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Things to know when talking to a log seller?

Started by woodworker9, March 04, 2016, 03:28:46 PM

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woodworker9

So far, I haven't been able to get connected very well with the local tree guys.  They talk a good game, but never seem to actually wanna make logs available to me.  I do all I can to make things as easy for them as possible, offering to come and pick up logs quickly, etc.....but still to, mostly, no avail.

Being in Northern Illinois, I haven't found too many loggers around these parts.  Actually, I've only found one so far.  I spoke with him on the phone, and I'm planning on meeting with him soon. 

What "terms" should I be familiar with when talking to him?  What lumber scale is the accepted scale for calculating board feet, to the logger/trucker?

Any help and advice you fine folks can pass so that I can communicate better and not sound too much like a NEWB would be appreciated.

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

woodworker9

I have to find out, I guess.  Is there one more prevalent than others, and is there one that loggers want to use that sellers don't? 

This is the sort of information I'm hoping to gleam from this topic and learning experience.  I'm trying to avoid looking and sounding like a mark.  With so few choices that I've found so far, my options may be limited unless I leave the area and seek out timber from up north in Wisconsin, UP Michigan and Minnesota.

Besides my weekly needs of hardwood, I'm also in the planning stages of a new, bigger workshop, and I will be building a timberframe.  I'd like to source what I need in white pine for that......later this year.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Peter Drouin

You have to read logs and know what's inside them so when you cut them open your not too surprised. And the only way I know how to do that is to do it.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Cazzhrdwd

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 04, 2016, 07:57:51 PM
You have to read logs and know what's inside them so when you cut them open your not too surprised. And the only way I know how to do that is to do it.

^^^
This is the first thing you must learn.

As far as getting guys to sell you logs, it is very difficult. I would find out where they are selling, ask that mill what they are paying for logs and put your prices just slightly above.
Tree companies want to move their logs, they don't want log buyers picking and choosing.
Sometimes you can pay less if you give them a flat price for everything.


But as Peter said, you need to know the grade you're buying.

Bottom line is money talks, you pay the most, you get the most logs. :)
96 Woodmizer LT40Super  Woodmizer 5 head moulder

Larch

Can't disagree with anything written in this thread.  My first response was well, you're going to be a mark until you aren't, and that's the price of admission.  And it's the price everyone pays.  The loggers have seen people like you and me come and go for years and you might as well be a big, juicy pork chop to them. 

Your biggest defense against nonsense is to know what the big mills are paying in your area.  You will pay more, and you should as loggers are going out of their way for you.  But remember the mill doesn't pay trucking either.  Your paying trucking may be enough to get their ear.  But probably not.

Bottom line is you either pay your way in as a reliable buyer or you seriously consider buying a large woodlot, right now, owning your own logs, and promising yourself you will never buy a log from a logger. 

Horrible and hopeless advice to be sure, but accept you will pay one way or the other.  Pay to be in the club or pay to make your own way.  It's a brutal process.  Just like any other business, I suppose. 

4x4American

Buying logs is a pain in the butt, even around here, where there is a log truck or 3 driving by every hour..
I'm still learning the ropes myself, and being a member of this forum is a huge advantage. 
Boy, back in my day..

Brucer

I buy my logs from a mill that makes plywood veneer. They want good quality logs to start with -- they save the straightest ones for me (52'' 52' long) and charge me a lot. It's worth it.

When I first approached the log seller, I had already crunched the numbers and I knew how much I could afford to pay for logs. The seller quoted me a price, and I said OK. He was surprised.

Then I told him I was still arranging for a place to set up my mill and I didn't want to buy any logs for another month. He gave me a polite, "oh sure, I've heard this before look." Then I asked him if he wanted a deposit to reserve some logs for me. He said he'd like 50% of a full truckload in advance, so I pulled out my checkbook and started filling in the amount. He was even more surprised.

I have never ordered logs from this company until I had the cash in the bank. At first he wanted cash before the truck left his yard. Then he said he'd invoice me the day the logs left the yard.

A couple of times when logs were in short supply and I had a sudden large order to fill, he would divert logs to me that he had been stockpiling for another customer. I found out later the other customer was always a month late paying.

This guy and I became good friends. Other people have told me he's really hard to get along with.

The key for me was ...
1) Know what I can afford to pay, and don't try to dicker if the asking price was lower.
2) Be prepared to pay according to the sellers requirements.
3) Pay promptly.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

PC-Urban-Sawyer

52" long logs? What do you use the lumber for? What species is this?

Just wondering...


Herb

Peter Drouin

And sometimes the logger want's you to buy all the Pine or Hemlock on that cut. So they can tell the land owner where all the logs went. And not all over the place.
That just happen to me, I wanted 10,000 BF of W Pine but got 22,000 BF and 15,000 BF of hemlock. :D And I ask another logger for some Hemlock before the one that I got all that wood from. I forgot about him. So now I have 12,000 BF of Hemlock coming from him.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :D :D :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

GAB

Quote from: Brucer on March 05, 2016, 01:09:48 AM
I buy my logs from a mill that makes plywood veneer. They want good quality logs to start with -- they save the straightest ones for me (52'' long) and charge me a lot. It's worth it.

When I first approached the log seller, I had already crunched the numbers and I knew how much I could afford to pay for logs. The seller quoted me a price, and I said OK. He was surprised.

Then I told him I was still arranging for a place to set up my mill and I didn't want to buy any logs for another month. He gave me a polite, "oh sure, I've heard this before look." Then I asked him if he wanted a deposit to reserve some logs for me. He said he'd like 50% of a full truckload in advance, so I pulled out my checkbook and started filling in the amount. He was even more surprised.

I have never ordered logs from this company until I had the cash in the bank. At first he wanted cash before the truck left his yard. Then he said he'd invoice me the day the logs left the yard.

A couple of times when logs were in short supply and I had a sudden large order to fill, he would divert logs to me that he had been stockpiling for another customer. I found out later the other customer was always a month late paying.

This guy and I became good friends. Other people have told me he's really hard to get along with.

The key for me was ...
1) Know what I can afford to pay, and don't try to dicker if the asking price was lower.
2) Be prepared to pay according to the sellers requirements.
3) Pay promptly.

#3, or the last two words of this post will do an awful lot to enhance your reputation.  One bounced check (regardless the reason) and it will destroy you.
In another post there was mention of log scale.  I was informed that although the Doyle scale was not illegal in the New England states it is heavily frowned upon, as it penalizes the seller of small diameter logs.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

WDH

Down here, the issue is unloading.  There are no self-loading trucks, and the loggers expect to get unloaded in 30 minutes or less as it is all about the # of loads and volume per day.  The medium sized crews move about 16 loads/ day, and even the small 1 skidder crews move about 8 loads a day.

The loggers will not stand for a truck to sit for hours for the small bandmill operator without the equipment to unload the truck fast. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Peter Drouin

So WDH, If a guy had a truck like this he would do ok.



 
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Ianab

Locally all the trucks are as WDH describes. No self loaders.

All the logging crews will have a large wheel loader or excavator with grapple or at least a thumb available at the landing, so they can load the logs pretty quickly. The mills, and the log yard at the port have large wheel loaders to get the logs off.

The thing with a self loader is the weight and space taken by the crane is subtracted from the load the truck can legally carry. So if 98% of the jobs don't need a loader the self loading truck is a liability. Costs more, hauls less on each load.

Ideally this is how you unload a log truck  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wuyoA4Idik
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Glenn1

Quote from: WDH on March 05, 2016, 10:46:05 AM
Down here, the issue is unloading.  There are no self-loading trucks, and the loggers expect to get unloaded in 30 minutes or less as it is all about the # of loads and volume per day.  The medium sized crews move about 16 loads/ day, and even the small 1 skidder crews move about 8 loads a day.

The loggers will not stand for a truck to sit for hours for the small bandmill operator without the equipment to unload the truck fast.

I had a truck load of poplar delivered to my sawmill.  There was over 4000bf so we just rented a Lull for the day.  We were taking off four 16' logs at a time.  It took no time at all and the driver was back on his way (happy).
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Peter Drouin

Out in the North East with the land the way it is . A truck with a loader is the fastest way to move logs.
And even with that Ianab. No way an excavator can load a truck faster then a man with a truck mount loader.
He set up high and can see the whole truck bed. The excavator is on one side or from the end and can't see the top of the load.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Cazzhrdwd

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 05, 2016, 09:30:23 AM
And sometimes the logger want's you to buy all the Pine or Hemlock on that cut. So they can tell the land owner where all the logs went. And not all over the place.
That just happen to me, I wanted 10,000 BF of W Pine but got 22,000 BF and 15,000 BF of hemlock. :D And I ask another logger for some Hemlock before the one that I got all that wood from. I forgot about him. So now I have 12,000 BF of Hemlock coming from him.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :D :D :D :D

I remember having a Walnut harvest priced up by several different buyers. The sawmill was amazingly willing to pay the most, it seems that the veneer buyer pays much less for saw logs since he has to resell them. Usually the sawmill sells the veneer but this particular one has a great market for Walnut, they're sawing it. That's another point for marketing your logs to mills who specialize in certain species. You wouldn't sell butt logs to a sawmill that only sells them.
96 Woodmizer LT40Super  Woodmizer 5 head moulder

Ianab

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 05, 2016, 07:03:35 PM
Out in the North East with the land the way it is . A truck with a loader is the fastest way to move logs.
And even with that Ianab. No way an excavator can load a truck faster then a man with a truck mount loader.
He set up high and can see the whole truck bed. The excavator is on one side or from the end and can't see the top of the load.

That's certainly true, but I'd still say the non-loading truck could potentially get more wood hauled in a day, especially if it's a longer trip to the mill. A GOOD excavator operator can get the logs on a truck in pretty good time, can have the logs all sorted / graded and staged on the landing, and ready to go when the truck pulls up.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

losttheplot

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 05, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
So WDH, If a guy had a truck like this he would do ok.


Just curious. Why do they cut all the logs so short over there  ???

Cheers.
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

sandsawmill14

not sure about Georgia but here we are only allowed about 88,000 if they havent changed it lately so a truck like that wouldnt haul enough (be to heavy) to be worth it down here :-\ we do have some trucks that haul a double bunk load with loaders that haul around 3000 ft maybe alittle more if its good logs :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Bruno of NH

Money money money you have to pay to play .
Get some contacts pay cash at first with a little extra then you will get some logs .
Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Brucer

Quote from: PC-Urban-Sawyer on March 05, 2016, 08:13:37 AM
52" long logs? What do you use the lumber for? What species is this?

Douglas-Fir.

I saw timbers to order so I never know what lengths or diameters I going to need. I get twice as much $ per BF for timbers vs. 1" & 2" lumber. Buying long logs gives me a lot of flexibility. If I've got a 52' log measuring 12" at the top, I can saw 8x8's from the top of the log, 8x10's from the middle, and 8x12'x or 10x10' from the bottom.

And sometimes somebody wants a  36' long 8x12  ;D.


Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

WV Sawmiller

Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

PC-Urban-Sawyer

Brucer,

My question/comment was because your post indicated 52 inch (52") long logs... and I was wondering what market you had for lumber that was just barely 4' long.  Knowing that you meant 52 feet long logs makes things make a lot more sense.

Herb

Peter Drouin

Ianab, most of the loggers here have a skid steer to do that. The logger I got the wood from has a slasher / loader on the job site to do that. When the truck comes the logs are all set to load. And the slasher is cutting logs to lenth and putting tree tops in the chipper. Big Cat graple skiders pulling bunches of trees out . A tiger Cat cutting and droping trees.
It a thing to see.
And yes you can put more wood on a truck with no loader. but here, that would liment the places you can go. With a loader you can go any where to get logs or drop them off.
At the fairs I go to they race to see who can load a truck and unload the the truck in less than 5min.
I have seen guys here can pull your teeth if you want to. :D :D




losttheplot, It has always been like that here, Good for the mills, They don't have to fool with them. Or get a small log that is pulp. I don't like to buy logs with a top end smaller then 10"
I see on TV on some shows with 4" wood in other states, I guess they have a market for that.



Brucer, We don't have Douglas Fir. the long stuff I have is Hemlock 24' and20' If I get a call for longer stuff it is for W Pine. And I can't let that wood lay around with blue stain and bugs.  So I oder it when I need it. Do the bugs get in the fir?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

woodworker9

Thanks, guys, interesting read.  We'll see how it goes.  The only logger I know of around here (so far) has a truck like Peter shows, and he unloads at my site.  I have a skidsteer for moving them to the mill, and a lot of other work around here.  I also have a 14,400 lb. trailer and a 26,000 gvw International, so I can go pick stuff up, if needed.

I just need to locate sources at this point.

Thanks for all the input.

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Brucer

Quote from: PC-Urban-Sawyer on March 05, 2016, 09:57:17 PM
My question/comment was because your post indicated 52 inch (52") long logs...

Oops. Just fixed it. Thanks.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 05, 2016, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Brucer on March 05, 2016, 09:45:48 PM
And sometimes somebody wants a  36' long 8x12  ;D.

If they do I know I don't want to off-bear for you :o >:(

The dragback pulls slabs and flitches onto my 34' long roller table. I push them onto a set of horses beside the table. Then when the log is done I take a chainsaw and cut them all to reasonable lengths.

The timber gets rolled the other direction onto my offloading roller table.

Rollers are your friend :) :).

Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 05, 2016, 10:04:57 PM
Brucer, We don't have Douglas Fir. the long stuff I have is Hemlock 24' and20' If I get a call for longer stuff it is for W Pine. And I can't let that wood lay around with blue stain and bugs.  So I oder it when I need it. Do the bugs get in the fir?

Nope. Douglas-Fir isn't actually a Fir. It's nearly as decay and bug resistant as the Cedars. The only bugs I see are ambrosia beetles. They make tiny pinholes which show up as short, black lines in the sapwood. They don't affect the strength of the wood.

That's one reason I stick to sawing Douglas-Fir. I can keep a log around for a year or two and it is still sound.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Peter Drouin

My Hemlock is like that , Will last a long time.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Brad_bb

I can use 4-6 foot logs if the diameter is sufficient.  A need a minimum 4' to get a timberframe brace, either 4x8 or 3x7 free of pith with a half inch of extra wood to plane after some air drying.

If it's 6 foot, I can get a 6x6 boxed heart brace or if large enough diameter, 2 free of heart and some boards, or two 4x8's fee of heart and some boards.  6 foot boards are often useable for wood working projects or flooring.  You have to look at each piece to determine what is best to get out of it.

The point is, 4-6 foot logs do have uses. Time-wise it's not as efficient as milling longer logs, because you have to do the same set up time and repositioning while getting half the yield (amount of wood).  I do it though when making wood for myself.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

thecfarm

As Peter said many have loaders. Must be a region thing. ;D I went once with a load of logs cut on my land. There was a line waiting to be unloaded,but since he had a loader we got right in and started to unload. The logs for lumber are scaled here with a stick too,not by weight.At the paper mill I went once and he was able to unload right next to the flume. No waiting for the crane to unload.
This truck is a common sight to see.



 

And this is common to see too.



 
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

4x4American

There's many different kinds of log trucks around here, but most of them are straight truck with bunks, a self loader on the back, and then a pup trailer.  I believe they can haul around 8mbf International.  There is a big hardwood mill a couple miles up the road from me so I see log trucks and lumber trucks pretty much constantly.  I'm on a corner of a 55mph county road so I get to hear the jakes both ways, and it's a hill too so I hear them jaking for the corner and then rompin on the go pedal to climb the grade.  I just love it  smiley_bounce
Boy, back in my day..

Brucer

Quote from: WDH on March 05, 2016, 10:46:05 AM
Down here, the issue is unloading.  ... The loggers will not stand for a truck to sit for hours for the small bandmill operator without the equipment to unload the truck fast.

Danny makes a good point. This isn't an issue for me because about 1/4 of the logging trucks on the road here are self-loaders.

Buying from a mill as I do gives me a bit more clout with the drivers. When the log buyer asks a driver to drop off a load at my place, he'll pretty much agree. Even then, I try really hard to make it easy for the driver to get in and out quickly.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

4x4American

U wanna unload a truck fast do ya? Tell ya wat ya do bud, put down a series of 12x12's, and cut a ramp at both ends, and stagger them.  Have the trucker drive one side of the truck up on the timbers, and go pull the stakes on the high side, and take off the binders.  Then have him drive off the timbers and have him pull up onto the next set of timbers, lifting the other side of the truck, and dumping the logs.... :D :D   (just kidding)




BUT..
This just gave me an idea of how I can unload my gooseneck real quick like when the tractor won't start or is not around...and only would need one timber...dangit brain, this started out as a silly idea for a goof..and now I'm seriously considering it... smiley_idea hurt_smiley go_away dadgum you, Charlie! stupid_smiley say_what wheeliechair smiley_dunce
Boy, back in my day..

WDH

It is interesting to see the different cultures and how wood is moved.  There is definitely a number of ways to skin the cat.  Most of the big pine mills in the South for the Company that I worked for were buying 125 to 150 tractor trailer loads of logs a day.  The self loaders decrease the payload that a logger can load on a trailer, so they are not used.  Many truck had on-board scales to maximize the legal payload. 

It would sure help me if there were a few self-loading, self-unloading trucks in this area. but that is just not the culture.  The market hauling rates that loggers and truckers get paid here will not support the extra weight of self loaders. 

Alas, I have to scramble and scrape for logs.  Peter, count your blessings, Brother  :)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Kbeitz

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Brucer

Danny, just about all the commercial timber in BC is softwood, or very light hardwoods like Aspen. Even with a loader, the trucks are filled to the maximum height. Loads are typically 50' to 60' long.

Bet you couldn't do this with a hardwood log ;D.


Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

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