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Outside air kits

Started by Northern Logger, February 10, 2016, 09:25:08 AM

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Northern Logger

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a wood stove would have to be designed around an outside air kit for it to work.  The draft control on wood stoves I've seen are all on the front, making any connection to an outside air path irrelevant.  In other words, the fire would be feed by the inside air regardless of any outside air kit connected to the stove.

If there are wood stoves on the market that only draw on outside air to feed the fire, I'd like to see them.  Otherwise, it just seems like a scam.  No?

Farmerjw

It is only my personal opinion but always thought a wood stove worked better in an old home than in one of these new energy efficient homes only due to drafts or lack of drafts in a new house. 
Premier Bovine Scatologist

Stephen1

Any device that burns needs air. If you bring air into your building directly or close to the device, you restrict drafts into your home. They have to get air from somewhere. After ignition the air goes up the chimeny. That air has to come from somewhere.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Raider Bill

About the only good thing about my englander stove [never buy one!] is it has a outside air intake in the back. The rest of the stove is a piece of crap.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

47sawdust

I've got a Hearthstone Mansfield wood stove that I installed a factory outside air intake on.The difference in performance was really noticeable.The stove has a glass door and was a pain to keep clean before,now I clean the glass maybe every 6 weeks.As was noted by drawing in outside air directly to the stove you reduce drafts.I've heated with wood for over 40 years and this is the best stove around in my opinion.The heat is steady and even and the top provides a great cooking/warming surface.
It has been noted in other posts on this subject that if your air intake is exposed to high wind conditions it might create a back draft,so some thought should be given to this.Mine is a 3'' pipe which terminates under a porch.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Windy_Acres

Ive got a "Woodstock", soap stone hydrid. We heat a 2400sqf 2 story with it, very comfortably. It has provisions, and included duct work, for fresh air.

My house was built in 1904. I took it down to the studs on both sides, re-sheathed it, re-sided it with 7" lap boards, open cell foam sprayed the whole place, including the bottom of the first floor. Re-rocked the entire house, sealed the bottom of each piece of rock from the basement. I caulked/foamed ever edge, corner, penetration inside and out. I went way overboard to seal this place.

22 brand new high end custom made windows, new front door, sealed this place up like a submarine, better and tighter than any spec home.

I do not use the fresh air kit, here's why,...22 brand new ( construction style/flanged and caulked windows, properly flashed with vycor and house wrap ) windows leak air, like you would just not believe. I also sit in the middle of several thousand acres of tillable farm land ( no trees near the house area is flatter than a pancake ), and just under the jet stream, that is to say, you now understand my user name here.

So, to my point, before worrying about fresh air for a wood stove, dont overlook the actual load of fresh air your house might be taking in, on any given day.

I only know how bad the windows leaked, when we covered them with plastic sheathing, to spray foam the walls, the plastic sheeting blew up like a balloon.

The windows leak air through the seals of the sashes, not around the outside of the frames. This place breathes like a " corn crib " much to my chagrin.

As far as pulling a draft, never a problem with my stove, and I even have 1- 90 degree elbow and two 45's degree elbows, and the chimney is 20' tall to get through the house, about 26' long overall.

Im just glad the woodstove has no problem over coming the fresh air load, even down to -20 F ( static ), I can keep the house at 80 degrees, with no problem.

Northern Logger

I suppose I did not make myself clear in my OP.  I'm not asking for opinions on whether or not a fresh air kit works.

I want to know if there is a wood stove on the market that will draw only outside air, in other words, the wood stove draft for indoor air can be closed-off completely to allow only outside air to fuel the fire?

Raider Bill

The only intake on mine is in the rear so it's easy to vent and designed to draw outside air. You don't have to but they made it easy.
Its a englander, don't buy one.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

47sawdust

Northern Logger,
The air intake I described is the only air intake for the stove,so I would say yes the Hearthstone Mansfield will run solely on outside air.They may have other stove models that do as well.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Windy_Acres

Quote from: Northern Logger on February 10, 2016, 03:34:39 PM
I suppose I did not make myself clear in my OP.  I'm not asking for opinions on whether or not a fresh air kit works.

I want to know if there is a wood stove on the market that will draw only outside air, in other words, the wood stove draft for indoor air can be closed-off completely to allow only outside air to fuel the fire?

I thought I made myself pretty clear, first sentence of my post..

and I quote " Ive got a "Woodstock", soap stone hydrid. We heat a 2400sqf 2 story with it, very comfortably. It has provisions, and included duct work, for fresh air. "

blackfoot griz

I had a Quadra fire stove that was designed for either. To add the outside air, it required cutting a hole through the floor into the crawlspace. I did it and it made quite a difference. The only downfall is  that it made it a little more difficult  starting the fire. I also modified a fan/blower that brought in outside air and circulated the outside air around the stove. In essence, it pressurized the old house and really cut down on the drafts.

Northern Logger

Quote from: Windy_Acres on February 10, 2016, 07:15:38 PM
Quote from: Northern Logger on February 10, 2016, 03:34:39 PM
I suppose I did not make myself clear in my OP.  I'm not asking for opinions on whether or not a fresh air kit works.

I want to know if there is a wood stove on the market that will draw only outside air, in other words, the wood stove draft for indoor air can be closed-off completely to allow only outside air to fuel the fire?

I thought I made myself pretty clear, first sentence of my post..

and I quote " Ive got a "Woodstock", soap stone hydrid. We heat a 2400sqf 2 story with it, very comfortably. It has provisions, and included duct work, for fresh air. "

Indeed you did, and hijacked the OP too.  Thanks.  :-\

Raider Bill

The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

Windy_Acres

Quote from: Northern Logger on February 11, 2016, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: Windy_Acres on February 10, 2016, 07:15:38 PM
Quote from: Northern Logger on February 10, 2016, 03:34:39 PM
I suppose I did not make myself clear in my OP.  I'm not asking for opinions on whether or not a fresh air kit works.

I want to know if there is a wood stove on the market that will draw only outside air, in other words, the wood stove draft for indoor air can be closed-off completely to allow only outside air to fuel the fire?

I thought I made myself pretty clear, first sentence of my post..

and I quote " Ive got a "Woodstock", soap stone hydrid. We heat a 2400sqf 2 story with it, very comfortably. It has provisions, and included duct work, for fresh air. "

Indeed you did, and hijacked the OP too.  Thanks.  :-\

Not so much, I answered the question, and then elaborated on the logistics.

To hijack, would have been to taken it in another direction, or asked other question which would have or could have in another direction.

It is a forum, and others read your posts down the line ( chronologically ), I shared my experience, which I found negates the need for fresh air, and the point was to share, that even when you might think you have a tight house where fresh air could or might be necessary, in reality it may not. Not the case for you, I shared too much, my bad.

Pardon my "hijack", I will make point of not posting in any thread you may start in the future.

beenthere

Windy_Acres
Now don't let yourself be pushed around... appreciate your info as it is valuable or of interest to others.  ;)

No point in trying to defend a post... IMO
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

martyinmi

Quote from: Raider Bill on February 10, 2016, 10:08:35 AM
About the only good thing about my englander stove [never buy one!] is it has a outside air intake in the back. The rest of the stove is a piece of crap.
Sooo...I'm getting mixed signals here Bill.

You do or do not like your stove?  ;)

Be strong. Have an opinion just this once. :D :D

No God, No Peace
Know God, Know Peace!

47sawdust

Every member of the forum has ADD.There has never been a post that didn't wander off topic,sometimes it comes back to the original post,frequently goes to the land of grits and beyond.When a person creates a post and sends it out you have no control over what is gonna happen.It is best to just go along for the ride and have a sense of humor.

Raider Bill,
The Super Bowl is right around the corner,maybe you could do a commercial about Englander stoves.Tell it like it is,don't sugar coat it!

Marty,Happy Birthday
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

r.man

Wasn't the superbowl last week end? That is a hijack. Gotta have a bit of a thick skin or your feelings are going to be hurt a lot. Besides, almost all longer threads end up on something else for at least a while, mostly food.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

r.man

Not paying enough attention, happy birthday from the north Marty.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

r.man

Back to the topic, if a person really wanted to lots of wood stoves could be fairly easily adapted to outside combustion air. I can envision a set up for a front or side draft stove with either threaded controls or hinged draft doors. Would probably add to the ugly but you can't have everything. What hasn't been mentioned here is that on days with little wind a house might have fewer air changes per day if the flame type heating appliance used outside combustion air.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

47sawdust

r.man,
I had a similar thought about adding an air intake to a stove using a 3'' blast gate from a dust collecting system.Yes the Super Bowl was last week-end,meant to be a lame joke.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

beenthere

IIRC
My Vermont Castings stove had a kit for feeding outside air.

I chose not to use it, as I didn't want to deal with a vent penetrating the wall to reach that outside air. Having to vent the dryer is enough wall penetration, IMO
Bringing in cold air causes condensation when it hits a warm surface, which leads to mold, and/or rust.
I'm good with the way the VC stove heats my room(s) with whatever air is available.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

47sawdust

My air intake is a 3'' metal pipe.I've never had condensation problems with it,maybe some do.I have a friend with a pellet stove and in below zero weather the intake would frost right up.Every situation is different and what works for me might not work for someone else.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

r.man

47 I am Canadian so I don't have a sense of humour. And yes, humour is spelled correctly. I wouldn't have caught the superbowl date thing except my wife mentioned that she was getting all sorts of superbowl links etc for last weekend. I am not a sports follower of any kind but a football game in February seems particularly odd when there is always snow on the ground and it tends to be the coldest month of the year.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

John Mc

Quote from: Windy_Acres on February 10, 2016, 01:12:10 PM
I only know how bad the windows leaked, when we covered them with plastic sheathing, to spray foam the walls, the plastic sheeting blew up like a balloon.

The windows leak air through the seals of the sashes, not around the outside of the frames. This place breathes like a " corn crib " much to my chagrin.

If that's happening, either your windows have some serious design problems, or you've got a problem with a significant negative pressure in your home. I have an incredibly tightly built house (as verified by a blower door test). Even with my heat recovery ventilation system shut down and sealed off, I don't get anything like that kind of leakage around the seals of my window sashes.

I've seen homes with great windows that were poorly installed which leaked around the frames (the installer never sealed them up), but nothing like what you describe with significant leakage around the sash seals.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Tom L

I have a pacific energy summit wood stove, with the outside air kit,
I ran a 3" flex pipe out of the air intake thru the clean out box in my fireplace and insulated the outside opening, the kit installs under the back of the stove. with screws and some insulation
it only draws outside air into the stove and then exhausts  out the chimney

has worked very well for us , not using any air from inside the house to heat the house

Oldman47

My Napoleon stove draws its combustion air from the ash drawer area. That area is open to the back of the stove unless you install the OAK. When the OAK is installed, there is a close off plate that goes over the back opening and the OAK is piped into the area of that ash drawer. Other brands do things differently but all of the ones that are designed to use an outside air kit have a way of connecting it so that it actually uses the outside air. I would not call it a scam at all but I am sure that many homes are not air tight enough to actually require an OAK. I guess if your home is leaky enough you might consider an OAK a scam for you.
X27, Stihl 026, Husky 555 AT

John Mc

If you home is built all that tight (as mine is) then you really should have some sort of ventilation system in it - such as a heat recovery ventilation system. If you have that and it's properly set up, there is no need for an outside air kit on your wood stove: You are getting plenty of air exchange already.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Northern Logger

Quote from: Tom L on February 12, 2016, 09:30:26 AM
I have a pacific energy summit wood stove, with the outside air kit,
I ran a 3" flex pipe out of the air intake thru the clean out box in my fireplace and insulated the outside opening, the kit installs under the back of the stove. with screws and some insulation
it only draws outside air into the stove and then exhausts  out the chimney

has worked very well for us , not using any air from inside the house to heat the house

If the only source of air for the fire is from the OAK for your stove, how do you regulate the draft?  Or do you not need to regulate the draft with an OAK?  I'm assuming that the draft control on the front of your stove is only for regulating the use of inside air and has no control over the OAK.  Am I wrong here?

Btw, I appreciate that you have understood and tried to answer my question.  It was a question to do with the design/engineering of stoves with an OAK and how the draft is controlled with an OAK, not whether OAK kits "work" or work in this or that kind of house, etc.

Tom L

the oak kit bolts onto the same place as any incoming air would come from
inside or outside the house ,the panel is open, with a kit, you put a plate with a  flange adaptor over the intake hole
the flex pipe or any other type of pipe you want to use, attaches to the flange with some sheet metal screws,
you regulate the fire by the slide control at the front of the stove as usual
with this stove design, it takes the intake air up the back of the stove, then over a perforated plate,then towards the glass front , then to the front of the fire, it always burns from front to back
when it gets hot enough, and you back off of the intake air, it re burns the gasses as they rise in the fire box.(blue flame shoot down towards the wood) so hardly any smoke comes out of the chimney

I do have an ash drawer on the bottom of the stove, the air intake hole is just behind the ash drawer and does not interfere with the drawer.


John Mc

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

isaaccarlson

An outside air kit worked for our lopi.

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