Sawing 30' beams

[Gilman]

I'm looking into production sawing long 12" x 12" beams for a local sawmill.  They will all be between 25' to 45' long.

I was wondering if any of you have done this type of work.  

[Tom]

I've cut some 25' stuff but haven't done anything any longer.   It is a chore on a mill with hydraulic or electric feed because you are tied to the feed mechanism.  I've given it some thought before and my opinion is ..... :D..........

This would be a great application for a push mill like Wood MIzer's LT15 or Tiimber King's 1220.  Those mills can be set up at ground level (does away with a lot of log handling) and the head of the mill is tied to nothing but the bed rails.  All you have to do is build bed rails in front of it and you can push the head all the way around the world if you wanted.  Sometimes Bigger isn't necessarily Better. :D

Becase they are manual, bottom-line (not inferior) mills they are a lot cheaper than the bigger mills that are designed to cut more boards quicker.

If you have one, you are in business.  If you have one of the bigger mills, then you have a bunch of engineering and fabricating to do. :D

[Minnesota_boy]

I've cut a whack of 8X8 from 22 to 32 feet long.  The problem I see with 12X12 is handling the weight to get them on the mill, getting them turned, and getting them off again.

[Ianab]

A while back the Peterson guys posted some pics of sawing (I think ) some 60 ft logs for ship masts. As Tom suggested the clever part was the manual mill with an extreme track extension laying on the ground. The only tricky part would be handling the log. Maybe a tractor / loader hydralic grapple to load / turn the log and remove the beam once it's cut?

I expect if I set up my mill around a 45ft+ log my usual offloaders would run for the hills  :D

[Gilman]

I have a WM 40 Super.  So I'd be getting the 24' bed extension.  I was thinking about building a I beam loading deck.

[RacinRex]

If the market is solid and going to be there for a while for something like that perhaps buying an LT15 or similar manual model just for doing those beams is in line. With the investement and then the cost (time) to setup for the job each time between other custom jobs... wouldn't it be easier (in a perfect world) to just walk over and throw the cover off from the LT15 and work it for a day without ever changing a setup...  walk back to your 40 Super and go back to what you were doing?

I don't know, I'm young and don't know much but I'm trying to think.  ;)

[Minnesota_boy]

RacinRex,
Can I come watch you turn the cants of a 30 foot log that can make a 12X12 on the manual mill without a log turner?  The log turner on my LT-40 will usually turn the 32 foot logs I get, but now and then I have to help it a bit with the cant hook.

[Tom]

Eat mo' GRITS ! :D

[RacinRex]

I'll tell ya what... My father in-law watched as I turned a 20' log a few times and ended up with a 16"x16" cant when it came square. I believe if you do the math you'll find the volume of that cant was more than that of a 12x12" 30'. This was by myself... With two off bearers of my choice I could certianly do such a job, for the next few years anyways. :-)

Being 26 yrs of age and a 6'1", 240lb farmboy helped when I was moving this.

TOOO FUNNY MR. TOM  :D :D :D  

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Cut a few big long sticks on Wanda with her bed extension on.  With long large logs I put the butt to the front so I and shave off all the short boards and the hydralics will still flip it over.  If I have to adjust for taper I use the tractor that loaded the log to lift it up and shim with boards and wedges.  A 12x12x30 will weigh about 1,800 lbs so a loader will be needed for off loading as will as loading.   I have done several 6x12x30's and it takes about a 15 inch log to produce and it is something to move around.  It takes longer to saw then you think and there is the side wood and slabs that need taking care of.  I charge extra for long stuff and there is a hefty set up fee if I take the extension on the road.  Takes about 45 min with mods to set up and 20 to get Wanda road ready again.
ARKANSAWYER

[Gilman]

Thanks for all the input.  I would be at the customer's location for months, possibly over a year.  I'll try and meet with him again tomorrow and get a few more details like support equipment.

[Vermonter]

I just milled 6-30' 8"x 8" and 10 20' two weeks ago.  It takes a very nice log to get that kind of length, it was the nicest pile of spruce I have ever seen.  I also pulled 2" x 8" from the edges of the log, boxing the heart for the beams.  I borrowed a set of tracks from another Peterson owner, and set them up "lo-lo.  Setup took extra time.  When I released the beam, I let it stay in place and then made the last vertical cuts before moving the beam.  They weighed a lot less than I had anticipated, and we moved them with a loader.  By cutting the vertical cuts before moving the cant, the log didn't move.  I then moved the last slab to the side and reloaded it when I flattened the next log.  I'm digitizing some photos this week, I'll try to post them when I get a chance.
BTW, three of us set up on Saturday morning, finished Sunday at 4:00pm.  We cut about 1600bdft on Saturday, and 2100bdft on Sunday.  Those beams really add up quick.

[Carl_Peterson]

Hello Gilman,

A couple of months ago I cut two 50' beams for the New Zealand Maratime Museum to be made into ships masts.  One was 10" X 10" and the other was 12 by 12.  This was done on a 10" Peterson manual mill with 27 hp Kohler motor.  The 10 by 10 was a piece of cake.  No trouble handling the log or the squared mast with a hefty forklift.  The 12 by 12 was a bit challenging.  I first had to take the top off the log, along with a very long 10 by 2 to flatten the log top.  I then took both sides off, including 2 inch stock to a depth of 10 inches.  This is where it got interesting.  We then had to lift and turn the log flat side down, carefully center the log on the skids, flatten the top with the blade in horizontal position to achieve the 12 inch depth thickness, and then saw off the "wings" with the vertically orientated blade.  In short, with the 10 inch mill I can cut four 10 by 10s in the time it takes to cut one 12 by 12.  Now, cutting 10 by 12 or up to 10 by 20 requires only a simple double cutting process (coming in from both sides), but the 12 by 12 exceeds the possible depth of the vertical cut on the Peterson.  Check out if your beam buyer can accept beams that are 10 by anything up to 20".  If so, the Peterson is your winner.  Once the log is placed on the skids there is no turning required until the finished timber is ready for removal.  

The added advantage with this mill is that it also makes an awsome production saw, and in spite of manual operation is quite easy to operate for extended periods.  Last year (at the age of 57) myself and one tailout person cut and tallied 5000 board foot of 6 by 1 1/2 macrocarpa in a private one day job after a show.  Mind you, I knew that I had done something at the end of the day, but my tailout man was a whole lot more tuckered out than I was.  Somebody's got to stack all that timber no matter what cuts it, manual or automatic!  So, don't think yer gonna get out of work by buying an automatic mill!  The operator may fill better at the end of the day, but not the stacker!

So, my advice to you is: you don't have to have two mills to do two jobs.  Get one mill that does both properly.

Carl Peterson

[Jim_Rogers]

Gilman:
You've already got a good mill in that LT 40 Super. Now if you get that job or deal, buy a 24' bed extension and have it set up as a trailer. That way you can move it from job to job in the future.
A fellow has one like that here in MA and he uses it for a trailer to deliver lumber when it's not hooked up to the mill.
He also added a another set of loader arms and home made hydraulics that ran on another battery down that end and it seemed to work ok for him.
Good luck and I hope you get the job.
Jim Rogers

[Gilman]

Thanks all, I appreciate your input.

Well, here goes... splash! I met with the mill manager today after doing my homework and will be starting Nov. 9th. The first order will be for 150 - 12 x 12 x 30' beams.  They'll do the loading & unloading, I'll trim the slabs down to 16' to go to their resaw.

There is a some what damaged WM 40 frame for sale in town.  I need to take some string, a level and a square and see how damaged it is.  I think it just the bunks but want to make sure the frame isn't twisted. If the frame is bent I can heat straighten it, but removing twists are out of my heat straightening skills.  If it is too damaged I'll have to go with a new bed extension.

I think my biggest drawback will be with the mill loading and unloading the logs.  If all goes well, I'd like to set the extension up with a set of loading arms and rolling toe boards.  I'd have them deck the logs and I'd offload the cants using the board return and rolling toe boards.

Any more advice would still be appreciated.

Oh, if they cause any equipment damage they will either repair it, or replace.

[TN_man]

Gilman, Congradulations on winning the work and good luck with the extension project. 8)

Carl Peterson,
How did you go about lining the log up to cut the "wings" off of the 12x12 and were you able to do it without leaving a line that needed to be sanded down later? Also, then were you able to assume that the other side was also lined up for the second cut? BTW, I was able to meet Craig and Chris last weekend and enjoyed our visit.   Jeff

[Minnesota_boy]

I had a set of stands made with rollers on top to bring the cants off the mill and onto the ground for the company to take away.  They want them in bundles of 10, with stickers between the two layers of 5 and I'm able to unload the cants and make up the bundles by myself.  I also have to cut the slabs and have bought a small saw to do just this job.  If you would like, I can send you some pictures of the roller stands and let you know how they work.  

[Jim_Rogers]

Gilman:
When I'm unloading a finished long beam of my mill and bed extension, I raise the cant up off the mill bed rails using the toe board rollers,  so that the fork lift will fit under the cant and not hit any part of the mill bed.
If you have only the mill toe board rollers and none on the bed extension you could create a temporary roller. And then lift your finished beam up with the end roller of the mill only, this will make it like a see-saw, and press down on the cant at the mill hitch end, lifting the far end up enough to slide a temporary roller onto a bed rail on the bed extension and then lower the cant onto it. This will hold the finished cant up enough for them to move it off the mill with a fork lift. Once the finished cant is removed you simply removed the temporary roller, and start a new log.
If you can envision what I mean.
Also, if you get this other frame and it doesn't have any toe board rollers you could have them load the logs with the butt end over the bed extension and do all your taper adjustments on the mill hitch end toe board roller.
I normally load all my logs with the small end of the log towards the hitch end of the mill for planning out what will be cut from the log.
I understand Arkansawyer's method of loading the butt end towards the hitch end when doing a extra long log that is longer than your mill, without an extension, and I agree with him that this method works. I personally haven't done that, yet. But I will use that method when I need to.
Good luck with your new job and let us know how it goes.
Jim Rogers

[Gilman]

Thanks for the input,

By what I've read, you can roll a 30' log iff you have the butt end on the main frame.  Since I don't yet have hydraulics on the bed extension I was think of the following.

 - Place the log butt end toward the operator
 - Place a riser of about 3 1/2" on the bunk at the small end of the log.  This will raise the pith of the small end of the log higher than the butt end.
 - Use the hydraulic toe boards on the main frame to adjust pith height.

Anyone try this?  If so, how did it work?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Having never done anything over 24', I would be VERY interested in that LT40 bent frame. If you have to, cut it where it's bent and re-weld it. Use a tight string to get close and adjust yer bunks. It might have the rollers on the tilt toe boards. It might even have the hydraulics.   I can picture that being a slick set-up.

[Tom]

The only thing I have to say is  Be Careful.  An eight foot log will kill you.  A 40 foot log could turn you into a grease spot.  Logs don't even bounce, they just crush whatever is under them.  Please don't let it be your leg.

On the subject of log weight, I guess I have another thing to mention.  When you set up the mill, and especially the extension, Make sure of a firm foundation. Once the log is on the mill is no time to be trying to straighten the mill back up.

Good luck.  I sure want to see pictures.

[Gilman]

Tom,
I'll definitely keep that in mind.  I don't have a favorite leg or foot, I like them all equilly.  

Deadheader,
Nope, no toe boards or hydraulics.  I think they were stripped to be used on the 6 x 6 square tubing permanent frame the mill built.  I'll post some pictures of both setups once I'm on site.

I figure if my productivity is too slow I'll just work till the mill extension is paid off and move on.  You guys were right about the 6 months to start getting business.  I've had three potential customers stop by this week.  

I stopped by a Mighty Mite owner's place and talked to him for about an hour on Monday.  Wednesday he calls and says he has a customer that needs 20' beams and if I could saw them.  His Mighty Mite saws 16 or 18' max, can't remember.  It paid off to be friendly with my local competitors.  

[Bruce_A]

Gilman, can you tell me what size mighty mite your competitor has.  They are a great mill also.

[Gilman]

I don't know the sizes of the mighty mites.  It about a 1985?

[ElectricAl]

Gilman,

Good job landing the saw job. ;D

We sawed for 2 years in a loggers log yard. Inventory never got below 50,000'.

It was our choice what to saw. Picked 18" to 30" and let the rest get shipped out.

An order for some 30' White Oak came in and the logger wanted us to saw it on our LT40HD. I told him we were too busy making him money sawing Cherry.
Logger brought in another Standard LT40HD for the job. The plan was to use a log loader truck to move the long log back and forth to make the 12" x 12" x 30' stick.
The first one went pretty smooth. On the second one, they had two flat sides and were reloading for the third slab when the loader guy had a brain fart. A 20" thirty footer dropped about 2.5'  onto the WM.  
$4500 later they tried it again,         with a different loader guy.
Smooth sailing the rest of the way