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Condensation in the shop is killing me - anybody have a magic solution?

Started by btulloh, February 16, 2016, 08:42:13 AM

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btulloh

Yesterday it was 25 degrees and snowing.  Today it's 59 and raining.  It's not unusual around here to have those kind of swings and it leaves me with a lot of humid air in a shop full of cold metal tools.  The shop is heated by a woodstove, so it's hard to maintain overnight temps.  I've tried a number of different things to help, but can't lick the problem. 
HM126

pineywoods

Room de-humidifier as long as the temp stays above freezing. Buy one or more at flea markets and garage sales. We use them inside our solar dry kilns..
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Seavee

Wood mizer lt50 47hp yanmar Diesel  Sthil MS311, Ms661 MS200T, 029 farm boss  and a New Holland T4  75hp.

isawlogs

  Either you put heat in there or a dehumidifier, either one will take care of the issue.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

btulloh

Heating round the clock is not really practical in this shop.  Will a dehumidifier work well in a shop that has right much air infiltration?  It's sort of insulated and sort of sealed, but there are plenty cracks for air to exchange with the outside.  It's sealed about as good as practical for now.  To improve that I'd have to build a new shop. 

I guess I'd have to pick my times to run the dehumidifier as the shop does drop below freezing on occasion.  I haven't had any experience with DH's so I guess I better pick one up and start my learning process. 

This is a fairly small space - about 500 sq ft.  I'm just trying to keep rust off the planes and ten thousand other steel items.
HM126

Seavee

Before you spend a bunch of money try fans blowing in the garage, and do not use any type of propane or fuel type heater it will just add to you moisture problem. I keep fans blowing on the custom motorcycles all winter. Works perfectly.
Wood mizer lt50 47hp yanmar Diesel  Sthil MS311, Ms661 MS200T, 029 farm boss  and a New Holland T4  75hp.

21incher

Most dehumidifiers will freeze up and not work below 60 degrees so don't bother running it when the heat is off. How about building a small well insulated closet with a small heater for the hand tools. Do you have a vapor barrier under the slab because that is where most moisture comes from in the winter. :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

VTwoodworker

My shop is insulated but not real well and about the same size as yours.  i use a repurposed mobile home propane furnace to keep my shop at 45 deg and that does a good job of preventing condensation on the flat surfaces of cast iron and hand tools during the fall, winter and spring months.  I use about 80 gal of propane per year - a few more when I am in the shop more and the heat is turned up.

I think your solution begins with insulation so you can keep your tools warmer. 

As a stop gap solution try covering your tools with dry towels during these extreme weather swings.  The key is the towels need to be dry and need to be removed ASAP if they start to get damp over time.

Larry

Years ago my shop was in an non insulated pole barn.  During some weather conditions, mostly in the spring it was so bad water would condense on the metal roof and drip down on the machines.  Happened two or three times a year.  Rest of the time moisture would condense on the cold machines.

To beat the condensation I draped heavy plastic over each machine.  I also kept the tops waxed.  Worked well for the few months condensation was a problem.  Rest of the year I left the machines uncovered.  Keeping plastic on them year round might create more problems.

Insulation and making the building tight is the real answer. 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

scgargoyle

The key is keeping that (relatively) warm, humid air out. The problem is that when the metal and concrete is cold, the warm humid air condenses on it, like a glass of ice water on a hot day. If the shop is cold, it's probably fairly dry, as cold air won't hold as much moisture. My barn here in SC does the same thing. If I open the doors, the floor will be WET in minutes. Try avoiding opening the doors until you get the heat cranked up. It's tempting to let that warm air in when the shop is cold, but it brings the moisture with it.
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

btulloh

Thanks for all the discussion.  It looks the only real solution is to add some kind of heat - probably propane - to keep the shop from going below 45 degrees.  There are too many issues with this old building and the slab.  All the hand tools are in drawers and cabinets already.  Machines aren't a big problem - they get sprayed on a regular basis with TopCote which works well.

All this adds up to:  I NEED TO BUILD A NEW SHOP.  That's been true for a while, for many reasons. Not a simple project though.
HM126

SwampDonkey

I live in colder climate up here. The worst times for moisture for my shop was above freezing and no heat or dehumidifier. In the winter I never had moisture trouble and the shop could be without a fire in the stove and it would not freeze for a couple days. It's the growing season that is hard on things, no heat, no dehumidifier. If a shop is insulated or any building, it needs heat or dehumidifier or there will be moisture trouble. An uninsulated unheated building will stand up longer than one insulated and unheated, you can count on that.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

pineywoods

Find one or more cheap room de-humidifiers. Neighbor just bought 2 for $15 each. They do create some heat, which will help. Yes they will freeze up and quit when the temp gets cold, but leave them running while the temp is warmer, wringing the moisture out of the air in the building..Might not be enough, but at that price, it' would be worth a try...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

21incher

If the hand tools are in cabinets this company http://www.zerust.com has Vapor Corrosion Inhibitors that can be placed in the drawers that will offer 6 months of protection. I tried some samples years ago in a drawer with all my precision ground machinist tools and they work, but were a little expensive. They used to give out samples if you called them:)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

Just Me

Quote from: btulloh on February 16, 2016, 02:51:34 PM
Heating round the clock is not really practical in this shop. .
This is a fairly small space - about 500 sq ft.  I'm just trying to keep rust off the planes and ten thousand other steel items.

It does not have to be that good of a heater.  It just needs to be warmer on the inside than it is on the outside. a small temperature differential, say 5 degrees will do the trick.

If you use propane make sure it is a vented heater. Unvented heaters put a ton of moisture in the air and can make it worse.

OneWithWood

The barn my wood working equipment (table saw, jointer, planer, bandsaw, drill press) is in has no heating or cooling.  The best thing I have found to keep the steel tops free of moisture is to lay a thin sheet of insulation over them.  I use the fan fold 1/4" stuff used for roofing.  My hand tools are kept in drawers or cupboards and stay rust free.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Stuart Caruk

I used to work on many of the big plasma cutters for the major metal suppliers in our area. In the Pacific NW, you are simply not going to climate control an 1800' x 200' warehouse with ceilings 40' high. There are a couple weeks when the massive steel piles have become cold soaked that the temperatures rise. It ends up literally raining inside the buildings from condensation. Water simply runs off all the steel plate.

One of my customers added maybe half a dozen decent sized fans just to keep the air moving in the building. The condensation problem went away. I have since done the same thing in one of my open sided, unheated shops and it works wonders. Much cheaper than building a new building or heating the building for the 2 or 3 weeks a year that it's an issue.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

Just Me

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That works here most of the time. I have my heater set so I can run it fan only, but about Maple Syrup time where it is in the 20's at night and 40 in the daytime it does not, so I set the heater at 40. My shop is not 1800 feet long though, my property is only 1320, so that would be a problem. :D
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jaysaint

have you considered spray foam insulation on the ceiling,  its not cheap but  should do the job  contact your local insulation company for  more accurate info.  good luck,   Jay
grandburg mill,  stihl 066 husky 562 xp,  felling axe    oh also lt 10

btulloh

Good discussion.

I like the fans.  Then add some heat to keep from going below 40 degrees.  Both are easily achievable.  "When faced with two possible solutions, the simplest is usually the best."  (Humidity is not exactly what Occam had in mind, but I think it applies here. ;))

I still need to build a new shop - because who doesn't?  Fans are a little quicker and cheaper though.  The Shop of The Future always seems to wait til NEXT YEAR.

BT
HM126

Seavee

Quote from: Stuart Caruk on February 20, 2016, 03:41:29 PM
One of my customers added maybe half a dozen decent sized fans just to keep the air moving in the building. The condensation problem went away. I have since done the same thing in one of my open sided, unheated shops and it works wonders. Much cheaper than building a new building or heating the building for the 2 or 3 weeks a year that it's an issue.
Wow after all these responses some finally understands and has seen this work. Try it before you spend a bunch of money on fuel for heaters.
Wood mizer lt50 47hp yanmar Diesel  Sthil MS311, Ms661 MS200T, 029 farm boss  and a New Holland T4  75hp.

SwampDonkey

Most of us heat with wood I would think if we are talking wood working shop. I'll be building a new shop once I get the new house built, but that is 2 or 3 years out. Then it's not hard to keep a fire enough to heat things. I'll be thinning my woods and the cut stuff is sure to make heat.  8)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Al_Smith

The biggest problem is the amount of moisture heated air can hold--wood stove .Once it cools down it condenses. Fans are probably the easiest solution .

By design eave vents and ridge vents provide some cross ventilation .Kind of a moot point though if the building is already built .Similar to closing the barn door after the horse got out .

Old giant dairy barns used cupolas but I have no idea how well they would work on a small shop other than look cool.

SwampDonkey

Never had trouble when heated with the stove at all. Bone dry. But spring summer and fall when I was not heating it, there was lots of moisture. I always left the shop door open during those times so air could flow. It is inside a barn, not a building by itself.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Al_Smith

It isn't when the stove is burning.It is when the heat goes out and the warmed air cools .

You get the same thing in fall and spring .The day time temp warms the insides of the building but come sundown it cools off .Can't hold as much suspended moisture ,has to go some place .

Stop and think about it .In an opened sided lumber drying shed do you ever see any moisture ?Unless the rain gets blown in of course .There is no differential of temperature .

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