Hmmm....here's a dilema

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 06:35:24 PM

Potential customer on a fixed income has 300 to 400 logs harvested last summer to thin out their 7 acres (before the fires and not burned). She was looking for someone to mill up enough for a couple projects on a 'share' basis (miller takes a share of the lumber)...but with that many logs (not seen yet) I have to wonder if it wouldn't be worth milling it all just to sell the end product.

Of course you'd have to find a buyer which may not be as easy as it sounds, and you'd have to price it right too I imagine.

Sounds like a mix of Fir and Ponderosa pine.

What would you do?

bkaimwood · February 10, 2016, 06:44:41 PM

I would walk away...around here, the largest percentage of pine down that long is garbage, or rustic at best... But what is your climate? If you are a good Samaritan, like I try to be, saw some for her to help her out, and if the stuff is OK, keep sawing for yourself... Can't hurt, right? Your financial position may dictate your next move...

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 06:47:08 PM

It's a dry climate so I've milled many logs cut the summer before and had great results. Sometimes there is a little blue stain but otherwise I've had no issues at all other than it's a bit harder since it's drier.

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 06:50:35 PM

come to think of it I have 30+ logs to mill up now that are all at least 6 months since felling.

Kbeitz · February 10, 2016, 07:17:41 PM

I have been cutting up logs down 7-10 years.
Some I need to cut off about 2" to find good wood and some are all good.
That suprised even me. Some that never got to touch the ground are great.

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 07:20:25 PM

The stuff that's down a lot longer out here gets some very nice marbling in it. I might lose a bunch to rot if it was on the ground but the solid stuff is amazing to make stuff out of.

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 07:23:36 PM

I'm trying to get an idea of what the size of these logs are as that might make a lot of difference. If they are all 8-10 inches I don't have any interest but if they are mostly 15-20 or bigger and 12-16 feet long that is where I start thinking it might be time to get the LT35HD and crank out as much lumber as I can in a week or so. If I could mill them all and take 50% it might make a large dent in the cost of the mill...

hence my interest.

WV Sawmiller · February 10, 2016, 07:50:10 PM

Do you typically sell lumber or saw for the public? If so why haven't you already looked at the logs or at least had her send you a picture to help answer the diameter and length questions? Is she too far away? Do you need or want the logs or lumber? Do you have space to store the logs or lumber? I assume you are mobile since it sounds like we have the same mill - could you mill everything on her site?

I'd first confirm the logs are worth sawing then I'd suggest she try to market the lumber and have her find a market for the lumber with the understanding the client would provide the cut list then I'd go cut it with her responsible for the pay.

If she was not interested in that proposal and I had time and was so inclined, I'd propose I'd market and cut and pay her a set bf rate on the finished/sold lumber such that I could make a satisfactory wage/profit. If she agreed to that I'd advertise in the sites where there was a likely market for rough sawn lumber - feed stores, bait shops, gun shops, garden supply places, local trader papers, etc.

If that did not work you might just refer her to other sawyers or firewood sellers (if the logs would qualify) and see if they wanted to buy her logs. Even if you don't work out a deal with her she would still appreciate the extra effort. Good luck and Semper Fi.

Magicman · February 10, 2016, 08:04:30 PM

Your dilemma is why I do not saw on shares. That would put me in the lumber business and I have no interest in developing any contacts in that market. Of course, this is your decision based on your potential market. ;D

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 08:10:15 PM

All good info. Thanks.

Currently I have my WM LT10 (we call it the LT10 Super or SMLT10 since it's on a custom trailer with mods) and do use it to mill for the public (when inclined but haven't in a year or so do to various factors). Now I'm trying to get back to milling for people and doing some advertising.

In the area there aren't many if any, mobile mills willing to go mill onsite (there are mills but all that I know want the logs brought to them) so I should be able to get more work. One of my incentives is that I want a hydraulic mill as part of my retirement plan. My goal is to be running my business part time until I decide to retire and then go full time during the warmer months (not much milling during the freeze up here).

Anyway, I've suggested she seek a buyer for the lumber but have been thinking that perhaps I ought to take a closer look to see what the logs look like. As for distance, she's about 2 1/2 hrs from my home and an hour from our cabin so to get out and look will require planning a trip there when I'm not working etc.

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 08:11:48 PM

Quote from: Magicman on February 10, 2016, 08:04:30 PM
Your dilemma is why I do not saw on shares. That would put me in the lumber business and I have no interest in developing any contacts in that market. Of course, this is your decision based on your potential market. ;D

Agreed. I rally don't want to be in the lumber business which is why I declined right off...just couldn't help thinking "300 to 400 logs"...and wondering if it might be profitable to mill them up and sell but again, without a buyer it might just be an exercise in futility! lol

Ohio_Bill · February 10, 2016, 08:24:14 PM

I cut logs for customers on shares a lot. Things I have learned over the years are always divide the logs and not the lumber. Do that by scaling the logs and totaling them. Then assign a value to the logs. Assign a value per bft for milling I'm going to say .30 per bf. Make sure all parties understand and agree. So you said there were 400 logs. We can use that for our example. Lets say they total 20000 bf and are worth .20 per bf $4000.00 She would get 40% of the logs milled for her share. 40% of 20000= 8000 x .30 milling cost = $2400.00 you get 60% of 20000 = 12000x .20 log value = $2400.00
That is how I do it

WV Sawmiller · February 10, 2016, 08:32:44 PM

Quote from: OlJarhead on February 10, 2016, 08:10:15 PM
Anyway, I've suggested she seek a buyer for the lumber but have been thinking that perhaps I ought to take a closer look to see what the logs look like. As for distance, she's about 2 1/2 hrs from my home and an hour from our cabin so to get out and look will require planning a trip there when I'm not working etc.

With that distance I would decline. I would likely come cut a small order for her if she wanted to pay my mileage and milling rate. I'd have pictures from her of the logs and make sure they were worth sawing before I'd even do that. Good luck.

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 08:36:16 PM

Ahhh I like that!

So if I'm milling softwood for .35bf and can buy the logs from a logger at .20bf then the math looks like this:

Her share is 40% of 20000=8000 x .35 milling cost = $2800
My share is 60% of 20000= 12000 x .20 log value = $2400

Then I'd have to look at the time it would take to mill 20000bf. If I'm running an LT35HD I'm looking at about 300bf/hr on average (I'm sure it could be a lot faster but since I only run an LT10 right now I have to guess) so it would take me about 66hrs to mill or 10 6hr days...or another way of looking at it would be $2400/66hrs = $36/hr

I won't work for $36/hr

Ohio_Bill · February 10, 2016, 08:57:59 PM

So because your actual sawing rate is .35 and not .30 . The share would be 37 % for her and 63 % for you . So all she is doing is paying her saw bill in logs . 12600 bf of them . When you saw 12600 bf of logs you should have over 16000 bf of lumber worth I don't know ? not trying to talk you into doing this . Just thought I would share . Thanks

OlJarhead · February 10, 2016, 09:30:03 PM

Quote from: Ohio_Bill on February 10, 2016, 08:57:59 PM
So because your actual sawing rate is .35 and not .30 . The share would be 37 % for her and 63 % for you . So all she is doing is paying her saw bill in logs . 12600 bf of them . When you saw 12600 bf of logs you should have over 16000 bf of lumber worth I don't know ? not trying to talk you into doing this . Just thought I would share . Thanks

I appreciate the feedback actually. If nothing it is an exercise in thought ;)

At milling rate that works out to around $50/hr -- now if the lumber can be sold it might be better.

Magicman · February 10, 2016, 10:41:18 PM

A lack of storage sheds was also a deal breaker for me.

ncsawyer · February 10, 2016, 11:10:34 PM

Like MM I don't want to be in the business of selling lumber...don't have anywhere to store and don't have time to market it.

I have sawn on halves before, only when I need logs for a building project and the customer has above average quality saw logs.

On the very few occasions I have cut on "halves" I have always come out better than expected because the customer has no idea how much lumber is in the logs. In my experience, I have been handed a cut list and was told the rest is yours and I have been able to get his lumber from 1/4 to 1/3 of the logs, leaving the rest for me.

WV Sawmiller · February 11, 2016, 06:40:41 AM

I sell a little lumber from trees I am thinning or salvage (fallen or dying like my ash trees and an occasional cherry) and advertise in a local free trader paper. Even then I try to convert to a portable sawing job and when someone calls I tell them a price and tell them if they have their own logs my rate for sawing.

I have never sawed on shares yet but would if the customer had wood I needed or wanted like walnut or cherry and if I did, based on what I have repeatedly read here on the FF, I would do so for the logs not the lumber.

Also I am always open to trade for lumber. I am working a deal right now to trade 900 bf of lumber for a 16' long trailer. All I need is the cut list from the trailer owner and we are golden. He needs lumber and another longer trailer would be handy or might be easier to sell than the lumber. I often make such proposals to people on craigslist. Can't hurt and keeps things interesting.

DanG · February 11, 2016, 12:24:07 PM

When I was in business, I preferred selling lumber over custom sawing. I've never liked messing with somebody else's stuff, and I sure don't like dealing with picky customers. I happened to have plenty of storage space and nobody else around was selling rough cut lumber. It was nice to be able to show the product before the deal was struck, and they could just take it or leave it. I couldn't even keep enough on hand for my own projects.

OlJarhead · February 12, 2016, 12:52:23 PM

While thinking about this I began to contemplate a future build I have in mind. I've been wanting to build a log cabin (finish style) and realized I could possibly get a lot fo the logs I want for this build by working with this lady depending on the logs she has. My thought is to build with 6x8 and 6x10 timbers which I could make out of the center of her logs....so I'll ponder.

Another thought I had was that buying logs means they will be delivered vs agreeing to do this job and having to transport product. So if it's 20c per bf on a delivered load I'd think on a deal like this it ought to be less....

THoughts?

WV Sawmiller · February 12, 2016, 01:03:41 PM

I don't buy logs so I have no idea what the going rates are or should be. I would suggest before you proceed much further, since you are so interested in these logs, I think if it were me I'd go look at them to actually determine the size and quality involved.

Banjo picker · February 12, 2016, 01:43:38 PM

Definitely have a look at them before any offer is msde. Unless she had some mighty nice timber, 400 logs sounds like a lot from. thinning 7 acres. Might be the shrinking kind i get ever once in a while. What's supposed to be nice saw logs turn into border line fire wood. Looks like someone with that many nice logs would have been more diligent in taking care of them, Guess I'm a pessimistic ole coot. Banjo