log scale vs. board feet you actually get

[road_monkey]

I cut some hemlock out of my woods to have my neighbor saw for me to finish off the interior of my cabin. I scaled the logs, figured I had 465 ft doyle, but I figured I needed around 500 ft to do what I wanted inside the cabin. I mentioned this to my neighbor, he said "that's plenty, it will just about double".   I said "huh??"    he said you will probably end up with 8-900ft.    well, he sawed it (with a t.a. Schmidt bandmill) and I counted every piece, added it all up on paper, ended up with 1117 bd. ft.    my question is, why do we still use this system if its so far off?  as a landowner that sells logs from time to time, I feel like I have been getting screwed for the last 22 years.  what kind of overrun do you guys typically get on your bandmills?   this worked out to be 2.4 times the volume.

[road_monkey]

the cabin



 



 



 

logs in question.


 

lumber


 

[Peter Drouin]

In NH we use International ¼" and that is close to the BF to lumber scale. I run 5 to 10 BF over on a log or right on.  And that's because I have an 1/8" cut not a ¼
I would not sell logs on a doyle scale.

[Magicman]

Doyle, Scribner C, and International ¼ are all very close with 20" plus logs, but Doyle is off big time as the logs get smaller.  It is ridiculously off with 12" and smaller logs.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Seems the Doyle scale is rapidly going out of scale. Till then I'd just make sure you sell or pay accordingly. If Doyle actually yields twice the wood I'd just charge twice as much to anyone buying my logs who wanted to use it.

[Magicman]

The problem is that the difference is not linear.  Doyle is not twice with all log diameters.  The scales are ~equal above 20", but Doyle drops off with a steeper curve below 20".

[Bandmill Bandit]

I like the international scale my self. Find it is with in about +/- 10%.

Have also discovered that the doyle scale actually works not bad IF you scale from the big end of the log AND you are sawing with a band saw. Comes out real close to the International scale. 

[YoungStump]

 The Doyle scale is the most popular around here, basically it automatically penalizes the logger for selling small logs. Waste and processing costs are higher with smaller logs also the logs will not yield near the amount of upper grade lumber as bigger logs.
I don't look at the footage a log scales as an accurate representation of the amount of footage it will saw out to, but as a pre-agreed upon basis for determining log value. There is no way we could afford to pay what we do (per bf) for logs if we were buying on the international scale.
  Depending on what species of wood you are sawing and what type of lumber you are producing I can see where the international scale would make more sense.

[Magicman]

I had never even thought about using the scale on the bottom end.   : :P

[GAB]

road_monkey:
I have an inexpensive and educational suggestion for you.
The next rainy day sit down with a calculator, some log scales, and some paper and make up an imaginary load of small logs, and do the same for medium size logs and also for large logs.  Then scale those loads with all the scales you care to use and compare the results.  This should be an eye opener for you.
I sawed a pile of logs for a fellow who was buying them.
These logs were sawed within the previous few months.  Some were butt logs and some were the second, third and fourth log up.
I measured the diameter inside the bark and the length rounded off to the nearest foot as they were loaded onto the mill.  No allowances were made for any of the log defects.
According to the Doyle scale there was 5236 board feet of lumber.
According to the Int'l 1/4" scale there was 7360 board feet of lumber.
I only sawed 9259 board feet.
If my memory serves me correctly I sawed all 1" and 2" material.
Gerald

[Hackermatack]

That sounds about rite, if I really pinch a small log I can nearly double the scale but I usually don't unless it is something really special. After all how many 1 x 3 x 6' can I use. Big logs maybe 10%. International is predominate here because of vigorous lumber trade with Canada.

[road_monkey]

Gab,   Just curious,  what end of the logs did you scale?  When i scaled mine, i did the small end

[GAB]

Gab,   Just curious,  what end of the logs did you scale?  When i scaled mine, i did the small end

I always measure the small end because when I cut trees I try very hard not to leave high stumps especially cherry.  For example 1 foot on the stump of a 30" diameter cherry is approx 40 board feet of lumber, and at $1200/thousand that equates to roughly $48.00.  Do 100 hundred like that and you are talking some serious coins in my opinion.  I have a chainsaw to handle the but flare if I need to.
I hope you were not offended by my suggestion.
Gerald

[Hackermatack]

Never seen anyone scale anything other than the small end but scale can vary quite a bit from scaler to scaler on the same log. Some will scale at the smallest possible diameter, many games are played depending on price, quality, and supply and demand. My son sent a simi load of the prettiest pine I ever saw last fall, it scaled just over 10,000 feet. The trucker said he had been hauling with the same trailer for several years and never had a load scale over 9500. Nice logs and they wanted him to come back!

[sandsawmill14]

normally the price is within a few dollars no matter what scale is used i normally 50-100 dollars per thousand doyle than the prices ive seen paid for int 1/4 but there are so few using the int 1/4 i dont know if its like that everywhere or not. but i can tell you about 30-35% of the logs we get are 10"or under and they are worth about 4 bucks delivered they will make 4 boards and and a 4x6 bringing 8-9 bucks after its sawed :-\  years ago when we bought logs by grade if it was under 11" it brought $175 per 1000  and even if it is a butt log you will only get 2 boards that are fas if your lucky they are so small you are in the pith by the time you get the slab off and the grade lowers with every cut.  if it wasnt for the over run no one could buy them. the only mill i knew of using int 1/4 was paying $300 per 1000 and we were paying 425  but it all ends up the same in the end.    besides if you are selling saw logs instead of pulp  ;D the 2 scales are really close to each other in the middle and doyle favors the logger on the big logs

[sandsawmill14]

the  small end is correct for all scales that i have seen

[road_monkey]

Gab,   Absolutely no offense taken, but im not sure what i was supposed to learn on the experiment.  My question was more geared toward the overrun of doyle scale on the size of the logs pictured

[Magicman]

BB never said that scaling a log from the bottom end was correct, but that it seemed to overcame the built-in deficiency of scaling small logs with the Doyle scale.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I still say either scale is fair as long as you both agree, measure the same way and pay accordingly. I prefer international 1/4 and have it on the back of my business card as more accurate representation of what a customer will get out of his logs on my mill (I tell them we will normally beat it if good straight logs) but if I were buying or selling logs and the customer insisted on using Doyle I'd just sell for a different rate.

[Chuck White]

Whenever I scale logs (not very often) for a customer I always use International 1/4 inch and add 20% and it comes out pretty close to lumber actually sawn!

[Bandmill Bandit]

BB never said that scaling a log from the bottom end was correct, but that it seemed to overcame the built-in deficiency of scaling small logs with the Doyle scale.

Yea I got that MM. I guess I should have worded it a bit different. Didn't mean to imply that you were incorrect. just meant to give another example that I have found to be fair most of the time. BUT as you point out as the diameter decreases the accuracy goes to pot on all the scaling methods.   

[Ohio_Bill]

Another thing that makes you think you are getting very high oversaw % is scale was for 4/4 hardwood sawn with a circle mill.  4/4 hardwood is 1and 1/8 inch thick. So if you saw 1 inch thick that its self is a 12.5% increase and about another 12.5 % for kerf if you're using a band mill. 

[road_monkey]

interesting reading I found:

https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/Pb1650.pdf

doyle was invented before 1850, scribner was 1846, international 1/8" rule was 1906, but in 1917 changed to 1/4" rule.
just seems to me in these modern times we could come up with/use a more accurate means of dealing with logs and lumber

[Dave Shepard]

It really doesn't matter what the yield is from any scale system. It is simply a measure on which to base payment.  Int. 1/4" is the most commonly used around here. If I buy a thousand feet of pine on the 1/4", it doesn't matter what I do with it. I could saw it on a circle mill, a bandmill, run it through a shavings mill, or attempt to smoke each log like a giant cigar. The best analogy I've come up with is a gallon of gasoline. Should someone getting 40 mpg with their Civic pay more per gallon than someone with a pickup truck just because they have a more efficient vehicle? No. It's just a unit of measure.

[road_monkey]

dave, yes it does matter for the purpose of sawing.  lets say I brought these logs to your mill to saw for me.  we agreed on $.25 per bd.ft.    I scale them in front of you and we both agree there is 465 bd. ft., and I hand you $114.    or I come back tomorrow after you sawed my logs, we count up everything, and agree there is 1117 bd.ft, and I give you $279.25.    see my point?