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Solar ???

Started by Darrel, March 02, 2016, 12:30:08 AM

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maple flats

I have solar and I started the expensive way. My first purchase was 2 solar panels of Ebay at 150 watts each. I then bought an inverter to convert to 240 volts ($279) , there was a problem, since I knew nothing about solar, the inverter I bought was strictly 240, not 120/240. It was the wrong type, was made for running a 240V motor only. Then I had to get a transformer to get back to 120 ($195) so I could use it. The inverter was very inefficient and the transformer compounded that. Then I needed a charge controller (CC). I bought one rated for the capacity I needed It was a cheap PWM (pulse With Modulation) ($65) unit, which is very inefficient. I was off grid so I needed batteries, here I did some homework and bought 4 Trojan 6V batteries, which are a fairly good line of solar batteries. I connected everything and I had solar power.
Within 3 months I discovered several errors in my choices, but I was hooked on solar. After those 3 months, I bought a good CC, a MPPT (maximum power point tracking) controller ($479), which gave me 97% efficiency rather than the 51% my 1st one gave. I added 4 more batteries so I then had a 48V bank in series rather than a 24V (I am still using that bank, 8 yrs later) and I bought a proper inverter, I got a Xantrex 6048 ($3400+ frt), rated for on grid as well off grid. I then decided to get more panels. Since my first panel purchase I had learned a little. The first ones were not UL approved and I needed UL panels if I was to ever go grid tied. I also found that I could buy UL panels at a cheaper price than the non UL panels. I had pd $420 for each 150 watt panel on the "bad" ones, but I could get 185 watt UL panels for $340 each (just 4 months later). I bought 4 and since I had simply made a 2x4 mount for those "bad" panels, I researched and got official aluminum ground mount racking. I installed the new panels and retired the non UL ones. A year later I added 4 more panels, in the same 185 watt. Then 2 yrs later I went to order 4 more but discovered those panels had been discontinued. I did a google search and after checking lots of vendors I only found 1 more panel. That is when I finally decided to go grid tied and jump in with both feet on my solar. nGoing grid tied meant I would qualify for Fed. and State tax rebates as well as a state program that paid up front a portion of the project based on how many watts I was adding. I also found that New York State does not allow self installs on anything that will be grid tied (or at least our local utility doesn't). IU had to get an approved solar installer. He came and checked what I had and worked up a quote for the install. He was to make a couple of very minor changes to what I had installed, then he was adding 22 new panels at 220 watts each, a new grid tied inverter and I was to run the underground wire, meter socket, entrance box and main disconnect. He then tied the new solar to the main box (which had to be a 225A box with a 200A main because I would have over rated the box too much). In the end, I still have 8 of the 185 watt panels, on a battery bank which also feeds the grid after the batteries are fully charged, plus 22 @ 220 watts which are net metered to the grid. In total I spent over $35,000 but between the State rebate, and State and Federal tax credits, my final cost is down to under $11,000. I would have done even better if I had gone grid tied from the start, because I could only claim what was purchased as I was going grid tied.
Do your homework first, rather than going the school of hard knocks.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

edkemper

WOW! I try to research everything to death before I start. However, $90K?

I think the hardest part of the process is understanding what you need. Many build far undersized and many build a personal system that could power a small city.

Solar panels are down to under $1 a watt. YouTube is your best friend when it comes to building your own system.

Personally, I wouldn't hire someone to do this. Years ago, yes. Now, there isn't much I can't do and isn't much you can find how-to videos. I'm also smart enough to buy good hardware to use. I will mount on the ground to help clean and to clear snow. I've been researching for a couple of years now and have been asking questions. I've also watched almost every how-to video on the subject.

Hire someone and it'll cost 2x or more. I don't know about anyone else, but if I can build and wire a house, I can install a solar system that will take care of me now and in the future.
Old Man

edkemper

Quote from: gww on March 24, 2016, 03:15:51 PMElectric where I live is only 11 cents a kwh.

Just to clarify, how much is the customer charge per month? Delivery charges? If you don't use one watt in a year, how much did you pay for all the extra charges? Taxes and such.

I wish I only paid the electricity charge.
Old Man

gww

ed
I have $20,000 in mine after the 30% federal rebate.  I only paid $0.92 per watt delivered.  I compleetly installed myself and still cut a few corners but over all followed the rules.  I know a guy who has double my wattage and didn't do the work hisself and has less then I do in his because he took advantage of amerens two dollar a watt rebate and went pure grid tie. 

I have a 5600 watt system that comes no where near covering my usage.

I don't believe hiring some one that it could be done as cheap as I did it.  Lots of little stuff that adds up to cost and just looking at panel prices is miss leading.

I did count all cost including some expermenting but believe I made up for that with a $5000 inverter system that I got for $1500.  Even inverters are not always clear on their pricing.  Many times you have to buy boots to cover wires and meters and you really need to know what you are really getting and what it will do.

I had lightning take out half of my inverter system and it was $500 for me to replace the guts.

All I am saying is that it is more intricate then you might think and if you go off grid it is even harder to cover americans average usage because you would really have to over build for the extreems.

I have my super production days but also have days in a row that I only make 2 kwhs all day.  Overcast days really knock down production.  I have made 30 kwh a day when I had a oppertunity load squeezing out every last drop but then it is harder to garrentee you are getting the battery totaly charged every seven or so days.

While all this is going on you will eventually have life issues of your battery and equiptment. 

The electric bill with charges is coming out about 11/15 cents per kwh. 

My system probly knocks off $20/30 of a $80 winter electric bill and in summer with air all bets are off.  Nothing says you need a freezer and two ice boxes and two tvs ect.  However most will want a well pump and coffee maker and microwave.

5600 watts is not a system to sneeze at and if you get that much installed with a good battery for $20000 you will have did well.  If I wanted to run all year with no grid it would take a $90,000 for me and I would have excess a lot of the time but would still strugle some of the time.  Winter before last was the cloudiest for several months that I have ever seen.  A person should really spend some time on the sites that I posted links too and run by those there what they plan to do. 

I do agree that it is mostly getting the right equipment and then installing it and if you are handy you can do it.  I did.
gww
PS going big would allow you to cut some cost also.  You would still only need one trench for you wires from the aray and small things like that. 

edkemper

GGW,

> went pure grid tie. 

Smile. Not a fan but I understand my way is not the only way. Grid tied system benefits the power company as well as you. An off grid system is only designed to benefit me.

> All I am saying is that it is more intricate then you might think and if you go off grid it is even harder to cover americans average usage because you would really have to over build for the extremes.

This is another problem. However, many of us that are going solar are not trying to live the city life with solar. Many of us, especially those that go off grid, just don't have all the electrical toys urban folk have. a 5600Watt system for some would allow saving a lot of that in batteries because they just don't use as much power as you do.

Many of us design a system that covers all their needs in the summer and 90% of their needs in Winter. using small generators to charge batteries 2-3 times a Winter.

> While all this is going on you will eventually have life issues of your battery and equipment.

Yah, I know the drill. However I also know a number of Prius Drivers that are still using 10+ yo batteries. I know a couple of people who have been off grid for more than a decade and still are using their original batteries. So, I do know the scare tactics. However, with almost no cost (after purchase and installation) for electricity, you'd be surprised how much I can sock away for more than the cost of replacements, when needed, is still less.

There has to be a change in priorities when you go off grid. That is not easy for many.

> The electric bill with charges is coming out about 11/15 cents per kwh.

That wasn't my question. How much are the yearly costs of everything you pay, over and above the cost of the power? That is a cost off gridders don't pay.

Can you imagine going to the gas station and paying to fill up, plus a cost just they are there, (here in Oregon) a charge for the guy pumping the gas and an extra charge for the guy at the register? Don't forget we also have a charge for the oil storage, in case you need a quart. Plus an extra cost to cover the cost to rebuild the gas station when needed.

> Nothing says you need a freezer and two ice boxes and two tvs ect.  However most will want a well pump and coffee maker and microwave.

I mean no disrespect, but, a thousand Watt coffee maker and a 1800Watt Microwave? When we have wood and fire? People that go off grid are usually not the kind of people that have to have everything instantly.

We're talking to entirely different systems.

> 5600 watts is not a system to sneeze at and if you get that much installed with a good battery for $20000 you will have did well.  If I wanted to run all year with no grid it would take a $90,000 for me and I would have excess a lot of the time but would still strugle some of the time.

I really do understand your point. I was there for many, many years.

I'll do my best to share what my system ends up costing. We both might be surprised.

> I do agree that it is mostly getting the right equipment and then installing it and if you are handy you can do it.  I did.

We have to disagree. If we are speaking of an off grid system, the most important part of the system is the conservation before building the system. Far cheaper to not build what you don't really need.

My friend, we are building entirely different systems. And properly sized and maintained battery banks last longer than you think.

My best as always.
Old Man

gww

Ed
QuoteThis is another problem. However, many of us that are going solar are not trying to live the city life with solar. Many of us, especially those that go off grid, just don't have all the electrical toys urban folk have. a 5600Watt system for some would allow saving a lot of that in batteries because they just don't use as much power as you do.

No disagreement.  I put about 300 watts at an rv on a creek.  All we run are some leds and a radio.  No air conditioning though.  The point is, if it is understood that this is what you have to do and you are willing, this is a great thing, but you do need to understand.

QuoteSo, I do know the scare tactics. However, with almost no cost (after purchase and installation) for electricity, you'd be surprised how much I can sock away for more than the cost of replacements, when needed, is still less.

But it is not less money if you have the grid.  I don't mind that my electric cost more then if I just bought it.  I paid cash and not all at once and so if I save $30 a month now then I save $30.  If I had saved the money I would have more money cause it will never be as cheap as buying from the grid unless prices go up.  The origional poster said that it would cost $10000 for the grid.  If you break it down to just money $10000 may be a better deal. 

Also I have only had my battery for going on four years and am shooting for 15 years min out of it.  I will know more later but even at that you have to make a lot of electric to cover $5000.

QuoteThat wasn't my question. How much are the yearly costs of everything you pay, over and above the cost of the power? That is a cost off gridders don't pay.

I answered your question.  If I take my total bill and devide it by the kwhs I used it will always be between 11/15 cents and mostly closer to $0.11.  No extra cost.  I believe ameren in my area is around $0.09 before the delivery charge and taxes and such.

QuoteCan you imagine going to the gas station and paying to fill up, plus a cost just they are there, (here in Oregon) a charge for the guy pumping the gas and an extra charge for the guy at the register? Don't forget we also have a charge for the oil storage, in case you need a quart. Plus an extra cost to cover the cost to rebuild the gas station when needed.

But the truth of the matter is as long as the cost of clean up is not counted and the goverment keeps helping the big industeries, the power from the grid is going to stay cheaper for the end user then you having a solar system battery and being your own electric company.

QuoteWe have to disagree. If we are speaking of an off grid system, the most important part of the system is the conservation before building the system. Far cheaper to not build what you don't really need.

We may only be dissareeing on one point.  I understand conservation.   The point can be made that you can conserve while on the grid and save even more than you can conserve and use solar.  Eleven cents a kwh is still cheaper then you can produce electric for if you have a battery even if it last a really long time. The only time this might not be true is if you have one of those electric companies that charge a minimum for you just to have the grid not counting what you are using.

I metioned earlier in this thread that I am not anti solar just like I don't look down on anyone that drives a car instead of just riding a bicycle.  I would have to look down on myself if I though it wasn't more then money as a reason to have solar.  I have a bit of an independant streak and that was a good enough reason for me to do it and it was fun to learn about things.

If you have access to the grid or can get it cheep enough you will not save money with off grid but that is not the only reason to do it and that could also change in the future and it is closer to being competitive now then it was in the past.

If there was some way to store the electric without a battery and the losses involved in charging and battery life issues.  Solar would be compeditive with the grid now.

I didn't do all this typing because I am not interested cause I am.  I would love to hear your figures and ideals as you go.
Good wishes
gww

Ljohnsaw

Edkemper and GWW,
This is a very interesting discussion and very timely.  I'm still a bit away (6-12 months) from actually installing a system.  I will be 100% off grid for my cabin.  No coffee pot, no microwave.  I will have a propane cooking range/stove and a propane tankless water heater.  My electrical "needs" amount to LED (12v) lighting and a 12 or 24v "RV" pump for dispensing water in the cabin (faucets and shower).  My well is direct solar power, no battery involved, pumping into a storage tank in the cabin.  It is capable of filling a 330 gallon tank (fire suppression tank) in 2 days.  I figure water usage of 50 to 100 gallons a day - with a full load of people there.  I will probably go with a 500+ gallon tank for domestic usage.

I haven't thought too long or hard on what I will need.  However, I MUST put in a fire sprinkler system.  The pump required must provide 32gpm @ 28psi.  My gut feeling is that will be about 2hp.  The county is also requiring me to install an auto start generator in the event my batteries are not fully charged (or a big enough bank).  I have to be able to run for 10 minutes.

So, again, my gut feeling is to only have enough battery for the domestic use to carry through cloudy periods.  Let the generator handle the fire suppression (that will likely never happen).  Since my roof ridge runs north/south, I figure a couple of panels (300+ watt each) on each slope should cover my needs.  So I will have 600+/- watts of generation in the morning and afternoon with something a bit higher mid-day when they all see some sun.  I would probably want to run a bit higher voltage to lower the current.  What do you suggest? 24, 36 or 48v?

Comments?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

gww

Ljohn
couple of things.  Direct pumping and no battery is good.  In northern climates freezing makes above ground water storage a little harder.

I like the higher voltages due to wire size and less voltage drop.  If you already have an rv wired for lower voltages it makes it a bit more of a mute point.  For a cabin and you running the wires, I don't know so much.   A two horse motor becomes a bit of a problem though.  If it was 120 volt at 10 amps that is like 100 amps from the battery not counting start up being maby lots more.  I am a firm believer in good inverters and doing everything at 120/240 volts.  There is some convertion losses by not going twelve volts but it is easier to get over the counter stuff that works on it and you can use 12/14 guage wire everywhere.  Wire cost add up to alot when you run a bunch of it. 

The higher voltages from the panels also make your charge controllers go further.  If you add panels later you have room but you also have to add panels in series.  In other words I run 90 volts from my panels to my Charge controller.  It takes 4 panels to get 90 volts.  If I ever want more panels, I will have to add 4 at a time.  I hope that is clear.  I posted a couple of links to solar forums.  My view is before I spent any money on stuff I would put it out to those forums and let them give feed back.  You may have it perfect but then again someone might see something that will help. 

The funny thing about tosters and big motors is they really may not use much electric but cause you to have enough umf in your battery to get them going.  This will make your battery bank a bit bigger even if you don't use that much electric.  If the battery is bigger then the solar will be more cause to properly charge a big battery you will need enough amps to get it boiling (sound wise anyway) to get a good chemichal reaction.

It sounds like you are going to try and run the 2 horse on the generator and not the solar.  That will help battery wise.  I ran the little rv on the creek on two car batteries for about 5 years and had about a 24 amp draw as the max and it did ok but was not used every day.  It all comes down to math and realistic ideal of what you are using and when.  If you have the leds and other electric things it would be worth getting a killowatt meter and seeing what they really use and adding it all up.  Then you would be able to see what you really need for the rest of the stuff.
Cheers
gww

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: gww on April 18, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
Ljohn
couple of things.  Direct pumping and no battery is good.  In northern climates freezing makes above ground water storage a little harder.
Actually, I'm using a LCB (Linear Current Booster) that converts the voltage to current to run the pump at a lower speed but with enough amps so it doesn't overheat.  That saves me from having to have another battery bank or running very large wire from my cabin.  I am not storing the water out in the open.  It will be stored in my basement and the ground heat will keep it from freezing.
Quote from: gww on April 18, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
I like the higher voltages due to wire size and less voltage drop.  If you already have an rv wired for lower voltages it makes it a bit more of a mute point.  For a cabin and you running the wires, I don't know so much.   A two horse motor becomes a bit of a problem though.  If it was 120 volt at 10 amps that is like 100 amps from the battery not counting start up being maby lots more.  I am a firm believer in good inverters and doing everything at 120/240 volts.  There is some convertion losses by not going twelve volts but it is easier to get over the counter stuff that works on it and you can use 12/14 guage wire everywhere.  Wire cost add up to alot when you run a bunch of it. 
No, I'm not running an RV.  I'm going to buy an RV pump but haven't decided if I want 12 or 24v.  Probably 24 being a little more efficient.
Quote from: gww on April 18, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
The higher voltages from the panels also make your charge controllers go further.  If you add panels later you have room but you also have to add panels in series.  In other words I run 90 volts from my panels to my Charge controller.  It takes 4 panels to get 90 volts.  If I ever want more panels, I will have to add 4 at a time.  I hope that is clear.  I posted a couple of links to solar forums.  My view is before I spent any money on stuff I would put it out to those forums and let them give feed back.  You may have it perfect but then again someone might see something that will help. 
Yes, I understand.
Quote from: gww on April 18, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
The funny thing about tosters and big motors is they really may not use much electric but cause you to have enough umf in your battery to get them going.  This will make your battery bank a bit bigger even if you don't use that much electric.  If the battery is bigger then the solar will be more cause to properly charge a big battery you will need enough amps to get it boiling (sound wise anyway) to get a good chemichal reaction.
Well, I disagree with you a bit.  At toaster or coffee pot (induction heating) and microwaves (1000w) draw a lot of power.  But I don't need them anyhow.
Quote from: gww on April 18, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
It sounds like you are going to try and run the 2 horse on the generator and not the solar.  That will help battery wise.  I ran the little rv on the creek on two car batteries for about 5 years and had about a 24 amp draw as the max and it did ok but was not used every day.  It all comes down to math and realistic ideal of what you are using and when.  If you have the leds and other electric things it would be worth getting a killowatt meter and seeing what they really use and adding it all up.  Then you would be able to see what you really need for the rest of the stuff.
Cheers
gww
The LED lights I have to play with are rated at 0.012w each and I plan to make multi-light fixtures with 6 or 8 of them.  I will also use LED tape lights for counter lights or indirect on top of the beams.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

gww

ljohn
QuoteWell, I disagree with you a bit.  At toaster or coffee pot (induction heating) and microwaves (1000w) draw a lot of power.  But I don't need them anyhow.

I am just saying that when my well pump kicks on it is 2000 watts but it will usually run less then a minute and the pressure tank will be filled.  In the big picture it is the amp draw all at once on the battery and not the 100 watts or less that it actually used.  I have a 48 volt system and see a small light flicker when my well pump kicks on.  On a 48 volt 800 amp hour battery it is more the wire size being big enough to handle the amps cause the battery recovers almost immediatly due to it really not being that much power that was actually used.

The outback 80 amp charge controller cost about $500 and will handle about 1200 watts at 12 volt and will run about 4000 watts worth of panels at 48 volts for the battery bank.

I also like the higher voltages cause if you need that much power you can run the batteries in series and I believe this helps cut down on battery charging inconsitancies.

If you don't need much power, then you don't need it.  If you find you need more power then you thought, it sucks to have to get rid of stuff to buy differrent stuff.  If you do 24 volt battery some get by by adding an extra panel with out going through the charge controller as lot of the 300 watt panels have around a 30 volt output which isn't too far out of line from what you would be charging at.  I have heard that 12 volt inverters and such are cheeper then the higher voltage stuff.

It took me a couple of years of thinking and then a couple of months of actually doing to get mine installed.

Lots of little things that can be done cheaper if thought about.  I bought a prewired sub panel  with a manual transfer switch for about $470 and could have did it much cheaper with big box store stuff once I knew what I was doing so it pays to pay attention if you are not made of money.

That was one of the few mistakes I made but over all it went well enough and I did well enough that I kept the mistakes pretty low. 

I am sure you know most of this just by reading your responce but figure I would put it out there just incase it helps with your thinking prossess.  I hope to be helping more then confusing.
Good luck
gww

Ljohnsaw

GWW,
Thanks.

I should clarify if it isn't completely clear in what I wrote.  My well pump is 24vdc and I'm running it with the LCB and direct solar.  I will be using the RV style pump for the cabin water pressure with a 20 gallon pressure tank. 

I added two 1-quart pressure tanks to my RV and it made a world of difference.  I hated the on-off-on-off when you ran the faucet.  Now it will run for about 30 seconds before the pump will kick on.

Except for the RV pump, my current draw will be really low.  And that pump will be really close to the battery bank.  I will use 12g wire for the lights but with them pulling a fraction of an amp, I don't expect to see any sort of voltage drop in the runs that will be 30 or 40' in length.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

gww

John
I get the pumps.  I just sorta wrote the above to kinda put into perspective that with solar each part of the system affects the rest of the decisions.

It sounds like you know what you are needing.   

When I was young my grandma only had hand pumps to draw water so you will be in paradise with your system.  In the house there was only a cistren and during the drought of summer we sometimes had to truck water from the fire station to it.  The actual wells were down by the barn. I never noticed it being bad when I was young.  May not have took as many baths then and didn't waste the bath water with just one person when you had to heat it on the stove but it wasn't all bad, went swimming a lot more in the summer.  Always carried a bar of soap.  You are going to be living good with that set up.
Hope it goes well for you.
gww

OlJarhead

1.  The panels DO NOT have to match the batteries.  Maybe 20 years ago, but not today.  MPPT controllers adjust the voltage coming in from the solar array to match the batteries and utilize more power / are more efficient.

2.  For an RV you requirements are probably a lot less than a $90k home setup.  My system (off-grid cabin) was about $5k-$6k without the genny.  Needs more solar still but works well and like you I use 6v GCB's.

3.  Shop around to places like sunelec.com and altsolar etc etc.  You can get 300w panels for under $300 today (I was going to pick up 4 more for my setup but bought a mill instead).
2016 LT40HD26 and Mahindra 5010 W/FEL WM Hundred Thousand BF Club Member

Klunker

Decided to post this as I have been reading this post and I find the costs of systems to be overstated.
We are building new home. 2800sq ft living space with basement. Very enery eff. all electric house.
20K btu/hr is est heating requirement. Heating to be supplied by masonry heater primarily with air source heat pump as backup. Air source heat pump DHW heat. All electric home. Just me and the wife.
We are adding a solar system with battery backup. Originally we wanted to be behind the meter but recently our power co. put an end to that. So we now have to be on net metering.
System specs.
30) 330 watt panels = 9.9kw
8) 6v batieries with automated hydration. 19kw storage cap.
1) inverter
2) 80 amp charge controllers.
cost for system $36.7 k installed
rebates/discounts $13.4k
total out of pocket for me $23.3k
other facts
.14/kw for electric + approx $18/mo for "fees"
.04/kw paid by power co. for sold power
panels to be on workshop approx 75 ft from house.
Batteries and all other equipment to be located in basement.
cost to run power from grid approx 1000ft to house = 8K
cost for additional 8 batteries $3.8k
I could of gone off grid with 3x times the battery cap. for the cost of tying to the grid.
we are not borrowing money for system, we are putting cash in "asset" instead of risking money with no guaranteed return in current enviroment.
Optional system was for "off grid" 48) panels for 15.8kw with 16) batteries at the cost of $53.7K, discounts/rebates of $18.5k for a out of pocket cost of $35.2k.
Just for comparison purposes.

John Mc

Klunker -  Your system costs are similar to what I was seeing when I was working with a Solar installer here in VT. Unless there was something unusual going on to bump up the installed costs, we were seeing about $2.60/watt installed costs (after federal incentives) for a grid-tied system without battery backup. This was 2 or 3 years ago Prices have come down since then, but I'm no longer involved, so can't really say what current pricing is. I'm guessing the drop in prices over the last few years would cover the cost of some batteries for the backup system.

Looks like your state or utility may have better up front incentives than VT (VT residential incentives for PV have basically disappeared). We do have a pretty good deal on the net metering rates: we get paid a few cents a kW for every kW generated, plus any net excess sold to the grid is sold at the residential rate.

We were a small operation, with low overhead, which kept our costs down, but our low volume meant we did not get as good a deal on PV modules as some of the big guys. The two factors tended to offset each other, so we found we were very competitive on most jobs (we focused on residential and small business, typically 3 to 15 kW systems. Our largest was 50 kW. We had no interest in the multi-megawatt systems that are popping up all over the place around here).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

BTW, Klunker, 20K BTU/hr for a 2800 sq ft house is pretty impressive. Is that your expected peak load?  How cold does it get in your area?

At any rate, you must have an incredibly well sealed and insulated house.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Klunker

yes, thats peak load.
8" neopor sip walls with and an additional 1" of foam on the outside.
So what about R35-38 walls and R60 ceiling, R24 on basement walls and under basement floor.
Triple pane Fiberglas windows R5.5.
we get about a week or two of subzero weather usually during the winter, I'd say the ave. temps in Jan . are around 10-20 deg F.

maple flats

The system I posted about back on April, 17 of 2016 is at my sugarhouse. I now have added another system at my home. There I am completely isolated from the grid (the solar, not the home). I put in 1710 watts of panels (6@285W each). The power enters the home thru a basement wall. In there I have an MPPT charge controller, an 3524 Outback inverter and the energy is stored in a 24V Rolls battery bank at 683 AH. I started back in June, but didn't finish in time. When I started NY State had not yet adopted the 2014 NEC. I thought I was finished on Oct. 18, 2016. However I then discovered that NY had adopted the 2014 NEC effective 10/3/16. As such, my final inspectiohn then required me to conform to the new code, specifically relating to "Rapid Shut Down" requirements. A good idea, but one that cost me $2500 additional. All solar systems, both grid tied (they had to since the 2011 NEC) and off grid required a "rapid Shut down" feature. In case of any emergency, fire or other, first responders must have a single point shutdown control to shut off all power in the system, it must break power from the panels, and the charge controller, the inverter and the battery bank. Those controls are far pricier that the simple shut off switch required under previous NEC codes (but are much safer for firemen and other first responders). In my situation I needed 4 points that shut down the entire system, one at the location of my electric grid meter, one within 10' of the solar panels, one within 10' of where the power enters the home and 1 near the panel board where the charge controller, inverter and close to where the battery bank is.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

gimpy

Darrell,

PM me if you are interested. I recently went to a Solar presentation there in town put on by individuals. A few people doing it and a few of us just starting research. Really good folks in your neighborhood. I'm in K-Falls & Chiloquin so we're close.

If I can help get you to people who might be able to help that have a good handshake.
Gimpy old man
Lucky to have a great wife
John Deere 210LE tractor w/Gannon Box

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