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Pricing our service ( once again )

Started by Seaman, February 19, 2016, 08:24:55 AM

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Seaman

I know this has been covered a lot, but a thought came to me that I do not recall being covered. I would like the opinion of those with a better head for business. This would apply to the Woodmizer only, not a job that I take both mills to.

I am thinking about a flat rate for a day of sawing, say $300 for half day, $500 for full day. Plus travel if over a certain distance, say 30 miles.

I know the dollar amount would vary across the country, but as a concept, what do you think?
I really do not want to hook up and leave the farm for less than $300, and I think $500 is a good number for me for a days work with the band mill.
Frank
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

Ron Wenrich

Not a Woodmizer guy, but maybe you could be thinking about the savings or expense the customer is getting.  You would have to know about what to expect out of a day's sawing.  You would also have to figure out what you would charge for custom sawing if they brought you the logs.  You'll come up with a number and the difference between you moving the mill and them bringing you the logs is the cost of loading and hauling.  Maybe it makes sense to drag the mill to the logs, maybe it makes sense to drag the logs to the mill. 

Other factors that come in is what the customer is going to do with the slabs and sawdust.  That may be something they haven't thought about.  Maybe it would be more worthwhile to figure out a log and lumber hauling number to give as an offset.  It doesn't mean you have to do the service, but maybe you could help arrange the service. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Magicman

I could never charge by the day because of the variables.  What about the 3 or 6 hour job?  Some jobs may take a short 7 hour day and some a long 9-10 hour day.  I will stick with the hourly rate for such as the ERC job tomorrow, and bf rate for all others.

I also charge a travel/setup fee.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

esteadle

I agree with your idea. I have a policy that sets a 4 hour minimum for on site sawing services. I charge an hourly rate that reflects my costs, and the minimum ensures that the customer is prepared to pay at least enough to make the trip out worth the time. I charge from the time I leave my site, to the time the saw is shut down after the last cut. This helps to account for extra costs for longer distance jobs. I prefer hourly charge vs. board footage charges, because the customer realizes that the saw needs to be cutting as much as possible. Tends to reduce the chit-chat and BSing during the job, and gets me home at night sooner.

Finn1903

This topic comes up allot, which I think is good. 

Over the last couple of years I have been milling by the hobbs and at $65 per hour, 50 trip charge.

The problem is struggling to justify hooking up the mill, spending the whole day away from home and brining back a few hundred dollars when I have a $40,000 mill.  The guy running a skid steer, which costs less then my mill, is making same if not more then I am.  I see allot more skid steers going down the road then sawmills.

So I decided to justify my time and cost to run the mill.

Small jobs, 1 or 2 yards trees are priced by the hour, with a $60 trip cost, one time setup, damaged blade $30.  This usually works out to be $300-$500 estimate with sales tax, generally half a day.

Larger jobs, say 5+ logs stacked and ready to roll onto the mill is priced per board foot, $0.32-0.45 per board-foot cut.  The variable depends on species, help, hassle level, and size lumber.  Trip charge, setup and damaged blades still the same.  A good day should net $1000-2000.

I have estimated a few jobs with a board-foot estimate, lost because it was higher then the customer expected. 

What I am trying to get away from is dragging my mill down the road to cut 1 log and coming home with $100.  Just not worth it when I could make more money selling more livestock off the farm with allot less work. Not to mention time away from family.  Also worth noting, I mill on the side and do not depend on the income to make a living.

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say.
WM LT40HDD47, bunch of saws, tractor, backhoe, and a loving wife.

Bandmill Bandit

Quote from: Finn1903 on February 19, 2016, 09:50:45 AM

What I am trying to get away from is dragging my mill down the road to cut 1 log and coming home with $100.  Just not worth it when I could make more money selling more livestock off the farm with allot less work. Not to mention time away from family.  Also worth noting, I mill on the side and do not depend on the income to make a living.

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say.

Hey Finn

Been there done that.

PLEASE NOTE:
My rates are expressed in Canadian Dollars BUT i really dont see the costs associated with operations on either side of the boarder as significantly different.

I have implemented a minimum charge for moving the mill of a one day charge which is equal too an 8 hour charge at $100 an hour or $800 minimum if I am moving to you. 50% deposit of said minimum paid in advance BEFORE I hook onto the mill.

This minimum rate includes the move to site, setting up the mill and sawing logs for the balance of the day. After the initial 8 hours its the $100 and hour rate.

If you bring a log to me my minimum is $100 for me start the mill and gets you 1 hour of my time.

Your BF price is pretty much the same as mine but I don't use that price unless I am in real good timber and producing 325BF + per hour for at least 4 hours running which would mean an hourly rate of $104 based on the 32 cent /BF you indicate is the low side of the BF price for you. My average production in good timber is just over the 300BF/hr 

I Charge $50 for damaged blades
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

terrifictimbersllc

The half day/full day idea gets complicated as MM said.  I'd think you'd need to base your rules on hours, anyway, for jobs that don't fit 1/2 or full days. And that leads to how do you measure your time.

I charge travel (one day trips that is mileage, successive days either mileage or motel cost), and hourly with a minimum number of hours that depends on the distance. 

Blade charges and charges for dulling long bar chains (30, 41, 59") are the possible extras. 

To date the minimum hour charge maxes out at 8 hours.  That 8hr works because it is a "day", and because CT is a small state my farthest trip cant be more than about 120 miles one way. I don't cross state lines towing,  because I don't want to either have a DOT number, or register for business in some of the bordering states.  Yes, rules and regulation affect my business and service to customers.

I usually have a 2 hour minimum, plus the mileage, for very close jobs say up to 10 miles or so.  I don't mind, the mill is usually hooked up & ready, and scheduling these is much more on my schedule not the customer's. 

This charging scheme works well for most of my jobs.  It motivates customers to pay attention to having logs ready, to help out, work efficiently,  have machines available, not stack lumber, not leave me alone with big wood, and other things.  Where I miss out a bit are the very high productivity jobs where i leave the customer with lumber for less than 25 cents a bf, sometimes much less.  My pay is limited by the hourly rate but I benefit from satisfied customers who do tell others.  I don't feel too bad because such days are enabled by customers preparation and their hard work with the material handling.








DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Tom the Sawyer

Frank,

As you can see, there are a lot of opinions... and there should be.  We don't all run the same size or style of mill, and we certainly don't work the same types of jobs.  Even if you restrict it to mobile milling, no one size fits all.  I am the only active, mobile mill service within at least 50 miles - my jobs vary widely.  My travel distances run from 2 to 75 miles, charging by the actual distance makes it more fair, in my opinion.  Whether 2 miles or 75, the time and effort to setup the mill (and pack it up) is pretty much the same, therefore I have a fixed Mobile Setup Fee. 

My milling fees are primarily by the board foot, but there is an hourly rate for low-productivity situations.  There are fees based on the actual work, if logs need to be moved farther, trimmed with a chainsaw, or they need help moving product, they are charged.  If they are prepared, responsive and efficient, then their costs are less.

If my jobs were pretty consistent, milling the same type of product, from the same species, for people with large quantities, equipment and help; then I could probably come up with a generalized fee.  It may work for some, it wouldn't work for me.  That is why my pricing is a-la-carte, I don't ever want someone to pay for something they feel they didn't get. ;)   
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

WV Sawmiller

Frank,

   In all honesty I have never seen pricing by the day/half day proposed this way on any of the numerous, similar threads here on the FF. I think it is a novel approach. There are lots who charge by the bf, lots who charge by the hour, many of us have a minimum charge for mobile (and maybe stationary) jobs, mileage, damaged blade charges, setup/move fees, log prep charges, etc. Many of us use a mixture of bf and hourly based on conditions of the logs, etc. but I never read of anyone using a day rate.

   In all honesty I don't think most of my customers would go for it because of the uncertainty of how much it would cost to get the logs cut. They are already nervous with an hourly rate. You might offer it as an option and see how well it goes over. If folks like it let us know.

   When would you start the clock? When you arrived at the site? When you left home? Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

terrifictimbersllc

I guess I could imagine half day, day, and maybe heroic day as an interesting way to charge.   Who's to say you couldn't.   

Tell the customer to put the iffy logs in back of the pile, and continue on if desired,  sort of like putting coins in for extra minutes at the campground shower. 

That would give them the option to send you home after a half day if they don't like it.   :D
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Magicman

I often have customers that have logs in a "save pile" to saw if there is time, if we get to them, or if he does not quite have enough lumber.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

drobertson

Quote from: Magicman on February 19, 2016, 02:57:55 PM
I often have customers that have logs in a "save pile" to saw if there is time, if we get to them, or if he does not quite have enough lumber.
There are set back pile for sure, not necessarily save back piles, everyone I've dealt with say saw it all if it will make.  The set back piles are logs that get mixed up in length,, wind up in the wrong pile then show up while I am staging the next length,, these get set back,, I have had order changes, mainly in the form of a few beams or wide boards,  these then fit the bill quite nicely,,  I am a bd'ft sawyer, with a few quickies, thrown in, it's a balance of give and take, never heard but one  complaint.  And it was quite comical,, this fellow gripped about everyone that he hired,,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Bandmill Bandit

The only application of the day rate as I apply it is in my mobile move to clients site and it is my MINIMUM rate for moving my mill. The only reason I express it as I do is so the customer understands how I arrive at that rate and it is charged from the time I leave my driveway till I get back in my truck to head for home. Next day starts when I leave my drive way to head to the job site. Most jobs are in the 1 ish hour range of home.

By doing the way I do it there are no questions or conflicts on rates. It is real simple to explain and I rarely get any questions on it.   

I am NOT moving my mill to cut for an hour. It is a waste of my time and I encourage those people to come to me. Minimum is 100 bucks and that give you an hour of my time.

I do NOT move my mill UNTILL I have inspected the work site in person OR I know the client and know their yard/site! this policy has save my bacon more then once. I have done one where the client sent me about 10 pictures of the site and the logs. He was a logger so he knew what I wanted and I didn't have to make the trip but the gas to inspect is a worthy investment 90% of the time.

Cut dried stacked and banded you could call it.

   
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

bkaimwood

I love the idea, Seaman, think its great!!! I also use it, ALOT...I know alot  of people, as seen in recent posts, disagree... Most of the reason seems to be fairness to the client. So hear me out. When I started using this method, my vision of "menu" pricing a sawjob was in the interest of covering myself, while easing the mind of the client, and it stems from this...How many of you have arrived at a sawjob only to find logs not staged properly, multiple log PILES, poorly trimmed logs, client help that didn't show, rough terrain, man, the list goes on...I see alot of hands up. Ideally, you'd be visiting the site, but its not always local, convenient, and we'll, its your time which costs money. I only see 10% of my jobs before I get there. On the phone, customers want to know what if the logs aren't lined up right, or there's two piles, or one is slightly over a hill, or they need to be cut to length, or they need help handling lumber, and so on...they have no idea what to expect, what charges may total, or how much will get done...they are weary. Enter "menu" pricing. I calm the customer down, and tell them, no worries, I can take care of it. I ask how many logs they have, approximate size, and a few basic questions that help me guage the degree of disaster they have at the location. So I know estimated bf, travel distance now...I will be showing up with a chainsaw, mill, 4x4 truck, chains, rope, can't hooks, a winch, and so on...things I'd have with no matter what. I'm already going equipped, lets not make it complicated. For instance, if they have half a dozen logs, decent size, and slight to moderate complications, its going to be around half a day. If they have 20 decent logs, well staged, its a full day. I can estimate by the quantity of logs/bf, degree of disarray, and so forth, about how long it will take, and I think most of us can. So, for the sake of round numbers, say you want 800 bucks a day...as an example, I recently got a call to saw 3 big oak logs, about 800 bf...I received pictures of the site, and noted these logs in a row, slightly over a hump in the yard...I knew I'd have to yank them up with the truck and chain, too big to roll uphill with the cant hook...and then setup to saw...I figured this job was a half a day...so I said I will come out, drag and stage the logs, saw them, and the fee would be 400 bucks, and I take care of everything except stacking. The customer though is was great. I know what I'm coming home with, he knows what the end of job price will be, no surprises, unless I hit metal, which is 25 bucks per occurance. Scenario 2...I have a customer with 10k bf he want sawed, is very familiar with mills, staging logs, full line of support equipment, 2 offbearers, ideal setup. He wants to know how much we should be able to saw. I tell him 2k bf shouldn't be a problem, give or take. I tell him I show up, and saw my tail off for 8 hours straight, minus 15 minutes for a sandwich....all inclusive rate. He knows what he's getting, and what the bill will be, no surprises. People hate surprises, but appreciate simplicity. I've quoted from example one, less than ideal, to example 2, nearly ideal, and many in between. People like knowing what they are getting... They also like hearing, and knowing that their sawyer will take care of anything and everything... Easing their minds...food for thought
bk

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

drobertson

Not trying to be a hard, ars, but this sounds ok, but really this system boils down to a one cost set up fee, period,, " I will show up for the day for X amount of dollars regardless of the production"  please don't get mad, I get it mainly because it boils down to a normal honest days work of sawing, but what if some folks don't get it?  I get it, and a usual day is about the same as any other, all things considered, but there has to be some kind of measurement in my mind, just thinking aloud here,,,,,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Magicman

It has been stated many times in similar threads on this same subject.  Be very sure that you and the customer discuss, understand, and agree to the sawing and billing terms.   smiley_contract
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

drobertson

Quote from: Magicman on February 19, 2016, 08:51:16 PM
It has been stated many times in similar threads on this same subject.  Be very sure that you and the customer discuss, understand, and agree to the sawing and billing terms.   smiley_contract
Yes sir, pretty much sums it up,, but there has to be a measurement right,  this sounds different to me, what about a tally,,  did you give some away, or take the customer?   just asking,  If all is happy at the end of the day then all is good, but for a thought on how to charge, being a trial basis,, this sounds like it could get sketchy,, at the end of the day, maybe just me,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Bandmill Bandit

Hey Doc

I hear you loud and clear and that is pretty much what I get from most of my first time clients. Hence the no cost to you trip to your site. Client gets meet me and me them, we have a cup of coffee at a kitchen table as a rule and most times turns out we know a few people in common. We walk the work area an I do basic instruction and teaching about bucking logs to get the most lumber, and how to stage them to provide the most efficient sawing operation, removal of saw dust and waste and finished lumber.

By the time that 2 hours +/- is done the client know how I operate and I know how he operates, what his equipment looks like and how he treats it. I will often leave having given an estimate of time to do the job but NEVER a dollar amount. By the time I leave we have a repore that make both comfortable. with this policy in place I have yet to end up on the short  end of things.

Also on big jobs I take payment every Friday for either hours or production rate as it applies to the job. That way I am never out more than a weeks work.

And I don't bend much! For any one! If you want me to bend a whole bunch I really don't want your work. My mill is paid for and it don't cost me a cent to sit in my yard. 

Here is how it looks in written form.

Trip to site to inspect           FREE
Move and set up                 $800.00 Paid in advance. includes sawing balance of day after set up
milling & support work        $100.00/HR to completion of the job
metal damage to bands       $50 each


           
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

bkaimwood

The FF forum is for help and opinion, but what you said minus the last sentence says it all. And simplifies it...I will come to your place, make you a nice stack of lumber , and take care of all the complications, don't worry about it... As long as you go home paid, and leave your customer happy by doing the things you said you would, as this pricing strategy was designed for, I don't see the issue...the last sentence was to the effect of what if your customer was not fond of this, or something to this effect... I've yet to find one that wasn't pleased by its simplicity... In areas where trees grow straight and tall, and you arrive to a nice whack of logs, the bf method us great, and benefits both parties... I see plenty of posts of sawyer's constantly showing up and sawing 2k bf of dimensional lumber from nice logs daily...that's great and ideal...BUT these results are regionally influenced by tree and timber quality... I am in an area where a significant amount of saw jobs I do are residential in setting, and I'd be lucky if I could call half the logs in a given pile sawlogs. So its more of a struggle to make good lumber from low grade logs...more time, more skill, more blades...but in the end, if you do your best, and make a nice pile if lumber from you job, you will leave your customer happy...
bk

sandsawmill14

when i was sawing mobile i charged 250 per mbdft with a mbdft minimum no charge for hitting metal the first time but if they said keep sawing it i charged $20 per blade i did the stacking but if they want it on sticks they were on their own :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Seaman

WOW, thanks for all your feedback! I will probably settle somewhere towards the standard rate, but not exclusively.

I really need to set a minimum price, for the trouble of leaving the farm, regardless of job.
Travel and setup fee
A bf price for the jobs with really nice logs
Min all day price for whacky logs.

I agree with Magicman 100%, all needs to be clear between me and customer. I always tell them " the last thing I want is to drive off after a job, and the customer mutter "" I wish I had never met that *^%"" ".
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

dhp3228

Do y'all ever leave your mills overnight at a customers job or take it home every night?

sandsawmill14

Quote from: dhp3228 on February 20, 2016, 08:09:36 AM
Do y'all ever leave your mills overnight at a customers job or take it home every night?

i have never moved my mill before the job was done but i did take the axle off ;D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: dhp3228 on February 20, 2016, 08:09:36 AM
Do y'all ever leave your mills overnight at a customers job or take it home every night?
I'll leave either of my mills overnight if it seems safe.  A property that is attended/occupied, quitting end of day and being back by 730 the next morning is usual.  Never at a lot where there are passers-by and it looks like no one is watching.    Another consideration is if there's any uncertainty that i'll be back because of weather etc, I don't want to have my mill somewhere that I'll have to go get it.  It really makes no difference to me to take it home, leaving it benefits the customer with reduced time setting up/packing up which is included in my hourly time.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

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