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Valve bank... what happened?

Started by timberlinetree, March 01, 2016, 05:48:12 AM

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timberlinetree

It was really cold and the leaver got sticky and then stuck. It wouldn't  release  until I  killed the engine.  50 degrees and still sticking ruled out ice. Brought it to the shop and the spool is bent? The fluid looked good to. What would cause this?

  

 
The worst part about removing this was going to the store all dirty and asking for a pen,rubber bands and baggies. The lady looked at me like I  was up to something.
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Logger RK

I'm not sure what would've bent the spool yet,but that picture reminds of when my Son took his valve bank off his Hahn Harvester & marked all the hose/ports. But putting back together had forgot to mark which side was number 1 8)

Farmerjw

Besides marking it, you did an excellent thing by taking a picture of it! 
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kiko

I use colored zip ties to mark hose location

bushmechanic

I bought a letter and number stamp set that I use because sometimes there are manifolds or valves with wicked amounts of hoses, and when stamped you can't wipe or tear the marks off.

tacks Y

Maybe dirt or metal filling stuck in the small groves of spool?

oldseabee

Was the valve mounted with 4 bolts or 3? 4 bolt mount can put the valve in a bind by tying the valve to any twisting of the frame mount. best way to mount the valve is to find the three mounting points that contact the frame firmly then leave the 4th bolt or nut off or at least loose.
The other thing is the through bolts holding the valve sections together have to be torqued the same or the valve body can warp over time, then extreme cold can tighten up tolerances to the point of interference can put a spool in a bind.

47sawdust

Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

timberlinetree

Thank you sir! That makes sense. Only two bolts out of three were in there and was thinking I need another. With the heavy rain and then sub zero temps water might have gotten under it and froze causing it to bend. It is fixed and installing to day 8)
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AlexHart

I was just browsing the forum, clicked on this thread and then winced when I saw I recognized who and what I was looking at.

I hope its not a big deal and turns out OK but remember if I didn't give it to you (I think I did) I've got a whole entire parts valve bank... but I think I gave it to you.   Whatever broke you should be able to swap in a new section as a reasonable worst case.   

Good luck on it.  Let us know how you make out.

Alex 

timberlinetree

Hi Alex, the forwarder has been great! We cant thank you enuff!We brought him the valves but they didn't fit but he fixed it. Hope you and  Jenny and the gang are doing well!
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timberlinetree

 

  this is the valve gang that is giving use trouble. Some how the problem keeps coming back. This has got me stumped!

1 after heavy rain and real cold weather the swing valve started getting sticky, then stuck. Brought to shop,bent spool,fixed.

2 installed, was working fine ( not under pressure),started motor and got stuck within seconds. Back at shop,bent spool,used parts valve assemblely with driffrent spool, working again.

3 installed, moved two loads and stuck again?not shure if bent,but feels like it.

The fluid looks good
Found a pinched hose for that valve
Only have it bolted down w 2 bolts.

It was fine until that first day,could a pinched hose cause enough pressure to bend a spool or are the cylinders causing problems?any one else have  this problem.Any help would be REALLY appreciated!
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snowstorm

you cant swap spools from different valve sections. they are a matched fit. is the oil hot or cold when this happens? how dose the sealing surface of the spool look? the bore of the valve section? any pitting??

timberlinetree

We used spare valve/spool assembly. It looked fine and worked good for 2 loads and was hot when stuck again. Going to ck filter( cut open if it has that type) but seems some how this spool valve keeps getting bent
Could 3000 psi bend a spool? Thought a hose would blow instead? Thanks
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oldseabee

Usually a swing circuit will have a cushion valve in each each direction some where, the purpose is absorb the shock load when the swing comes to a sudden stop, if one of them isn't working right that shock can go to the valve section, there should be port reliefs in the valve section but may not be big enough to take the full shock of a swing sudden stop with a load.

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: oldseabee on March 24, 2016, 10:42:08 AM
Usually a swing circuit will have a cushion valve in each each direction some where, the purpose is absorb the shock load when the swing comes to a sudden stop, if one of them isn't working right that shock can go to the valve section, there should be port reliefs in the valve section but may not be big enough to take the full shock of a swing sudden stop with a load.

That makes sense - which valve is getting damaged?  On my little backhoe, the swing cylinders have little pop-off relief valves that are set to about 1,500psi.  I thought that was quite low but now I understand.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

oldseabee

The cushion valves can be mounted anywhere but quite often the will be built into the base of the swing cylinders so the shock oil goes to the other end of the cylinder and never gets to the main valve

Ljohnsaw

John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

timberlinetree

We tore it apart and found these jamed in between the ports. Must have been missed while rebuilding. My have been why this valve was put on the shelf to begin with. 

   I plan on changing the hose from the pump to valve since its a little worn and not sure if more pics are inside. I could not find a cartridge filter,but think one might be in the tank. 

  I will service that and new fluid. Are filters in tanks? Is there a way to check the swing cylinders load pressure? The first time this happened the spool was bent? Thank you for the help.
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OntarioAl

Timberlinetree
You are going to have to play Sherlock Holmes and find out where that metal came from that jammed the spool.
Al
Al Raman

timberlinetree

Thank you sir. I'm thinking that it must have been from a previous pump problem? I'm going to replace the pump to value hose because it shows wear and may have some pics in there. I was thinking about adding a filter cartridge also. Any other ideas/ precautions I should take? Thanks
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OntarioAl

Timberlinetree
That shrapnel may have been carried into the valve bank from one of your swing cylinders.
My reason for throwing this out for your consideration is that you indicated that this valve was the only one giving you problems.
Al
Al Raman

Logger RK

Last winter my Sons Hahn bucket cyl piston went out. Some of the pieces did get stuck in the valve. Cleaned it out and put new piston and seals. Hasn't been a problem since.

RHP Logging

That looks a lot like my franklin.  If it is the filter is in the tank.  Also maybe your pump is coming apart and it pushed the shrapnel up into the valve bank.  Usually its fine metal, but who knows?  May be worth a look.
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timberlinetree

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teakwood

How on earth can that happen? Anybody knows? clogged filters?
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MattR

Filters clogged,   pressure spike for whatever reason (relief problem?),   extremely cold  weather making oil very, very thick and improper warm up time.   

But now you can do some investigating with them. Continue splitting them or cut them in half. Pull out the paper and see what type of debris is in there.  Some small  metal flakes are normal . An extreme amount of small metal flakes, or big chunks, is obviously not . Also if you see brass or other colored metals , you can start to narrow down  where it came from . We have done this often.

It's hard to tell from the picture , but I don't see anything extreme.
Matt

Holmes

Is your fluid murky, whitish color? If so maybe the water in the oil froze and blew the filters apart?  That does look like what happens to frozen pipes.  Just a thought
Think like a farmer.

snowstorm


MattR

Water will, but boy you have to have such a high concentration of it that it's crazy. To have a concentration that high , you would've had problems long before it froze. Such as pumps going because of lack of lubrication , etc. We have had many systems that in some form or another have gotten contaminated with water . To the point they were near white , and we have never had them freeze so as to cause damage like this. If this was the case other things like aluminum housings and such would have broken as well . At least in my opinion .
Matt

Holmes

Are filters on the low/ no pressure side of the hydraulic system? Was there any damage to the canisters that hold the filters, expanded or deformed? If not then it probably was not freezing because with that much movement the canisters show have deformed also. So  if it is the low pressure side how can you blow out 2 filters?  Just asking
Think like a farmer.

MattR

Just a question:  are these filters open on both ends or closed on one end? If they are closed on one end the possibility could be there someone install them wrong .  Or installed the wrong filters. Just a thought . I've seen crazier things done by accident.
Matt

timberlinetree

The filters are open on both ends with a bypass valve. Two pumps on the machine, same resivor. The filter are in the tank and on return lines. Sereens are on the suction side in the tank. Lot of stuff in there( metal,packing ,paint chips) and seems for some time. Hydraulics work good until it starts getting hot.I m getting real nervous about pump failure. Could a pressure release valve be getting stuck and cause this?
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RHP Logging

What year is your machine?  The pump that runs the loader on mine is driven off the trans.  The pump on the side of the engine runs the blade/steering.  A new Prince pump can be had for 350 bucks.  Pull whichever pump it is and take it apart.  Not too big of a deal.
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MattR

Quote from: timberlinetree on April 05, 2016, 05:14:31 AM
The filters are open on both ends with a bypass valve. Two pumps on the machine, same resivor. The filter are in the tank and on return lines. Sereens are on the suction side in the tank. Lot of stuff in there( metal,packing ,paint chips) and seems for some time. Hydraulics work good until it starts getting hot.I m getting real nervous about pump failure. Could a pressure release valve be getting stuck and cause this?
There are two ways that relief valves fail . One is that they open too early due to a weak spring or improper adjustment. This would result in a low pressure and a weak operating system .

The other way they fail is that they don't open soon enough due to something caught in it , or improper adjustment . This would cause extra high pressures .

You also stated that the hydraulics get abnormally hot . This is usually an indication of a bypass . It can be in many places , but most likely in the pump or in an improperly adjusted relief .

I would say your first step is to contact your dealer and find out what the pressures are supposed to be set at . Get a gauge and the proper fittings and take a pressure test at the pump and on the valve bank . Make sure you get a gauge that is rated high enough for what your system supplies . I can't tell you what that is , you need to speak with your parts dealer . There are many good ones out there . I am not familiar with the specifications on your machine .

It sounds complicated but it isn't at all on an older machine like that . You must do this before you start throwing money at guesses , such as buying new pumps or other components . It's the first step .

Indeed you may have to buy a new pump , but I would certainly test first . As someone above-stated it doesn't sound as though it's a very pricey pump to change out . But getting a good gauge is something you'll be happy to have in your toolbox anyhow .
Matt

Neilo

From what MattR is saying, 2000psi. It is stamped on the relief valve.

RHP Logging

Is this machine a Franklin?  If so i have a guy who has seen and done it all.  If it wasn't for him i dont know where id be.  Id happily give you his number.
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timberlinetree

Thanks so much for the help! 87 Franklin 132. The pumps are on tranny and engine and $350 will help me sleep better( was thinking the worst $1000 or more). Its starting to seem that maybe something got stuck in the pressure relief valve? Hydraulic stuff seemed real complicated, thanks for helping to make it some what simple. I think I found a testport/valve gizmo attached to a line but not sure. I plan to work on this on Thursday or Friday. Thanks again for the help!
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timberlinetree

Dose this look like a pressure valve and do I check the pressure at this plug and(sorry for all the questions)can I take this apart to clean/inspect?

 
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bill m

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MattR

Yes that's a relief valve sticking out of the side of the block . The big pipe plug above it which looks to be 1/2 or 3/4 inch , is not where you want to tap into for your pressure test . Usually it is 1/4 or 3/8 inch .  If need be you can bush down from that plug , but there should be an easier location than that .

I see two plugs on the left-hand side , I would assume one of those but I can't be sure . It can't be that difficult to get a hold of a Franklin parts or service dealer to find out the proper tap location .

And yes you can pull that relief valve out and inspect it , clean it with some starting fluid etc. . You can put it in a vice , and push on the bottom part of it with a punch or a screwdriver or something just to ensure that it moves . Under the outer cap there will be an Allen screw with a jam nut. That is for adjusting the pressures . Don't monkey with that until you get a gauge hooked to the system , and know what pressures you are looking for .

There should also be a port on your valve bank somewhere . Usually off of the end . You can tap into there , but depending on where you tap into you will have to hold a function to get a pressure . You'll have to hold a function until a cylinder is bottomed out and then hold the lever down . That is  when a relief valve is designed to kick in . So it doesn't blow a hose or something else in the system . That is when you tell what a relief is set at.

Some systems have multiple relief valves , because they are designed to send different pressures to different functions . For instance a main boom cylinder pressure may be higher than a bucket cylinder pressure . I can't say this is the case with your machine , but it is with many . The one coming right off the pump will be the main relief which dictates the pressure heading to the valve bank . There may be individual reliefs on the valve bank so as to distribute different pressures to different functions . Again I don't know, but something to look for .
Matt

schmalts

Quote from: OntarioAl on March 25, 2016, 09:35:03 AM
Timberlinetree
You are going to have to play Sherlock Holmes and find out where that metal came from that jammed the spool.
Al
yes, and look at the filter of the system to see what may have made it past the valves. If it's a cartridge or screw-on filter cut it open and see what's all in it. Hope there's not much in there.

timberlinetree

Thank you for the help. I think the pressure valve for the boom is on the valve bank. The one in the pic is for stearing/blade. Is a tee on the line going to a swing cylinder a good place to ck psi? Only see one big plug on the valve bank? The filters blew so a lot of the stuff ended in the tank( looks like years of stuff) and think the bypass on the filters where cloged and that's why they blew? I didn't get as much done since this truck had to get back on the road.

  

  2 axle swap
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oldseabee

Probably swing cylinder would have a cushion valve some where in the circuit that would drop off pressure at or near the end of stroke to prevent slamming into the swing stops on the frame. Just a thought

timberlinetree

I think the spring cushion valve is in the valve body but not sure. Think I'm going to tee into the line to swing cylinder and ck what's going on with psi gauge. Hope things stop breaking, I need a break!
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AlexHart

After an absence I just caught up on this thread.    I hope you get it figured out and I wish I could help with some magic answer/instructions but your probably (way) ahead of me at this point as far as knowledge of the system. 

Good luck with it.   

Logger RK

Not to change the subject but,I have a C5 with a grapple. Since we put it on the orbit motor was not very good shape. We put a good orbit motor on it last summer and after a skid or two the face plate cracked on it. It does have reliefs on that spool of the valve. There #1750. Does anyone know if when the spool is centered do those reliefs work? I believe the good motor is a carlyn 103 maybe? Do I need less psi reliefs? Or do I need inline reliefs? Because when pulling skids the motor still has to turn.  I could put it on a valve with a float position I guess? We put the wore out motor back on to it keep working.

oldseabee

Those port reliefs on the spool are mainly to protect the machine from shock loads when the valve is in neutral, like a tree falling on the grapple arch or a rear wheel dropping into a hole which would put a big shock load into the arch or boom if you have one, sometimes you want a lower pressure in one circuit but not the main relief then the port reliefs are set to the lower pressure for that circuit, so they act as main reliefs for that circuit as well as protection from shock loads.

Polish Hammer

if the oil getting is getting warm durring opertion? how warm do you have a gauge or a thermo gun to see how warm? i believe your issue is that u have a bad pump, its worn out and your getting excessive pressure on the return side due to the oil bypassing inside the pump ( case drain ) i would take the pump off and take it apart or at least pull the case drain line and put a funtion over relief and see how much oil your getting on the case drain side.
Cat 322c fmhw with waratah 622, Komatsu PC200-7 FM with waratah 622b, Timberjack 450b grapple, timberjack 660c grapple, Tigercat 630c grapple, John Deere 853j Buncher, echo saws

timberlinetree

Back up and running so far, but haven't run to much.
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RHP Logging

Buckin in the woods

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