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Equipment questions

Started by ronzxcvb, February 14, 2016, 12:49:35 AM

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ronzxcvb

Hello
We are moving down to South Carolina and are planning on getting at least 10 acres
And would love to get a saw mill
But need advice on what the best equipment would be to get the logs to and on the mill
I was thinking about getting a mini excavator or possibly a small tractor with a backhoe attachment like the 25hp John Deer and if I got lucky a backhoe that's  within my budget (10-13k)

But I have been thinking that they wont be able to handle the weight lifting or moving large tree trunks
That I should be looking at getting a skid steer with a grapple attachment?
While I probably would find a backhoe more useful if I bend or break it trying to use it for stuff it wasn't designed for wouldn't be to smart
Thanks for any advice

BargeMonkey

 A full size TLB / small tractor / mini / skidsteer all do a specific job well, but you sound like your angling for 2+ machines which is nice to do.

A skidsteer in the 50-60hp 15-1800 lb class is the handiest machine money can buy in my book. If you want to do it, they make an attachment for it. If your planning on doing more than mowing the lawn I wouldn't buy a homeowner 25 hp type tractor, big initial cost for a small machine that doesn't do much. Any tractor under 60-75 hp is bringing a premium because everyone wants one, I'm a NH fan and something in the 35hp+ region will do alot. Full-size TLB's are CHEAP, lower hr machines are out there, price on them is kind of regional, just avoid something that has seen alot of salt, hose gets expensive. There are 2x Cat 416C's on my road owned by weekend people, I doubt they paid more than 12-15k. Depends if your just skidding / milling on your own place or plan on doing outside work determines what stuff I would buy, doesn't take much to tie up alot of money. Small sawmills are another niche, expensive new but lose value like a rock. We watch the papers close and see low hr band mill's bringing 1/2 of new with 500hrs. You watch close enough you can find someone going out who has done all the legwork and bought the extra's such as a setter and sharpener and has extra parts on hand.

thecfarm

ronzxcvb,welcome to the forum. Small tractor is not a good word to use when you start saying "weight lifting or moving large tree trunks" There are some on here that use a small tractor,but they are using arches to move the logs. I am talking about tractors made in the last 15-20 years. I have a 30hp and a 40hp. BIG diffenace in size and weight of each. The 30 is really the wife's. She mows alot with it. Does not really see any heavy work. We did not get a loader with it,because I have one on the 40hp. The 40hp is the work horse of The Farm. I pick up good size logs with ease. I say good size,anything I want to turn by hand on my manual mill. Maybe 2 feet at the biggest. Maybe an older tractor might do ya.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ronzxcvb

I should have mentioned that I have a bad back
After thinking about it a skid steer probably would be too rough on it
I have worked around backhoes and other construction equipment for 18 years but not operating them
how would something like a  Cat 416C hold up to lifting and moving logs?
I know its not made for that purpose and would hate to end up with a really big paper weight
getting a 40+ hp tractor would probably be the most economical route to go. I have only seen 1 or 2 backhoe attachments for the large tractors on Craig's list and they were really expensive 
But harbor freight has a small tow able one for around 3k that I could get to do any digging
For the mill I'm hoping to find a used one there is so much excellent information on this site
any questions I had about them found the answers here 

sandsawmill14

i use a 555c ford backhoe with forks to move logs when im am sawing at home and it works well but it is pretty close to the minimum far as size if you are going to handle anything of any size. it wont pick up a 1000 bdft stack lumber and a 12' long 30" small end dia red oak is all it will handle and even with the extend a boom you have to scoop back bucket full of dirt for weight to pick up logs that size the biggest you can afford will suit you better for handling logs and lumber :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

BargeMonkey

 You will see alot of guys on here with 30-50HP tractors / winches w/ a loader and they do alot of work without tearing everything up like a big machine will.  Attachments are cheap if you watch, know of a LARGE 3pt backhoe that had no hours that went for 500 last fall, too big for a 35-50hp, guy almost gave it away. Certain regions things bring more money, around here there are alot of landscapers and small excavation guys, they tend to go belly up after 1-2 yrs and you can buy the odd attachment you've been wanting for 1/3 of the new price. Same thing goes for machines, i personally think CL is 90% drama anyway, have you looked @ machinerytrader.com or tractorhouse.com ? We use a LS-175 / C-175 around our mill and does just fine, but like the last guy said, your not picking a monster lift of lumber or a 20' X 3'wide stick of oak with it.

sandsawmill14

the main thing is look at what you plan to do and pick your equipment accordingly 

 
this is what i use daily ;D nice but overkill for sure  the main thing is know your equipments limitations and use common sense. even  those 2 loaders get over loaded and bounce the back wheels offf the ground sometimes :o  you just have to pick what you think will best suit your needs and ere on the big side instead of too small :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

jdonovan

Quote from: ronzxcvb on February 14, 2016, 11:10:47 AM
I should have mentioned that I have a bad back
There is no way I'd consider a SS with that condition.

most folks have only occasional need for a backhoe. unless your job is dig one hole drive a 1/2 mile, dig a hole... then a mini-ex will out dig anything you're going to put on a tractor, and the bigger mini's will run fairly close to a full size construction backhoe. I'd say rent a mini ex when you need digging, unless you need it very often.

Ya know why backhoes are a dime a dozen in the used market?  because everyone has switched to skid steers and mini excavators. They aren't bad machines, just more of a utility player... I always thought they were a good compromise machine until I got a midi-excavator. Now I'm trying to come up with reasons to keep my backhoe... and it doesn't look good for the backhoe.

If your site conditions would make it work... look into a compact wheel loader. Many of them take SS attachments, will lift as much as a SS and in many cases 50-100% more.  Bucket capacity is usually quite a bit higher as well. 

oldseabee

Unless you can get a wheel loader with a counterweight, look for a 50-60 HP tractor or TLB but be sure to get FWD, South Carolina can get muddy or sandy which can get soft with the high amounts of rain that you can get, being stuck is no fun unless you have a rescue machine.

ronzxcvb

Quote from: BargeMonkey on February 14, 2016, 11:51:16 AM
  have you looked @ machinerytrader.com or tractorhouse.com ?
I was only looking at Craig's list checked out machinery trader today
Wow that will make the task of getting the right equipment for the amount i want to spend alot easier thank you for telling me about them
 
I thought about renting a mini ex but I think that I would have enough use for the backhoe part to justify buying something that has one 
Before I found out that i could actually afford to get a saw mill I was thinking that getting a real small mini ex would have probably been my best option
but after getting a mill the best buy for the money I want to spend would probably be something like a ford 555 TLB might even have enough to get the wife a little 25 hp tractor 
I wouldn't pass up a good deal on a big mini ex or 50 hp tractor either 


gump

I would also not consider a skid steer! First your back..these things are very hard on your body. The wheeled ones are extremely bad. We have switched over to tracked machines for work (landscape construction), but they are still hard on you. The other thing is they have no ground clearance!! The wheeled ones are especially poor in the wet or mud, while tracked machines are better the ground clearance issues do come into play. We also had a small tractor (30hp, 4x4) with a loader which totally out performed the SS in muddy conditions, SS couldn't move while tractor slowed through mud. 

sandsawmill14

that 555 ford you mentioned will serve you well or at least mine has me we,had it since 94 or 95 and all i have spent on it is 1 hyd pump, 2 back tires and several front tires not bad for 20+ years of services :)  you will need something else for dragging logs out of the woods the 555 will do it but it so heavy it will make a mess if it is the least bit wet. but a 30-50 hp ag frame tractor (not compact) will pull one cut of about any size log and will pull 2-3 up to 16-18" i used a 641 ford for several years before i bought the 285 MF (we wont discuss what MF stands for >:( ;D )
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

ronzxcvb

Thanks for all the help
I will let you know what i get
Hopefully it don't take too long to get down there and then get set up

enigmaT120

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on February 15, 2016, 08:07:40 AM
that 555 ford you mentioned will serve you well or at least mine has me we,had it since 94 or 95 and all i have spent on it is 1 hyd pump, 2 back tires and several front tires not bad for 20+ years of services :)  you will need something else for dragging logs out of the woods the 555 will do it but it so heavy it will make a mess if it is the least bit wet. but a 30-50 hp ag frame tractor (not compact) will pull one cut of about any size log and will pull 2-3 up to 16-18" i used a 641 ford for several years before i bought the 285 MF (we wont discuss what MF stands for >:( ;D )

How necessary is 4WD for the tractor?  Your 285 might be (I love Tractordata.com) but the 641 apparently wasn't.  2WD tractors are way less expensive than 4WD.  I don't even want to drive the tractor through the woods, just on my skid roads.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

samandothers

I have a 4wd 42hp TLB Kubota. I would do it again, but might move up in additional lift ability.   I love the backhoe for digging out small trees, stumps or rocks.  I use mine in a mountainous area and want 4 wd.  Not good coming down a hill with something heavy in the grapple and the back tires start slipping and no 4wd to help hold you.  4wd has helped in mud and snow.  Depending on what your land is like in SC may dictate if 2wd would work. 
As mentioned I have a 5' grapple on front of mine to move logs, pop out small trees, grab brush.  I would not be without a grapple.  I have had issues with some larger logs exceeding what the tractor can lift with the grapple taking up about 4 or 500lbs of lift capacity. 
You might be able to add a thumb to an excavator to move some logs.  Not sure if that would cause issues from weight trying to torque the hoe. 

Good Luck and look forward to what you decide on.

Puffergas

I have a 56hp skid steer. Will not pick up a monster sized log but pick up what I want. I drive slow and it's slow so it's easy on my back. Not a road machine and on a hard road would be hard on your back. Built like a tank..! Not too hard to work on. Tires are affordable. Plows snow like the devil. Surprised me how well it worked in the pond mud but reduced what I could do by a large margin. Can get tracks or chains for them. Haven't skidded yet with it.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

thecfarm

2wd-4wd? Depends. We use to have a 2wd on this land. I've seen that tractor stuck on a stump and a rock many times or a big root. Just back up and set over and off we would go. We have a real steep hill to come down. Kinda scary with a trailer full of wood. 4wd drive takes away that scary feeling. It's a controlled down the hill with a trailer full of wood now. I have a manual sawmill. Many on here would not even look at one. Just depends.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sandsawmill14

Quote from: enigmaT120 on February 19, 2016, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: sandsawmill14 on February 15, 2016, 08:07:40 AM
that 555 ford you mentioned will serve you well or at least mine has me we,had it since 94 or 95 and all i have spent on it is 1 hyd pump, 2 back tires and several front tires not bad for 20+ years of services :)  you will need something else for dragging logs out of the woods the 555 will do it but it so heavy it will make a mess if it is the least bit wet. but a 30-50 hp ag frame tractor (not compact) will pull one cut of about any size log and will pull 2-3 up to 16-18" i used a 641 ford for several years before i bought the 285 MF (we wont discuss what MF stands for >:( ;D )


How necessary is 4WD for the tractor?  Your 285 might be (I love Tractordata.com) but the 641 apparently wasn't.  2WD tractors are way less expensive than 4WD.  I don't even want to drive the tractor through the woods, just on my skid roads.

the only 4WD tractor i have is the little tc24 ford. unless you are on real steep ground 2WD will be fine. the 285 is about 80-85 hp and if you set the hitch right it will pull logs when the ground is alot wetter than you should logging anyway ::) it will pull 300-400 bdft per hitch pretty easy when its dry and flat ground and the steeper or wetter it gets you just load it lighter. that may be a bigger tractor than you want to get. if you stay in the 30-40 hp i would recommend 4WD 50+hp its nice but not necessary and if you go with something like the 285 you dont need 4WD unless you just want it. if the 285 2WD wont do the job its time to step up to skidder anyway :) the biggest log i have pulled with the 285 was a 12' red oak that was about 34" on small end and it was a load but it handled it without much trouble. :) the 3 main things with a 2WD is hitch height, hitch height, and hitch height  ;D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

DDW_OR

ronzxcvb
I have a Mahindra 5520 4x4 (51hp) with a Farmi winch (11,000 pound pull), and pallet forks (3,000 pound) on the loader.
get the Skid-steer quick attach, NOT the 4 pin like i did.
I leave the winch on the tractor when i am moving logs. the winch acts like a counter balance.
this setup is plenty for 10 acres.

If you go with an excavator look at the 7,000 pound to 8,000 pound WITH Hydraulic thumb.
I have a Bobcat 331 and it could not lift a 32 inch by 18 foot green fir log.
had to use the log lifter on the TK-2000


  

  

 
"let the machines do the work"

Kbeitz

I got two Kubotas. Depending on your log size even my small 15hp kubota with no counter weight
will handle a 16ft log if your carful.



 

My bigger tractor with the hoe will move my biggest logs.



 


Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

sandsawmill14

the biggest problem is handling the lumber stacks if you dont have to load the lumber stacks you can get by with a lot smaller machine a 1000 bdft of lumber can weigh 5000-6000 lbs  :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

ronzxcvb

Its going to be a hobby mill so shouldn't need to move alot of lumber I am planning on making a solar kiln just might have to make smaller stacks
Should be able to check out some land next week depending on how hilly it is will know if I need 4 wheel drive 
and had a 20' shipping container delivered today to move my stuff down
so I own the lands first shed before I even have the property https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/grin.gif
Just hope it don't take too long to sell our house up here 

DDW_OR

when you start looking for equipment try these links
http://www.machinerytrader.com/
http://www.tractorhouse.com/
http://used.unitedrentals.com/

one test for Blow-By on the engine is to remove the oil cap then set it on to its hole while the engine is running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GddZqt46gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG_L7JiJfb4

"let the machines do the work"

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