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Red Pine

Started by BOWHUNTERZ7, February 19, 2016, 04:01:19 PM

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BOWHUNTERZ7

I have 102 acres, there are around 40 acres of red pine on where they stripped back in the 70's.   I think I should have them all cut off the property as there is no value in timber or to the wildlife. The rest of the property is a mix of oak, cherry, maple but was logged 6 or 7 years ago by the previous owner. I want to go through and remove all the "junk" trees as a timber stand improvement,  birch, quaking aspen, ash, some of the maple.  Im not sure if any loggers would be interested in doing this as it would be mostly pulpwood, and located in western PA.




beenthere

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Interesting dilemma.

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BOWHUNTERZ7

Those are the smallest of the pines, but as you can see there is no value to wildlife at this point. Should I just clear cut them all if I can find someone to do this?

CJennings

I wouldn't call them totally worthless for wildlife. They will provide some cover and protection in the winter. One issue with some wildlife species as forest land is more and more subdivided is a lack of cover connecting the various forested habitat (fragmentation in other words). Many animals are shy of crossing large open areas, so even if there's little food for say a deer or fisher in a red pine stand, they are comfortable passing through it to get to where they want to be. What do you want to regenerate if you cut the pine and how (planting or not)? Keep in mind anything you plant is going to take years to mature and will not provide immediate value to the wildlife. Okay I take that back, the deer may browse your plantings. Not planting may result in a stand of raspberries instead of trees in some instances. I understand that portions of PA had problems for years with regeneration because of deer browsing.

What is the average DBH running? I'd try to mature the red pine enough to at least offset the cost of what you do in the future. And instead of clearcutting the whole property, work gaps randomly dispersed throughout the property into the matrix of the red pine for planting your desired species, using a shelterwood as appropriate for the shade tolerant species to reduce problems with intolerants until they are established well enough to remove the overstory over them. That would leave the wildlife cover between the regenerating portions for now, and allow some of that red pine to be a bit more profitable to harvest in the future (expanding those gaps as desired).

I know you mentioned birch as a junk species but I wouldn't include yellow birch with the other birches in that category.


BOWHUNTERZ7

Only bad thing about the red pine is that its starting to get a form of fungus according to the state forester. So its not going to be there that much longer anyways.

CJennings

Do you recall the specific fungus the forester mentioned? There is an issue here with red pine scale (invasive insect) and I know it's in eastern PA as well. So it may work its way your way. So I would plan for the eventual replacement of that stand of red pine, I'm just not sure clearcutting will be the answer. What species do you want in their place?

Thinning would have to be done very lightly and gradually because of the density of that stand. The excessive competition for resources is stressing those trees but they don't look very wind firm to me. Still I'm hesitant to suggest clearing them all out at once. Have you looked into the costs of planting the whole red pine stand in your preferred species? It won't be cheap. And if you have a high deer population that poses another issue. Not insurmountable but still an issue to be addressed. Pine pulp is a low value product so if they were going to last long enough to become saw size it would be helpful to you financially.

BOWHUNTERZ7

I can't remember the specific fungus but I will find out

BOWHUNTERZ7

 Here is a pic I took yesterday of a spot that I cut about 3 1/2 years ago.  Some of these oaks are 15 ft already.   




BOWHUNTERZ7

Ive got 800 seedlings coming this spring to plant once the pines are cut,   going with norway spruce, red oak, white oak, pin oak, chinese chestnut, crabapple, and some regular apple trees.  Should I just plant them between the stumps?

thecfarm

I can't help,but I see alot of wood for my OWB.  ;D
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Dobie

I'm familiar with these types of woods since I also live in western Pa and do quite a bit of habitat work myself.   If your primary concern is wildlife enhancement, my plan would be to cut 1/3 of that stand every 4-5 years.  Creating an uneven age regeneration should give you excellent hunting for the foreseeable future.   If you do it all at once, you'll have great hunting for probably 7-10 years and then it will be over. 


For better information, I would suggest posting this over at the QDMA forums.  Some might have different/better ideas.

Clark

I'm afraid you posted this under the guise of looking for advice but really had your mind made up are actually looking for someone to tell you it is a good idea. I'll presume you didn't.

Does the red pine have absolutely no timber value? Around here that would be thinned and managed well it would provide great income and could be transitioned to something more diverse that would benefit wildlife and your hunting pursuits. It's really quite simple but clearcutting the whole lot narrows your future management options significantly.

You bought 800 seedlings to cover 40 acres? That's 20/acre...if you meant 8000 you'd still be a bit low unless you can count on an equal amount seedlings resulting from natural regeneration. This part of your plan should make you question all other parts of your plan but I'm sure you know what you're doing.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

CJennings

Bowhunter: is that last picture, the area you cut, from a part of the land that was red pine plantation or was it already hardwood or a mix with hardwood?

What I'd be worried about if I suggested clearcutting is that you won't get much regeneration, or at least not what you want. The idea with a shelterwood is to get the new trees established before removing all of the mature trees, so you don't get a giant berry briar patch. The red pine plantation is in a stage sometimes called stem exclusion, where you don't see any (or almost any) regeneration in the understory, because of density and the lack of available sunlight. Thus, when it's cut, your only source of regeneration will be what seed is in the soil, and seed from nearby trees. I would hate to see your property go from a red pine plantation that isn't the best but still of value, to some of the disasters I've seen (spruce budworm clearcuts in Maine from 40 years ago that are still only producing raspberries...).

800 seedlings is a lot of seedlings to manage for one person but it won't cover too many acres if you want a well stocked forest. I could see planting 800 trees on an acre in some instances, because open grown trees/low density results in poor form. You'd be looking at several thousand seedlings to purchase and to pay a crew to plant them. It may not seem it at first, but planting trees is back breaking work on that scale. I've got about 200 trees to plant on my little woodlot this spring (an enrichment planting really) and it's a pretty daunting task to plant, erect cages to protect some of them from browsing, etc.

BOWHUNTERZ7

That pic is from a red pine patch that I cut by hand with a chainsaw about 3 1/2 years ago.  We have been planting 800-1,000 trees each year, because its a ton of work for 2 people.  I dont have time to plant any more than that at the moment.

Magicman

OK, the 800 makes sense as your amount to personally plant each year.  I did something similar with a portion of my open land that was not in the initial Pine planting.  I planted Longleaf Pine plus Cherrybark, Shumard, and Swamp Chestnut Oaks.
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Ron Scott

The red pine does not look to bad from the pictures and 40 acres is a manageable stand and there is already an investment in the area's reforestation with added vegetative diversity to the area. I would manage it accordingly as red pine by doing its first thinning possibly by a row thinning  of every 3rd row with tree selection between the rows to 90-120 sq. ft.basal area. Depending upon the soil, you should get some natural regeneration of pine and hardwoods within the cleared rows and understory. Some supplemental plantings could then be done as desired.

The red pine would have to be really bad before I'd recommend it being clear cut after it has been established to what it appears to be in the photos.
~Ron

Lnewman

 I have a very similar plot in Western PA. All the suggestion s seem good but partial I think you need to work with a forrester to design a program specific to your location. I employed  West Penn Forestry. out of Grove city and was very happy with their work.
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Chuck White

The trees really need to be thinned!

If it were mine, I would go through the lot and remove every-other tree.

You would notice a big difference within 10 years!
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BOWHUNTERZ7

Quote from: Chuck White on February 22, 2016, 12:29:38 PM
The trees really need to be thinned!

If it were mine, I would go through the lot and remove every-other tree.

You would notice a big difference within 10 years!


I think that's what I'm going to do, now to find someone to do it.

Swamp Fox

I mark pine a lot. I'm also a bowhunter so I understand what you are looking for. I would manage that stand for poles and saw timber. Thinning now and being selective. Take out any trees that are defective, forked, have scars and undersized.

What is the average diameter running in the stand currently? It's hard to tell from pictures some times. I would not clear cut it. Thin it. Open up a few areas like you have done, maybe some food plots. As you thin it the thinning will allow more light into the stand and you will get more cover for deer.

BOWHUNTERZ7

Those are the smallest pines.   The rest are anywhere from 8-14 inches

Swamp Fox

Do you know how many acres you have in each age/size class. I'd love to see an aerial photo of the property. I love doing land management with wildlife goal in mind. Too bad I'm not closer. WI and PA are a little too far.

BOWHUNTERZ7


BOWHUNTERZ7

They are all the same age, they were planted in the mid 70's.   Some grew better than the rest after it was stripped.

Swamp Fox

 That looks like a great chunk of land to play with. I think you are on the right path. I would still thin it. Talk to the logger about clearing out a few areas, maybe even trade or hire some equipment work and clear a few food plots.

Deer are edge animals. That piece of ground has plenty of edges and timber type changes. I'd add some food plots to the mix, keep some areas thicker and don't enter them often for a sanctuary. Try and plan where you want bedding and feeding. There is a site run by some friends of mine called Wildlifemanagementtrees.com they offer services in Illinois. On their site they have a few videos showing some land management ideas. I don't really like their TSI work where they hing trees to create bedding areas and sanctuaries but that's the forester in me. Sometimes it seems like a waste of a good resource.

Check out their site. Thin your trees and make your land a working tract. Harvests in the future as the trees age will make you money. You can reinvest into your property, buy a tractor and have some fun like the rest of us on here. Or use the money to go on a hunting trip. I really think you are doing it right, asking questions first is better than regrets later.

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