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Author Topic: Detroit 353 loud knock  (Read 7466 times)

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Offline Plankton

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Detroit 353 loud knock
« on: February 26, 2016, 12:43:08 pm »
Well finally got some good skidding weather and the engine blew up on the first turn.

Always started instantly, no smoke except regular diesel smoke when she's pulling up a good hill. Doesn't burn oil, doesn't leak oil.

I pulled into the landing unhitched my chokers and when I throttled up to winch them out of the logs it sputtered and started knocking loudly. More like a clack. Shut it off instantly, visually checked outside of the engine nothing leaking oil or any thing out of the ordinary. Oil level is good. Antifreeze is good. Started it up for a second same loud clacking so I shut it off.

Never had an engine do anything like this so entirely out of my element here. What would cause a sound like that? Just all of the sudden? Previous owner used ether alot I think, on really cold mornings I do a small squirt in the intake then crank. But mostly don't use it.

Also if anyone knows of a good detroit mechanic in western mass let me know.

Thanks, Daniel

Offline lumberjack48

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 03:49:40 pm »
  Pull the valve cover off, you might have something broke on the rack.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Offline madmari

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 04:08:19 pm »
Might have broken a rocker arm, which will make a "clackety" sound and would make it sputter. Not a huge deal if that's it. If it wasn't under a heavy load, it's probably nothing major as long as your oil and coolant are clean. Hope for the best..
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Offline coxy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2016, 04:48:26 pm »
it may have broke a valve and its hammering on top of the piston they are good for that

Offline loggah

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2016, 05:08:33 pm »
I had the top of a piston break one time right around top ring grove! the engine ran with a loud rapping sound up top,nothing in oil or antifreeze.
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Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 05:23:46 pm »
could be an injector too but whatever it is you will have to start with the valve cover and just work your way down and hope you find it before you get to the oil pan ;D  good luck with it maybe it wont be to bad :)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline jwilly3879

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 05:28:17 pm »
Could also be the blower. My hard the bolts on the blower drive back out and the blower went out of time. Awful noises.

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 05:42:04 pm »
Thanks alot for the replies guys. When it happened I had no idea what to do and before I pull anything apart I like to at least know what to look for/where to look for it. I'll pull the valve cover off tommorow and start from there I guess.

Called RCS diesel and they have a completely rebuilt 353 if I bring them my engine they'll give me it for 4800. Almost as much as I paid for my skidder but it comes with a warranty and I know it would work.

I'll try to fix it myself first if I mess it up and get the new one I have nothing to lose!


Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2016, 05:47:09 pm »
unless you missed a rod sticking out of the block or something i wouldnt think it would be that bad :)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline grassfed

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2016, 06:13:14 pm »
Take a mechanic's stethoscope if you have one or long pry bar/screwdriver with a plastic handle or even an old wooden ax handle and put one end against the motor and touch the other end to your ear. Try this on the valve cover, near the middle of the motor under the head and down by the oil pan. You can put an earplug in your other ear. You should be able to tell where the clack is loudest and that will help you determine what to do next.
Mike

Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2016, 06:15:21 pm »
i wouldnt run it very long to do that test and at an idle ;)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline bushmechanic

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 09:16:49 pm »
  Usually if it drops a valve it just goes dead on that cylinder unless the valve sticks into the piston then that might make a racket. When you pull the valve cover make sure all the valves look like they are in there respective places. Did you have any wet weather lately before you started it? You may have got water down in it and bent a connecting rod. Also an over fueling injector will give you a knock, notice any more smoke out of it than usual? 

Offline ehp

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2016, 10:13:28 pm »
Hope its not this but I had a 4-53 break the crank and that gave a loud knock

Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 11:23:15 pm »
eph  did the engine vibrate like it was out of balance when the crank broke ??? i know the v8 diesels will raise more **** than 3 haints when they break but never broke one in an inline engine :)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline madmari

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2016, 06:30:41 am »
I had a similar noise and used the wooden stick technique that grassfed speaks of. I was in a panic that i broke a piston, rings or a major component. The culprit? A loose exhaust clamp coming off the manifold.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

Offline Wayne64SS

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2016, 07:19:30 am »
I'm just finishing up rebuilding a 353 now. We may have to swap some parts when you get here (governor depending on type and flywheel) but thats all easy stuff. I kinda bought this on a whim for no good reason other than the love of detroits and then got it home to find it dropped 3 valves in cyl #2. So now its been torn right apart and completely rebuilt with a reconditioned head. Still got the old one if you wanna see some carnage. Anyway I can beat the hell out of $4800. Let me know if interested.

Offline jocco

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2016, 09:45:50 am »
Many have given you good ideas: I will go a little further ::) Drain the oil and look for metal or aluminum,bronze etc (you can send a sample out and have it tested) If you find any of this well mark the clock with "time of death" :o Next pull the valve cover and look for what others said (valve spring, rocker, cam roller etc.) THEN START HER TAKE LARGE SCREW DRIVER PUSH DOWN ON THE INJECTOR  SPRING to cut that cylinder out of firing that will tell you which one, if any is dead. This is similar to pulling a plug wire on a distributor!! ;D You may have other problems but start here.
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Offline grassfed

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2016, 10:49:26 am »
Another old mechanic trick to check to check for dead cylinders is to spit on your finger and then tap the exhaust manifold at each cylinder exit. The spit will linger on the cold dead cylinder and sizzle on the good ones. The new way of doing this is to use an infrared thermometer "gun".
Mike

Offline ehp

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2016, 11:37:24 am »
yes it shock but not as bad as you would think, I was not really thinking broken crank but when I got into the motor it sure was .

Offline jocco

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2016, 11:53:50 am »
I have seen many engines still run with a broken crank ::) Some seemed ok at idle :o



yes it shock but not as bad as you would think, I was not really thinking broken crank but when I got into the motor it sure was .
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Offline OntarioAl

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2016, 12:37:14 pm »
I know it is a sick feeling to the stomach when all of a sudden a smooth running engine develops a troubling noise.
The scenario is as follows;
1/ You pulled a load into the landing and left it idling (no problem)
2/ You then hit the throttle to winch in and "It sputtered and starting making a load clacking" sounds like it maybe a fuel starvation problem.
The other posts have given you a lot of good advice but It would not hurt to pull your filters and check for water the mild weather may have melted ice and associated "crud" in your fuel tank.
My thoughts
Al
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Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2016, 02:26:15 pm »
Update from the field, sure is nice having service up here.

My dad met me up here this morning to look at it with me we pulled the valve cover off everything looked perfect in there, bared the engine over and listened/watched. Nothing out of the ordinary. Tried cranking the starter, cranked slow then normal speed then tried to fire then siezed.

So we commenced taking roll cage and other panels off in preperation for pulling the engine. Going to get as far as I can today and hopefully pull it tommorow morningish.

Well go from there.

Any thoughts on what happened if it now is siezed? Oil pump gears stripped out maybe?

Thanks for all the responses so far, helping me understand more about all this. Internal engine work is brand new to me.

Offline tantoy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2016, 02:28:32 pm »
blower lobes?
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Offline jocco

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2016, 03:21:55 pm »
I am sorry  :( probably with out dis assembly you will never know. Your block, head other parts may be ok. The hard part is this; is it cheaper to rebuild? Do you have lots of work and is a new motor is the answer? Can you find a good used one??? NOW IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER ;D  A friend had a 440 running good, working daily, did some minor work to it than a load bang and the block split in half!! I had one (motor was well worn out) but running working ok. Going down a skid trail shut it off cruised a vain of wood (so much wood so little time) Got on hit the starter there was a loud noise equal to a bomb being dropped on me!!! After seeing I was still alive it would turn over but no go. Results broken crank also destroyed the center bearing web in block.
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Offline jocco

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2016, 03:24:27 pm »
Oh check to see you don't have a starter or flywheel issue also bar it over in both direction before pulling motor.
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Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2016, 04:05:11 pm »
Tried barring both directions, only moves from noon to one then I hit more resistance then I can move with a breaker bar and all my weight.

Ya I'm in the nearing the end of a large job I was hoping to get finished before mud season hits hard. I could have moved a lot of wood in the time I've been down already going to go for the fastest option to get up and going again.

Completly rebuilt warrantied engine 40 minutes away is very tempting.

Offline jwilly3879

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2016, 04:06:32 pm »
Check the blower! When the bolt backed out of mine it got into the timing gears.

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2016, 04:08:36 pm »
Worst part is I just spent a lot of time resealing the oil pan a few days ago and I have around 10 hrs on the fresh oil.

Offline Red Good

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2016, 04:22:06 pm »
Resealing the pan with what ?
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Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2016, 04:52:51 pm »
Bolts are tight on blower pulled the outer cover and the screen was half gone fins look a little worn. Pulled the bolts on front and the long ones facing the radiator but could not figure out how to take the blower off...

Offline coxy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2016, 07:27:18 pm »
 maybe something in the bell housing/clutch may have come apart  :-\ :-\ :-\

Offline coxy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2016, 07:28:26 pm »
maybe something in the bell housing/clutch may have come apart  :-\ :-\ :-\
sorry for got to read your last post  :) :)

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2016, 10:39:32 pm »
I'm half willing to bet you lost a timing gear on the backend, and a piece is bound up. My 353 in my forwarder died the exact same way with the same symptoms. 4800 isn't bad money with a warranty but find out what it covers and for how long.

Offline millcreek40

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2016, 11:07:27 pm »
Red good   I was wondering the same thing. I have seen more than one motor toasted because of to much silicon   Plugs up the oil pump.  Just a thought. Tear it apart you will find out shortly. Good luck hopefully nothing serious
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Offline tantoy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2016, 01:58:05 am »
Red good   I was wondering the same thing. I have seen more than one motor toasted because of to much silicon   Plugs up the oil pump.  Just a thought. Tear it apart you will find out shortly. Good luck hopefully nothing serious
oil pump screen is so big on that engine I just don't see that, but when you (assume something) :D
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Offline David-L

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2016, 06:45:38 am »
Raymonds Repair in Bernardston, Mass are good Detroit people. My buddys 230 sounds so smooth after they did a rebuild. Been two years and that motor is still oil free. I would find a warm place and tear it down. How about Rick Shaw in Munson,Mass. hes' also got years of detroit. PM me and I will give you his # and raymonds.
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Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2016, 08:01:16 am »
I used right stuff gasket maker for the oil pan. I doubt that's the issue I used a thin bead and was very careful installing. I've pulled an oil pan off one of my farmalls that had inches of sludge grime etc In it and that engine runs fine.

Got the engine 90% prepped for pulling yesterday didn't have enough buckets for the fluids and didn't have bunks etc for an engine stand. Going to get it out today and seperat the torque converter to see what I'm working with.

I don't have confidence to rebuild this engine by myself in a good timeframe. If I wasn't in the middle of a job I would do it myself to learn how but...

Offline Ed_K

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2016, 09:25:15 am »
 X2 on Raymonds Repair, I have their # if you need it. I would also weight the option on the offer of the rebuilt motor, how long can you wait for the rebuild to be up and cutting wood.
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Offline kiko

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2016, 01:18:09 pm »
I have not had to be a Detroit man in a long, long time thank goodness.  However since you can spin the engine somewhat I am willing to bet the engine is hydro locked with fuel,  the blower will also lock a detroit down,  or a dropped valve.  Ignore me if I am repeating any previous post.

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2016, 11:54:17 pm »
i'd love to know what it did.

Offline Logger RK

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2016, 06:32:40 am »
I'm guessing a dropped valve. Which if so,pulling the head might of been a first step. But as they say what opinions are like 8)

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2016, 05:45:51 pm »
Engines in the back of my truck right now. I couldnt get my friend out to crane it out of the skidder any earlier unfortunatly. Called some repair places but there a month out or so plus the week to rebuild. Going to drop it off at RCS in the morning and the new one should be in the skidder wednesday.

Crossing my fingers to be pulling logs thursday.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions on what's broken. When it first blew I felt like doing it my self but I'm going to go the easy and expensive way for the sake of time. I could have pulled 4k dollars worth of logs in the time it's been down already.

If I wasn't behind on a job I'd love to tear it apart and learn how to do that for next time.

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2016, 05:52:04 pm »



Squatin pretty good



Offline coxy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2016, 08:45:22 pm »
is that ford going to have the guts to drag around a gm part  :D :D                             don't worry I have a 96 f250  8) 8) 8)

Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #44 on: February 29, 2016, 08:58:03 pm »
is that ford going to have the guts to drag around a gm part  :D :D                             don't worry I have a 96 f250  8) 8) 8)
:D :D :D  :D                            im driving a 99 or 2000 (i forget) f250 with a v10 all i'll say is it will pull ::)

plankton sounds like you have it figured out :)  dont worry about the money you will never miss it next year and will still be pulling wood ;)  i think we have bought 5 crate engines over the years and never regretted it. we have built several engines but what it boils down to is down time. miss an extra weeks work and you already paid for the engine twice :o
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Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #45 on: February 29, 2016, 09:06:43 pm »
Haha oh yeah my old powerstroke is gloating a little pulling a broken Jimmy!

330k miles so much blowby she makes a cloud when idling but I put all the goodies on her I can turn it up to around 350 hp and have some fun!

Offline jocco

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2016, 08:02:37 am »
What do you have for a skidder? AT first I though it was a jack.


Haha oh yeah my old powerstroke is gloating a little pulling a broken Jimmy!

330k miles so much blowby she makes a cloud when idling but I put all the goodies on her I can turn it up to around 350 hp and have some fun!
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Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2016, 06:50:34 pm »
Clark 664

Offline coxy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2016, 07:24:06 pm »
Haha oh yeah my old powerstroke is gloating a little pulling a broken Jimmy!

330k miles so much blowby she makes a cloud when idling but I put all the goodies on her I can turn it up to around 350 hp and have some fun!
I got ya beat over 400k don't use any oil I change it every 10k and it maybe down a 1/2 or a quart depending on how much I tow she is no beauty queen but runs great   are they going to tell you what happened to your old motor

Offline timberlinetree

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2016, 06:06:29 am »
Hope you get up and running soon! F150 200k 4.6 motor 5000# trailer up a really steep hill about 1500' floored and only 2 qts of oil in there and still runs and sounds good. Don't just ck for oil in a ford but for a dipstick( witch I am :D)to. Mine broke off.
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

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Offline sandsawmill14

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2016, 07:03:59 am »
i like chevys the best but i drive whats cheap ;D
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Offline grassfed

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2016, 10:27:47 am »
Ok so you dropped it off at RCS as a core, are they going to tell you what broke? I'm curious.
Mike

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2016, 11:01:39 am »
I forgot to ask when I was dropping it off but I'm going to see if they can call me when they find out. I'm pretty curious myself. Going to be funny when it's something minor haha

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2016, 04:01:37 pm »
Spoke with the shop today, motor dropped 3 valves hammered a pretty good hole in a piston. Apparently there were peices of the valves sitting on top of the pistons and a peice in the exhaust. Bent a rod and the head was in bad shape aswell.

Two much different with the rebuilt engine they had so they did a complete rebuild on mine for the same price. Replaced/rebuilt pretty much everything but the crank which was in good shape. Apparently the engine wasn't on its last legs but most of the parts were worn pretty good.

Tuning and painting now, should be ready for pickup tommorow. :)

Offline s grinder

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2016, 05:36:34 pm »
Plankton,You did the right thing,just pull it out, get it fixed,reinstall,and get back in the woods and make some money,rather that cry about it for a week,asking questions,not listening to anybody and taking pictures.Just do it and [ get er done].

Offline Logger RK

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2016, 10:01:11 pm »
I bought a rebuilt 453 last spring & by the time I was done swapping everything over I would've been better off  rebuilding the one I had. I wasn't to satisfied with there's much.  >:( But live & learn.

Offline rockwall

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2016, 07:33:06 am »
Sounds like a you did the right thing. It's good to know there are good mechanics around that will help you out. Now to hear that Detroit scream, music to the ears!

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2016, 07:44:18 pm »
Ended up getting home with the motor after dark on friday, between a morning parts and fluids run and an afternoon parts run to pick up stuff they had to order me and my dad still got it all in except for the fuel return line (needed a fitting) and the muffler and some panels.

We also replaced most of the bolts for the engine and the roll cage.

The shop had the oil filter pointing down so I had to pull that off and turn it sideways, they gave me a fresh gasket though.

I took a lot of extra time to scrape 5 gals of Grease out of the engine bay and putting loom around all the wiring but it was worth it.

Here's some photos of the shiny new engine!








Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2016, 07:47:37 pm »
Also does anybody know the correct break in procedure for a new detroit, shop gave me oil change intervals to start but I forgot ask them anything about break in.

I'm going to call them on Monday see what they have to say but figured a few of you guys have been in my shoes before as well.

Thanks again for all the help and advice, this forum is a great resource!

Offline Ed_K

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2016, 07:56:31 pm »
 I was told to run mine the way I ran it before rebuild. I changed oil at 50-150-250 then I changed at 200 like before.
Ed K

Offline jd540b

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2016, 08:54:08 pm »
Just run it hard-limit time it just sits and idles.

Offline David-L

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2016, 09:54:34 pm »
I have had good luck running mono-grade oil in 2 stroke Detroits. 30wt in the colder months and 40wt in the warmer months. CF-2 rating is the Detroit spec with 1.0 or lower ash content. I ran Mobil 1240 ( 40wt ) and it was a great oil. The multi grades don't have the stand up to a 2 stroke motor and can prematurely lessen the motor life. Some will say thats bull, but going by the book isn't a bad thing IMO. Good luck. Rotella makes those straight grades also.
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Offline grassfed

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2016, 07:09:14 am »
If the shop did the tune up and run in, you want to run it with about 80% load and limit idle time like others said.  If it starts to lug with 5 trees then hitch 4, if it lugs with 10 trees then hitch 8 and so on; this will keep it pulling at around 80% load and that is where diesels like to run. 
Mike

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2016, 10:33:22 am »
plankton how did the drive ring look? run in, no lugging, no idleing for long. spin her up when loaded.

Offline coxy

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2016, 11:29:17 am »
it may have broke a valve and its hammering on top of the piston they are good for that
8) 8) 8) :D :D :D run it like you stole it  don't lug it

Offline Logger RK

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2016, 05:57:25 am »
I was told to run it pretty hard & not to baby it. So the rings seat good.

Offline Plankton

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2016, 02:19:52 pm »
Cool, so sounds like break in is pretty much run normally keeping an eye on idling and overloading.

Been running it today, installed a hourmeter for kicks so I can keep track of oil changes better. Very happy with the power seems like twice that of my old engine!

One thing is it appears to not be cooling as well as before. Unless my gauge got messed up in the shuffle, the temp will climb up to 190 and hover there. Before it would hit 190 then slowly drop to 150 ir so then climb and repeat etc.

Does this sound like typical air in the system? I bled it thoroughly I think, no more air when I squeeze the hose or idling on a slope..

I'm not going to worry about it for now unless it goes over that.

Treeslayer: I unfortunatly didn't get to see the fiber gear because I dropped the motor off as one unit and got it back the same way. Knowing my luck that's the next thing to go haha

Offline millcreek40

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2016, 05:01:03 pm »
If it has a 190 thermostat it should stay at 190
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Offline Ed_K

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Re: Detroit 353 loud knock
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2016, 07:22:41 pm »
 Mine stays right at 190 winter or summer.
Ed K