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First glue up...advice?

Started by bkaimwood, February 24, 2016, 08:29:09 PM

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bkaimwood

So I'm getting ready to do my first glue up, a 3 foot wide, 4 foot long, live edge walnut slab top. I was initially going to glue this up with tightbond iii...I also ordered west system epoxy for filling and stabilizing defects...while talking to the rep prior to ordering, using it for glue ups was brought up...I never knew it could be used for that!!! The rep said you don't want tight joints as with glue, light clamp pressure, so it just starts to squeeze out...it needs enough in there to make a solid bond...so I commented about needing a poor quality joint to achieve enough in there to make the proper bond? He didn't really know what to say. I'm considering the epoxy glue up, because it sounds much more forgiving for a beginner like myself. Glue ups with glue are confusing from my research... Some say clamps every 6", some say 16"... Critical even clamping pressure... And so on...I feel I need to adapt my torque wrench to the clamp to ensure this...am I over thinking and analyzing as usual? Won't my joint be more noticeable with a poor fitting epoxy glue joint? Thoughts and advice are appreciated... Pics to follow...thank you all!!!
bk

Den-Den

If the walnut is dry and stable, titebond will be fine.  If the walnut is still moving, no glue made will make a decent joint.  Epoxy will work for this type of joint but it is not necessarily better and is more trouble IMO.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

yukon cornelius

I have done several over the last few years. I use tightbond 2. I add plenty of glue so it squeezes out everywhere and clamp wherever I can. I nearly always use live edge so you don't always get to choose has far apart the clamps are. I dry fit to check for a good square joint. In a 3x 4 I would probably only use 2-3 clamps per side. I only use pipe clamps for glueups. I recently started tongue and grooving my glueups. I like the extra glue surface. You can do it! It is not as hard as you think.
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

Ianab

The thing with epoxy is that it can "gap fill" and still be structurally sound. And in fact you don't want it clamped super tight as there may not be enough epoxy create a solid bond.

I would get your pieces jointed and sitting together and see how good the join looks. If you have it near perfect, then go with the glue and just clamp it up firmly. As long as you have a good surface match and keep "some" pressure on, you should get a good bond.

If it's a less than prefect fit, like you can see light though the gap, you can probably recover it with epoxy, although it's generally more fussing about to use that.

I don't think the number and spacing of clamps is so critical on larger glue up. Thinner boards can easily warp away from the join if they aren't held in place properly. A 3ft wide slab of wood isn't going to forced into line, or suddenly spring away.  But getting a perfect edge on a large piece like that can be a challenge.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

mesquite buckeye

I wouldn't worry too much about it if you get a decent fit on your surfaces the glue can fill some. Are you using a jointer? If not, and maybe even with I would consider adding dowels or biscuits. You can even true them up with a hand plane if you have the patience. If the joints close and don't have gaps along the length you have enough clamps. Just keep your eyes open as you move along. With patience you can make it even with primitive tools.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Kbeitz

From my experience if they want a small gap for the epoxy you are going to have a very tough time
getting the stuff to stay in the crack. I would think your going to need to tape up the bottom to
keep it from running out. My choice would be the glue. The epoxy will run out the smallest little hole.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

bkaimwood

Thank you gentleman. I straightlined my slabs with an old, beat up, tired track saw, with an old, beat up, tired track...so it cuts pretty straight, kind of clean, but not like a new festool one does, so the joint definitely needs attention for a glue up, not so much for an epoxy up. I am kind of a perfectionist, mostly when it comes to stuff like this, so I guess I'm more concerned about a tight barely noticeable glue joint, and I don't think epoxy is the best for this...I thought it might make it easier on me, but also sounds like it is more mess and harder with little or no benefit. I have an electric hand plane, and had gone over it already, the block sanded it. I just light checked it, and its pretty tight 80% of the joint. So I think with it being relatively good already, I will work to get close to 100%, and at this point, from all aspects, will glue it. Keep the input and advice coming please, there's still time to save a fella from screwing  anything up :)!! I just poured my second layer of fill in some defects, so its going to have to hang out for a couple hours before the next one. Hopefully I can have this glued up tomorrow. Thank again for all you help guys...
bk

Clevelander

I have found the best way to make a virtually invisible joint with slabs is to take both slabs and slide them together. Secure them each FIRMLY to the table. Set your track saw so that the center of the blade is in the center of the joint. Make sure you have a sharp blade to eliminate saw wander and rip the two pieces simultaneously. Free up the pieces and they should slide together perfectly. I recommend using Titebond and three bar clamps for that size piece, two on the bottom 8"+- from the end and one on top in the middle. When you are good and tight with your clamps lay a straight edge across the top because overtightening will cause the piece to peak or dip in the middle so be careful of that. If book matching is the goal make sure to consider that before the glue is on. When satisfied with the match-up place a pencil line across the joint and match the pencil line when positioning to clamp. Make sure to put glue on both edges. Would love to see it when it's done!
Live your truth and your truth will find you

Greyhound

Definitely use the Titetbond 3 for the edge joint and epoxy for filling defects like cracks, loose knots, ingrown bark.  Have you ever tried a spring joint for edge joints?  It will have a little gap to let light through in the middle until you clamp it shut.  It is absolutely the strongest, longest lasting joint and the best way to get an invisible glue line.  Biscuits or dowels can help with alignment during glue up.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/26796/spring-joints-an-edge-glue-ups-best-friend/page/all

woodworker9

For best results, and a gap free (read this to say, nearly invisible) glue line, you want the two adjoining boards to be jointed.  If you don't have access to a jointer, you can do it by hand with a jointer or jack plane.  Best way is to fold the two boards like a book, with the 2 edges that will be glued together, facing up.  Clamp it in your vise, and see how evenly matched they are to each other.  Using a plane, you can swipe off the high spots of uneven areas left by your "track saw", and test the joint.  Keep working at it with hand plane, sand paper, or sharpened cereal spoon until you get the joint to look good.  Clamps will close a small gap, say 1/16" or less, depending on how thick the boards are.  The thicker they are (2" and up), the tighter you want the joint to be for it to look good.

Epoxy is for filling mistakes and character areas of unevenness, like knots and such, in wood.  Not for glue ups.  Tightbond is all I've used for edge gluing straight joints for 25 years.  It works great, and the bond is stronger than the wood itself.

A thin coat of glue on each board edge is all you need.  No need to have tremendous squeeze out.  Whatever squeezes out of the joint is wasted glue.  I teach my students to put just enough glue on a joint so that you have absolutely no squeeze out from a mortise and tenon joint, and a small bead of squeeze out from edge gluing, like boards.  Any more just ads more work in cleanup.

Good luck.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

bkaimwood

WOW....outstanding, information packed posts fellas, I can't thank you enough. REALLY good stuff...just took a crash course in epoxy fills for slab defects...long story short, I got my delivery today, 2 days late...and it was not a well cared for package, lots of smashed and dented cans to say the least... Long story short, my resin pump had a hairline crack in it, and was not measuring the correct ratio, so I ended up with a mess to say the least, cleaning stuff up, retaping, on the phone and emailing companies, washing out wrong ratio epoxy, trying to salvage this project... Yeah, just what a beginner needs, complications from product issues from the start... But I hope I have it salvaged, and everything straightened out... All cleaned up, retaped, manual mux, repoured...only time will tell...
bk

bkaimwood

some pics, finally...first pic starts with the slab I decided to work with...would rather have done a bookmatch, but figured  this would be a great crash coarse...glue up, eyeballing stuff, fixing defects, and all the things that have surrounded this project...

  

  

  

 
bk

Greyhound

Looks great!  Should be a great project.  Make sure to show us some picts of the final product.

mesquite buckeye

If you lay some epoxy on top of that spot that looks punky, it soaks in pretty good and solidifies it.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Kbeitz

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on February 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
If you lay some epoxy on top of that spot that looks punky, it soaks in pretty good and solidifies it.

There is special stuff made for boats to soak in rotten wood to make it harder than just wood alone.
It's called AeroMarine 300

Another one is PC Products Rotted Wood Repair Kit
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

bkaimwood

Well, the glue up went well, clamps off, handling, working it, all looks good... Thanks for the advice on treating punky wood, as I have some spalted maple that will need some treatment... Was going to start a post when the time comes...I have broadened my epoxy treatment to do such in this project.. I've had complications, but think I have it under control now... Updated pics soon..
bk

CHARLIE

One method I've used with success to joint long boards is to use my router and a long, carbide Pattern bit.  Just clamp a straightedge on top as a template and shave off a minimal amount to achieve a nice edge for glue up.
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

bkaimwood

Nice, Charlie... Alot of good techniques here...I thought about the one mentioned... Now that I know someone else did too, and uses it, will consider it in the future... I read up on the springboard one too...interesting... I think I should practice more for that one, but good theory... Sounds good for short tops but may be too much when I graduate to long stuff...8-12'+? I used a modified "clevelender"...used my beat, wore out track saw and blade, then dressed the joint by some hand sanding...
bk

yukon cornelius

 

   some times your only option is to be very creative. This is a sewing desk. I am a one man show today so getting things lined up an fitted gets interesting.

 
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

bkaimwood

Nice tops, Yukon...I see you compromising to make things work, as I do the same... Never did a corner like that, but I'm sure I will... Thanks for the pics if beautiful work, and ideas...
bk

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