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Need help with older style fuse box in a 1950s home

Started by Ox, February 26, 2016, 09:27:54 PM

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Ox

My mother lives in a ranch style house made in the 50s.  It has a fuse box with 4, 15 amp "cat's eye" fuses (the round, screw in type) and two large black squares above that with pull handles on them.  I'm assuming these are the "main" fuses?  What are these called?

My main question is this:  When I want to run a generator in a power outage, I flip the main breaker on the power pole in my yard, isolating myself from the grid, then backfeed through my welder plug in the shop, which is connected to my house therefore energizing all circuits.  The 240V is split up to each side of the breaker box, giving me 120 and 240.  The house doesn't know anything had changed.  If I pull those two black blocks out of Ma's fuse box, isolating her from the grid, and backfeed with a generator through her 240V dryer plug, will it work the same as at my house?  Will the 240V backfeed be split up to each leg so she'd have 120 and 240 and her house wouldn't know the difference?

The Reason:  I can't go and check for myself because my stepfather *WILL NOT* allow me to help my mother get setup for a power outage.  It got to the point last time that I almost lost my $&!) and lashed out irrationally.  He has Napoleon Sydrome and an inferiority complex.  He is absolutely incapable of doing this stuff himself, yet won't let someone who knows a little something take care of things (does this sound slightly insane to anyone else?!?).  The reason I need to ask is I've never messed around with these older fuse boxes, although I'm familiar with them and have seen them before and changed fuses in them.  I remember an old camp my uncle had that had pennies, I think, in there in place of fuses.  It's a wonder it never burned down.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

sawguy21

To do it safely and legally you need some type of switch that cannot allow the utility and standby power to feed the system at the same time. A simple knife switch will accomplish this. If somebody forgets to flip off that main breaker with the welder running anyone working on the supposedly dead line could get a very nasty surprise and things will get quite unpleasant if the utility power comes back on with the welder running. The welder won't like it and there will be a real risk of fire.
The best plan would be a manual transfer switch with it's own receptacle for the welder. Talk to a licensed electrician.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

WV Sawmiller

Ox,

   I'm no electrician and sounds like you are way ahead of me on that. Only thing I might add is I think the black fuses you are talking about are called cartridge fuses if you need to look for more.

   When I was a teenager my brother and I were putting up a chain link fence (family business with slave labor - us) and kids in the house across the road from us came out running "Fire, Fire". We dropped everything and ran over but by the time we got there the lady had thrown a pan of water on the wall outlet that was on fire. The fire department arrived soon and gave them a ticket. Lady (daughter of our customer) came over complaining "They said the fire was caused because we put a penny behind the fuse. That is the same thing they said about that other little house we used to live in. You know, the one that burned down." Guess some people never learn.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

WH_Conley

What Sawguy21  said. However if those black boxes are pulled you are off grid.
Bill

sandsawmill14

if you get caught doing that here your in alot of trouble with out a manual transfer switch or at least pulling the meter :) but there was a lineman got hurt real bad several years ago because of a gen back feeding into grid your little 240v genny will put whatever voltage is on the high line if it is fed backward. i dont know what that is up there but here it is 7200v/14400v and when back fed through the transformer your gen will produce tha voltage but no amps but if the power is out or line down (as was the case im talking about) with no load it has full voltage and is a major arc flash burn / shock hazard so be sure its done safely how ever you decide :)  some plaes will allow you to pull the meter as the disconnect which works fine but most have stopped that since they went to the digital meter that they can read from the office :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

47sawdust

I agree with the previous post.By doing something electrically sketchy you are putting your Mom at risk as well as any utility people.Sounds like a bad situation that will only get worse especially given the personalities involved.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

21incher

Never expect someone that is not familiar with electrical circuits to folow instructions for something like that. Have a transfer switch installed that is fool proof.  :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

Ox

Thanks for the replies and thoughts, guys. 
Cartridge fuses.  That's the words I couldn't get out.
It's ironic talking about backfeeding the grid with a generator.  I made this mistake once.  ONCE.  I simply forgot to flip off the main on my power pole so that I was disconnected from the grid.  When I threw the switch in my shop to start backfeeding to my house I momentarily tried to power up the entire grid which was down.  Notice I said momentarily.  It killed my generator *instantly*.  I realized what happened as soon as my engine died as if it had seized up.  I don't understand how anyone can backfeed the entire grid like that.  All the different houses on this same line all waiting for power and when my little 5K generator tried to feed them it just quit running faster than all get out.  So when they say to be careful not to feed the grid with a generator I don't understand how they can!

Does anyone know if when I pull the cartridge fuses the fuse box will act like a modern breaker box when I flip off the main breaker at the top when backfeeding with a generator?  Will both sides (or legs) be fed?  I'm kind of assuming so, since 240V needs two hot legs, each at 120V.  It stands to reason when you backfeed 240V it'll reverse back into two legs of 120V.

Concerning pulling the meter:  I used to do this years ago to disconnect from the grid.  NYSEG (New York State Electric and Gas) locked me out and shut off my power.  For 28 days.  That's right, 28 days.  Claimed I was meter tampering.  Of course, I wasn't and I explained this to them.  It didn't matter.  I was forced to run my home built Lister generator for that whole time.  Had to hire a licensed electrician to change my old meter over to an "updated" one and install a "main breaker box".  If I'da known then what I know now they'da had a lawsuit.  Two small children in the house and all, middle of winter.  I'm totally different now than I was then.  Then I was "too nice" and kept my mouth shut.  Today - kinda the opposite.  It ended up costing me $1100 to get "updated" with the right stuff and to pay the thieving electrician just to have power for Christmas morning.

I'm just basically trying to learn about the older technology at this point.  I have no intention of messing around down there with that little Napoleon breathing down my butt (I'm tall and big and he's short and small) to hook up a generator option for them.  I told Ma if there's an outage and she's uncomfortable, call me and I'd come get her and bring her up here.  He can stay there and "take care of things" like I was told last time.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

OntarioAl

Ox
Good plan go and get your Mom. Avoid messing with older electrical systems and peoples egos,
Al
Al Raman

Hilltop366

Ok so you can't run the entire neighbourhood with your generator, but what if the line was broke or line fuse tripped before the rest of the neighbourhood? I would think you could power up a few hundred feet of unloaded line.

I would not mind spending a few hundred to do it right and eliminate the risk of killing someone!

Another safe option is to get some properly sized extension chords.

GAB

Quote from: 21incher on February 27, 2016, 07:58:34 AM
Never expect someone that is not familiar with electrical circuits to folow instructions for something like that. Have a transfer switch installed that is fool proof.  :)

"fool proof"
Very key words
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

limbwood

When you shut off breaker you are only unhooking the positive side not the neutral side so it still can backfeed into main line, they want you to use a disconect box to unhook all wires. pulling those fuses would do the same as turning off breaker.

Autocar

It sounds to me your looking at a 100 amp. fuse box. The main is on the left side and your range/ dryer is on the right. Thing to remember the range side is hooked on the main buss so back feed will happen if you don't have a main disconnect at the meter base.
Bill

sandhills

Electricity, short of heights, is the one thing that bothers me the most.  My dad always says "you can't see it, smell it, or hear it coming", I know around here if you get caught back feeding into the grid, even if no one is hurt or killed you'll be less a generator, they make it hot and fry it, can't say I blame them (I'm pretty sure they can press charges too).  I know enough about it I could probably ruff in the wiring for a house or building, that's pretty much where my limited knowledge ends, I do believe I'd take the advice above.

Autocar

From my understanding power plants can only generate 13,008 volts Y then they take step up transformers and step it up to any voltage they want for there transmission lines 69 thousand and 138 / 245 / 345 / 765 thousand and a million volts. On rainny days we would back feed 240 volts into a Y trasformer a Y system needs a neautrl wire/ ground to operate and it would back feed 7,200 volts and with out a grounded system the tank would get hot and a blue arc would start across the cement floor till it found a crack then would go to ground. Made a electric chair one time with a coil of coper wire on a wooden chair set the blue arc would go down the legs of the chair and would go across the floor till it found a crack with moisture. Thirty years being a electrical lineman Ive seen my share of fire balls I must admitt there pretty cool !
Bill

WV Sawmiller

   A few years ago during the hurricanes that hit Florida I understand an out of state lineman was working to help restore power and someone in the community had incorrectly hooked up a small genset and backfed current through a transformer and it killed the lineman. Until I heard that I guess I always thought a transformer was a step down only and never thought about the fact it works in reverse to increase voltage going the other way. Many power company employees hate the small gensets installed by homeowners because of this.

   I have a whole house genset with an ATS but it has built in safety features such that it cannot backfeed power up the line.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Ox

In a power outage and Ma's unhappy or tired of dealing with it, she'll come up here to my place.  This is the simplest and easiest considering everything.  The little stepfather's ego is harder for me to handle than hooking up a backup generator.  Thanks for all your inputs.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Holmes

 The 2 black cartridges, one is usually for the main the second one was usually for the stove.  The should have different amp ratings.  That is the way it was at my folks camp with a 60 amp panel and screw in fuses.
Think like a farmer.

r.man

 I have never seen a main in my area that couldn't be turned off by an external means similar to either a big rocker switch or a big toggle switch. A hinged door is then opened to access the fuses. What you are describing sounds like a small fuse panel with two larger pull outs, one for a stove and another for a dryer etc. It would be possible to wire one of those pull outs to act as a main but I don't think that has ever been legal in my jurisdiction, not sure about yours. Easy enough to check, with the grid power on turn on lights and try pulling each of the larger pull outs. If everything goes off when you pull one out you have found your main.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

Fundyheather

same as he said.  There must be a big rocker switch somewhere, or don't even think about this.  You are planning to disconnect her hot water tank at the moment.  The rocker switch you are looking for has a big cartrige, I'm thinking 6" long and thick through as...

It's big enough the early style grow-ops could break into the meter outside and that 100 amp cartrige would match into the slots.
     

Ox

If I was "allowed" to check things out it wouldn't be hard for me.  A simple multi-meter would tell me everything I need to know.  The little man with big problems (my long time stepfather, who isn't letting me continue on) is the reason I'm asking these questions.  At this point it's for my own personal knowledge.  It's something I would like to learn.  Breaker boxes are easy for me because it's what I'm used to.  These older fuse boxes aren't familiar to me.  I remember seeing one of the two large black cartridges labeled "range".  I'm assuming this is for the non existent electric cook stove.  It's now natural gas.  The water heater and furnace are also natural gas.

This all being said, there may be, and should be, a main switch or breaker for the main feed somewhere, whether it's on the side of the house or on the pole.  I didn't get that far.  I had to leave before something bad happened to the "man" in question.  >:(

I simply can't understand a person who won't let someone help, who knows a thing or two and can figure things out.  He has no clue, no plan, no nothing.  Never even thought about running through a power outage scenario to test anything out.  This is borderline insane, no?  Frustration factor of about a 9.9.  At factor 10 I'd probably be sitting in jail right now.  He doesn't even understand how close I was to losing my stuff.  After all, this is the "man" who's supposed to be taking care of my mother, right?  And when he isn't and I try to take care of her, he stands right in my way hollering "I'll take care of it!" but doesn't and can't.  Oh my, my my.  ::)

Sorry to vent to you guys, but I'm grateful for a place to be able to do so.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Kbeitz

A little off topic but I do electrical work on the side.
I just changed out an old circuit breaker box.
The name of the company that made it is ( The circuit Breaker Box)
It's gotta be one of the first of the first ever made.
Very confusing. Each breaker had hookup wires on both sides of each breaker.
Any breaker could be used for 220 or 110 volts.
So when putting in the new box it was very hard to know if the wire going
into the home was being used as 220 or 110.
It's so different that I kept the box for an antique.
It's impossible to google because typing in ( The circuit Breaker Box)
brings in 14,000 hits. In all my life I've never see anything like this.


I did fine this just now.



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

low_48

Ox, Since you don't know the components or workings of his fuse box, and your asking for advice on a forestry group, I'd say the Father-in-law is just being cautious. I wouldn't let you start working on my house either!

Holmes

The one in my folks camp 1959 ish . The pull out fuse next to the range fuse is the MAIN fuse for the house and was 60 amp and a 60 amp fuse box.
Think like a farmer.

r.man

Holmes I expect that was an adapted setup, maybe not strictly illegal then but rarely done. I have seen the same done with a small breaker panel with no built in main breaker. Instead of putting the main wires onto the lugs provided you backfeed a largish breaker at one end of the panel.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

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