for downhill just to give an additional drop and keep on the stump a little longer.

Plankton


Anybody ever use angled snipes to get some roll on the stem? I tried that a while ago but I can't remember what happened. Angled like not directly centered on your gun.

CCC4

What length bar are you using Firewood Joe? I can't figure out your cut on that log. I am assuming a GOL? I Dnt understand the square edge on the right side of the log, was it originally faced out on that side? You said your cut was bored from the face, did you mean behind the hinge like GOL?

chester_tree _farmah

The problem with any heavy leaner and doing a regular back cut is the tree is going to start to fall well before u get the hinge thin enough. You can't cut fast enough to prevent pulling and even barber chair most times. The only cut I now use for a heavy leaner is a bore cut and leave a small piece of holding wood on the backside. Yup. GOL style. It was actually the wrecking of a beautiful birch veneer log on a heavy leaner that brought me to appreciate this cut so much. Since using it I have cut trees close to horizontal with no issues. Why? You get the hinge the way it should be than when ready snip the holding wood. The tree does not move till your hinge is proper enough to avoid pulling. Safer too.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

CCC4

Yes, I do that often, it works, the tree will commit to the first face then drift into the next as long as holding wood will behave.

CCC4


sandsawmill14

ok guys what is gol style  ??? i have been bore cutting tress since i a kid but i havent heard it called gol ??? headscratch
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

RHP Logging

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 19, 2016, 06:52:32 AM
This tree was in the 60" range. Bored it from face and both sides. That hinge is close to the edge under 2" and I pulled this over with a 648 skidder (power line) and the hinge held. With no fiber pull and all with a 20" bar on a 372. Tree type and growth are all a factor. White oak hinge will hold stronger then say a black oak. I'm not saying anyone's technique is wrong just my opinion and how we were trained for sfi education. Saftey and quality of timber.

I'm not knocking your style and SFI is great but you have to ask yourself a few questions.  If placing the hinge closer to center would have gotten the tree to tip with wedging instead of pulling?  Why bore cut a tree that is going to have to be wedged/pulled?  Putting the hinge so far forward in the tree does nothing for changing the center of gravity on it.  A stick straight tree won't move with a face that far forward.   By moving the hinge closer to center you are working with gravity instead of against it. On a tree 60" you could easily have put in a 40-50% face and had plenty of room to put wedges in the back and pull if you like.  You are also getting more length across the hinge if holding wood is a concern.  I agree that sap wood holds really well, but the center wood holds too.  Look at your sap wood on that butt.  Maybe a few inches. There is a time and a place for the face so far ahead.  Like when you need to jack a tree and you don't want to put too much pressure on the hinge or in smaller timber that needs to be wedged and you need the room.  Another thing with having the face that far forward is you are relying almost solely on the hinge wood.  A deeper face keeps the tree in lead just as much as the holding wood. There is cutting timber and there is timber falling.  Every tree is different and should be treated differently. Most trees do not need to be bore cut.  Bore cutting takes extra time and puts extra strain on the equipment and cutter.  Unless you are getting paid hourly there are more productive ways to do things.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on March 19, 2016, 11:15:40 AM
ok guys what is gol style  ??? i have been bore cutting tress since i a kid but i havent heard it called gol ??? headscratch

Scratch a face (notch) in,  bore cut everything, and hope for the best.  There is little thought given to individual trees and circumstances.  There is controlling a tree and there is manipulating a tree. GOL teaches control and safety which is great.  Manipulating a tree to get it to lay out how you want is a whole nother ball game.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on March 19, 2016, 08:49:46 AM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 12:21:42 AM
Quote from: CCC4 on March 18, 2016, 05:33:04 PM
No Sir, the face is a Humbolt, the added non meeting add on I put in the log is the snipe. Look at Bitzer's profile pic, his snipe is the additional add on he put in his stump.

So where was the phone call?!  I didn't have time to bs today anyway.
hey man! good to see you!

I haven't seen you in the usual places so I started looking!  I'm glad to have found Clint too.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: Plankton on March 19, 2016, 10:55:54 AM

Anybody ever use angled snipes to get some roll on the stem? I tried that a while ago but I can't remember what happened. Angled like not directly centered on your gun.

Yes sir!  Hows the logging biz?
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Here is the type of face I use when a tree needs max holding power usually in cases where it needs to be pulled or jacked.  Also if you need the tree to hang on the stump to save it out. I cut hazard trees on the side for the county.  This ash was in a park.  A little over 4ft on the stump. I had a cable on it for pulling, but I couldn't wait for the county guys to show and the face was clean when I opened er up so I jacked it.  I was in a hurry to get to my normal job. They showed up about 6 am scratchin their heads.  Its strictly cut and run when I cut for the county.

I took a pic before the snipe, but not after until I had it down.


What the block face does is it exposes the fibers of the hinge allowing them to flex over before the face closes giving max control. 
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:50:31 AM
Here is the type of face I use when a tree needs max holding power usually in cases where it needs to be pulled or jacked.  Also if you need the tree to hang on the stump to save it out. I cut hazard trees on the side for the county.  This ash was in a park.  A little over 4ft on the stump. I had a cable on it for pulling, but I couldn't wait for the county guys to show and the face was clean when I opened er up so I jacked it.  I was in a hurry to get to my normal job. They showed up about 6 am scratchin their heads.  Its strictly cut and run when I cut for the county. 

I took a pic before the snipe, but not after until I had it down.


What the block face does is it exposes the fibers of the hinge allowing them to flex over before the face closes giving max control. 


I quoted myself again and don't know how to delete it.  Gotta get used to these controls.
Buckin in the woods

CCC4

Nice cutting mang! Slayer uses that cut quite often. I have used it a few times, once down in a steep creek bank falling the tree up and out. I had very limited get away room and wanted to be dang sure she stayed on the stump instaed of coming back to see me! LOL!

RHP Logging

Thanks!  Yeah it will keep the stem up the hill alright.  It can be a bitch getting a nice clean block out.  You really don't want to sever the fibers cuz it won't work the same.
Buckin in the woods

chester_tree _farmah

We manipulate trees with the cut,  notch,  hinge, wedges etc. All I am saying is using holding wood on a heavy leaner gives u time to do your thing and than release when all is well and your hinge is thin. I have tried  nipping the ends and boring the face without holding wood with varying results. If the tree starts to fall before your hinge is thin enough it will most likely pull, tear and even split with a heavy leaner. I have learned the hard way and it has been a long while since I have had to trim the butt off a saw log to get rid of the pulls or splits. That's the way I do it and will but that is just my opinion. I thought the origimal post question was how to fell side hill keaners without wrecking wood but maybe I miss read it. If so nevermind. Carry on. :)
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

RHP Logging

Quote from: chester_tree _farmah on March 19, 2016, 02:37:11 PM
We manipulate trees with the cut,  notch,  hinge, wedges etc. All I am saying is using holding wood on a heavy leaner gives u time to do your thing and than release when all is well and your hinge is thin. I have tried  nipping the ends and boring the face without holding wood with varying results. If the tree starts to fall before your hinge is thin enough it will most likely pull, tear and even split with a heavy leaner. I have learned the hard way and it has been a long while since I have had to trim the butt off a saw log to get rid of the pulls or splits. That's the way I do it and will but that is just my opinion. I thought the origimal post question was how to fell side hill keaners without wrecking wood but maybe I miss read it. If so nevermind. Carry on. :)

I'm just not a fan of bore cutting.  Trees were cut before the swedes brought that technique over here.  It was brought up about the amount of hinge wood to keep, depth of face, pulling trees, etc so I kind of took off with it. So yeah I took it a little off track from the original post.  Personally I'd rather trim the back of the stump off the butt log than walk out to the truck for another bar or saw to cut my other one out when I've bored it and it sat down.  I know for a fact that boring just takes more time and to me that is lost income when I can get the same results another way.  Do you use dutchmans to swing trees?
Buckin in the woods

John Mc

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:50:31 AM


What the block face does is it exposes the fibers of the hinge allowing them to flex over before the face closes giving max control. 

Interesting. I've never seen anyone around here do that. In what kind of situation would you use the block face, as opposed to just cutting a more open notch?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Firewoodjoe

As I said a 20" bar was used. All we ever use. A bigger bar is much nicer and works better in most causes but is far from needed. And when I bore it from the front of the face cut its just that. Cut your face look straight at it and bore into the center of the tree through the face cut. U can see it on that butt log. And I don't see where cutting a deeper face cut uses the lean to a great extent. The tree is still leaning. If anything your cutting more of the wood that's holding the tree up in that direction. I've talked enough about this😀 Happy safe cutting everyone.

RHP Logging

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on March 19, 2016, 04:05:10 PM
As I said a 20" bar was used. All we ever use. A bigger bar is much nicer and works better in most causes but is far from needed. And when I bore it from the front of the face cut its just that. Cut your face look straight at it and bore into the center of the tree through the face cut. U can see it on that butt log. And I don't see where cutting a deeper face cut uses the lean to a great extent. The tree is still leaning. If anything your cutting more of the wood that's holding the tree up in that direction. I've talked enough about this😀 Happy safe cutting everyone.

I gut the heart too. That's one way to remove compression wood.  Removing the compression wood from a hard leaner is what the deep face is all about.  The compression wood is where the tree splits/chairs when not cut up properly. The tree is being held by the tension wood in the back.  That is why I pulled the stump out of the back or why when you bore a tree you leave a strap to keep it on the stump.  If you have a shallow face you are leaving a lot of that compression wood behind the hinge.  That is why when you cut the hinge up too tight when boring the backcut the tree will sit down on the bar.  Nothing wrong with hashing some things out.  That's how I learned and how bigger and better things are developed. A little back and forth if constructive is good. I love bullshittin about cutting timber.  I could do it all day.  I've run all bar sizes from 16-36" in a production setting and I settled on 32" as my favorite length all around.  Three cuts in most trees from one side of the stump and bucking the big ones from one side all save time. 
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: John Mc on March 19, 2016, 03:33:14 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:50:31 AM


What the block face does is it exposes the fibers of the hinge allowing them to flex over before the face closes giving max control. 

Interesting. I've never seen anyone around here do that. In what kind of situation would you use the block face, as opposed to just cutting a more open notch?

When laying one uphill for one.  It will keep the tree from sliding back at you.  If you have an obstacle out in the lay and you need to keep the tree attached to the stump for as long as possible.  Laying out across a draw it can keep the tree stretched out instead of smashing the crap out of the top and last log(s). Its the way the old timers cut them in the PNW.  I tend to lean towards the older ways of timber falling, but with some tweaks for hardwood.  Trying to save out every log, every time.
Buckin in the woods

chester_tree _farmah

Yes RHP I have used the Dutchman to swing trees. It is quite the trick when done right for sure. It is only for advanced skilled cutters and I am not saying I fall into that category. Only that I  have used it or have atempted to. Haha.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

Mountaynman

Rhp great ideas for sure can talk about fallin timber all day as well like your block face idea but usually bore cut they have been doin it here in the northeast long before the swedes came over mostly to save butt logs on the steep side hills years ago a mill bought a large sale down in the catskills and had it choppered out but the fallers were splittin the trees left and right a buddy of mine and his crew went in to cut it for them it was like 2 million feet of maple and cherry like 15 years ago
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Plankton

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: Plankton on March 19, 2016, 10:55:54 AM

Anybody ever use angled snipes to get some roll on the stem? I tried that a while ago but I can't remember what happened. Angled like not directly centered on your gun.

Yes sir!  Hows the logging biz?

Getting better, was a pretty bad winter weather wise and breakdown wise. Got a good full day of skidding today which is more then I can say for the last few weeks.

I'm gonna try some angled snipes tommorow for fun see what I can do with it.

Plankton

SoftWood so a whole different ball game but this one from a few days ago was leaning heavy to the left and forward.

Cut half of a coos bay from the left and thinned the center hold wood, Then backed it up like normal and chased it down.

180 degree roll was pretty cool to watch.



I would say use whatever combination of techniques you need to get the timber down as quickly and safely as possible. I wouldn't stick to one way for every tree, every tree is different. I like to look at my stumps carefully on trees that didn't do what I wanted them to try to figure out why and try something else next time.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: Plankton on March 19, 2016, 10:55:54 AM

Anybody ever use angled snipes to get some roll on the stem? I tried that a while ago but I can't remember what happened. Angled like not directly centered on your gun.
of course

treeslayer2003

Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:35:29 AM
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on March 19, 2016, 08:49:46 AM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 12:21:42 AM
Quote from: CCC4 on March 18, 2016, 05:33:04 PM
No Sir, the face is a Humbolt, the added non meeting add on I put in the log is the snipe. Look at Bitzer's profile pic, his snipe is the additional add on he put in his stump.

So where was the phone call?!  I didn't have time to bs today anyway.
hey man! good to see you!

I haven't seen you in the usual places so I started looking!  I'm glad to have found Clint too.
i can be found in a couple different places. i can't do much with 2 sites because of the software they use. i can't wait 15 minutes for a page to load. some one asked me if i was mad, of course not. i just got tired of those sites not loading right.

in case any one is wondering, i cut alot like this guy. i will only add this, in some of the timber here, gol don't work at all on the big heavy leaners. i have had them start to split vertically up the back side way before i can close to to the back. so like was said, there is no cure all do all cut. thats why there are so many different styles, cuz there is so many different kinds of wood.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: John Mc on March 19, 2016, 03:33:14 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:50:31 AM


What the block face does is it exposes the fibers of the hinge allowing them to flex over before the face closes giving max control. 

Interesting. I've never seen anyone around here do that. In what kind of situation would you use the block face, as opposed to just cutting a more open notch?
John the block is the cut for keeping the stick on the stump. but i also use it to get max flex on the brittle wood i am in much of the time. it can also make it easier to get a stick to start moving with wedges while still keeping a thick enough hinge so it won't break. block with snipe out of stump and wedges = maximum steering. only thing better is a sizwheel but it don't work well in very brittle wood.

sandsawmill14

i almost always block it out like rph did in the pic but my block will be 6" or more wide then bore in from the front at an angle until i get out of the tree then do the same to the other side leaving a about 4" or more triangle(depending on size of the tree) for the hinge and to keep tree setting down on saw then i come around to the side and stick bar were i came out from the front and cut back to whatever i need for holding wood i do this from both sides when i am ready to turn it lose the tree is standing on 3 "legs" then cut the hold wood at a steep angle to release the tree if i want it to roll off the stump i will clip the hinge on one side as it starts down :) a 28" bar is long as i have but if it will reach through i only cut from one side instead of both like i said above  :) it might  take 30-40 min to cut one down but thats not to bad for 2500+ bdft of logs ;)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Nemologger

I have cut some pretty hard leaners on the Mississippi river bluffs. The way I found to best get the tree down without  busting it or cracking the hinge is to cut the back spur first. That way your not going to root pull and split it, Then I cut a 90 degree hinge in the front side.  I bore the sides back evenly until it pops the plug so to speak. By not having the back spur holding when it goes it goes fast. But I have never busted a good tree using this method. It that back spur holds any she will bust, so I cut it first.
Clean and Sober

RHP Logging

Quote from: Mountaynman on March 19, 2016, 06:04:12 PM
Rhp great ideas for sure can talk about fallin timber all day as well like your block face idea but usually bore cut they have been doin it here in the northeast long before the swedes came over mostly to save butt logs on the steep side hills years ago a mill bought a large sale down in the catskills and had it choppered out but the fallers were splittin the trees left and right a buddy of mine and his crew went in to cut it for them it was like 2 million feet of maple and cherry like 15 years ago

Thank you sir!  I feel like I heard Soren Erickson first came to the states in the mid 70s with his bore cutting techniques.  I wouldn't doubt that some were bore cutting here before that.  Everyone seems to want to cut timber.  Not everyone can tho. Sometimes you can pull a hard leaner sidehill with a Dutchman on the downhill side and a sizwheel on the uphill.  Often you'll end up pulling half the stump out to bring it around and if you don't do it right you can bust up the butt log.  Sometimes its better than letting a downhill leaner just fly down the hill.  Other times if its heavy enough its only going one way anyway. Cut er up tight and hope for the best.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

Quote from: Plankton on March 19, 2016, 08:10:03 PM
Quote from: RHP Logging on March 19, 2016, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: Plankton on March 19, 2016, 10:55:54 AM

Anybody ever use angled snipes to get some roll on the stem? I tried that a while ago but I can't remember what happened. Angled like not directly centered on your gun.

Yes sir!  Hows the logging biz?

Getting better, was a pretty bad winter weather wise and breakdown wise. Got a good full day of skidding today which is more then I can say for the last few weeks.

I'm gonna try some angled snipes tommorow for fun see what I can do with it.

We had zero frost in the ground here.  It rained from mid-Nov til New years and then finally got cold.  Snowed before it got cold tho so the frost never got in.  Never really got that cold either and had several thaws in between.  Winter quit the first week of march.  Worst in years.  What kind of issues were you having with the machine?  You have a family to feed? That definitely puts the pressure on a guy.
Buckin in the woods

RHP Logging

[quote/]i can be found in a couple different places. i can't do much with 2 sites because of the software they use. i can't wait 15 minutes for a page to load. some one asked me if i was mad, of course not. i just got tired of those sites not loading right.

in case any one is wondering, i cut alot like this guy. i will only add this, in some of the timber here, gol don't work at all on the big heavy leaners. i have had them start to split vertically up the back side way before i can close to to the back. so like was said, there is no cure all do all cut. thats why there are so many different styles, cuz there is so many different kinds of wood.
[/quote]

I thought maybe you were gettin tired of my big mouth!  I don't blame ya if yer havin tech difficulties. That's super irritating. I'm not really savvy myself.
Buckin in the woods

enigmaT120

You guys are making me wonder how I ever get a tree on the ground.  It's like a different language.   I'll shut up and keep reading now.  The videos do help some.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

John Mc

Quote from: enigmaT120 on March 19, 2016, 11:57:45 PM
You guys are making me wonder how I ever get a tree on the ground.  It's like a different language

There is more than one way to skin a cat.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

sandsawmill14

Quote from: John Mc on March 20, 2016, 12:13:05 AM
Quote from: enigmaT120 on March 19, 2016, 11:57:45 PM
You guys are making me wonder how I ever get a tree on the ground.  It's like a different language

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

this is certainly true :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Mountaynman

all great ideas the best thing coming out of this is sharing different ideas form other parts of the country be safe everyone not many people have the skills or the nerve to do what we do everyday falling timber is a unique skill that is always evolving gramp said if you don't learn something everyday you didn't work long enough had us in the barn milkin cows at 330am figured if you had the first 8 hrs in by noon you had the rest of the day to sort out the problems ready to have at it tmr morn be safe all
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

Mountaynman

couple of the big white oaks were butt hollow blew one up but not worth anything anyways landed the other in the top pile rest went well tried out the block face on a couple pine liked it went well gotta get my lady to the job for some pics still runnin a flip phone the hickory is splittin on the landing gonna wait to buck I guess still to wet to run the buggy hope everyone else had a gd day wish I had found this fourm earlier lots of gd discussions here
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

gspren

   First off I'm not a logger by any means, just an old retired machinist that's been cutting firewood for 50 years and was hoping to get some good ideas on some leaning trees in my woods I'd like to get down for firewood. I really enjoy read this even though I don't understand half of what you guys are talking about but I believe I have decided to find someone that knows what they are doing to knock some down for me, I really respect what some of you are capable of.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

sandsawmill14

gspren  when cutting firewood i dont take all the care that me and the others described cutting leaners. if it splits thats that much i dont have to split ;D :D :D :D but if you are not comfortable cutting them dont. get someone that knows how to down them for you :) IMO it aint worth the risk of getting hurt or worse hurt_smiley 
when you cut trees for a living you have no choice but to cut them but you know the safest way just like any other skilled trade but i had a friend killed about 3 months ago was about 60 years old and was a 3rd gen logger he was working with his brother and nephew when it happened :( made the third one in about 6-8 years from our area :o there is no reason for a land owner to ever cut a dangerous tree they can all be dangerous but i think you guys know what i mean ;)  sorry for the rant :)
back to leaners ;D  one tree thats scares me to death to have to cut is a big old oak tree standing in a yard or pasture you know the type where the top is wider than the tree is tall :o i can never tell which way there gonna go so if i have to cut one i just pull it so i know for sure ;D  (hopefully)  ::) i had rather cut 10 leaners than one of them at least with the leaners you know which way to run :D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

treeslayer2003

you fire wood guys scare me cuz your falling alot of dead sticks with dead limbs ready to fall and crown ya on the head. i like to drive them down with big green stick, y'all can't do that very often. look up and stay safe boys.

sandsawmill14

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on March 21, 2016, 08:04:35 PM
you fire wood guys scare me cuz your falling alot of dead sticks with dead limbs ready to fall and crown ya on the head. i like to drive them down with big green stick, y'all can't do that very often. look up and stay safe boys.

x2 the only time i have been hit was on the left shoulder knocked me down but other than some bruising i was fine  :o  guess where my hard hat was when it happened ??? ??? ???  hanging on the throttle lever on 285 mf i was snaking out with :-[ smiley_dunce  :-[ the trees were cut the day before and the limb was still hanging waiting on me >:(
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Mountaynman

gspren not tryin to do anything but learn here all of us that do it for a livin learn something every day if not we didn't work hard or long enough got 42 down and out to the field tday rain for 3 days now maybe a check next week life of bein in the woods doin what I love to do gd thing my helper is the same way we cant make a mess up here gonna go cut up in the rain tmr put my big mud farmer boots on happy loggin to all this wood is gd worth the extra effort
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

sandsawmill14

gspren i wasnt trying to be mean or anything :) just saying not to take any chances that you dont have to. any time you cut a tree its dangerous but some more so than others :)

mountaynman  its nice to get in timber like that aint it smiley_thumbsup :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Mountaynman

we were shot tday anyone that pulls cable for a livin knows that when u r goin slider to slider with a 10 ft choker u got somethin the pine here is 12 -1500 ft to a tree filled the buggy with 4 trees today most are skidded from the top wich sucks but 1 or 2 at a time just hope the rattlers don't wake up soon south slope one of the few places in ny that has rattlers
Semi Retired too old and fat to wade thru waist deep snow hand choppin anymore

sandsawmill14

better watch for them rattlers :o the last log/saw job i done i took the mill to the woods and sawed the timber instead of hauling/handling it twice :) worked out pretty good but  anyway i got to the mill 1 morning and there was a copperhead almost 4' long laying between the log deck and mill :o they were everywhere on that job :( didnt have another easy minute for the rest of the job after finding that big one >:( i couldnt hardly work for looking for snakes :-\ :-[ :D :D i dont know why a big snake is scarier than a little one but they are :D :D :D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

gspren

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on March 22, 2016, 06:35:56 PM
gspren i wasnt trying to be mean or anything :) just saying not to take any chances that you dont have to. any time you cut a tree its dangerous but some more so than others :)

mountaynman  its nice to get in timber like that aint it smiley_thumbsup :)

  I didn't take it wrong, I appreciate the concern, 15 years ago I would have just cut them and hoped for the best, not today. Aside from a bum ankle that doesn't let me run joining this forum has opened my eyes to all the ways to get hurt cutting wood. Now I wear a helmet and chaps and if I don't like the looks of a leaner I'll let it stand. I wish I knew a local logger but there aren't any/many near me.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

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