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Is my pump going/shot?

Started by logman81, February 04, 2016, 04:12:22 PM

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logman81

Ok over the last four months I've noticed the hydraulics getting slower and less powerful in my gafner skidder. It is full of oil and their is no filter in the system so it's not a clogged filter. Both the blade and steering are getting very slow I have to really rev up the engine to make it do anything. Could my pump be gone?
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jocco

You may check out but you will never leave

logman81

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sandsawmill14

could be a relief valve bypassing but most likely the pump i have had one relief valve stick open but i have had several pumps go bad :) may just be my luck though ::)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

beenthere

Why no filter?
Maybe some debris that would have been caught by the filter has caused a problem in the pump?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

logman81

No sure why, can't see a filter in the suction or the pressure lines. The tank is part of the transmission and share the same oil.
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sandsawmill14

it probably has a permanent filter/metal screen inside the housing somewhere :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

deastman

I would try to find a place somewhere in the hydraulic system to tap into with a pressure guage to see what you have for pump pressure.
Samsung 130 LCM-3 with Fabtek 4-roller and Cat 554 forwarder, Cat EL 180 excavator, Cat D3C dozer, Cat D7E dozer, '92 Ford LTL 9000 dump, Easy-2-Load 25 Ton tag-a-long, current project under construction: '91 Peterbilt 379 with a Hood 8000 w/extenda-boom loader

logman81

That's what I'm going to do, buy a pressure gauge and T into the line coming from the pump.
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snowstorm

the best way to test a pump is with a load flow meter. you can load the pump while seeing the gpm psi and temp. on a worn pump as the load goes up so dose the temp and the gpm goes down. the oil slipes between the gears an the housing that makes heat and on and on until you replace

Holmes

  My old Zetor tractor would do that. It had a magnetic screen filter attached to a drain type plug, with a built in shutoff. The screen would get plugged with metal filings and slow down the hydraulics almost to  not working at all.
Think like a farmer.

madmari

I had a pump go on my old International S7. You'll know it if it's just the pump. Got pretty noisy, slowed a little, but not a lot. More apt to think it's flow restriction.
  The C4 Tree Farmer has no filter either. I had a shaft to the pump that was worn and that little bit of wear slowed the hydraulics noticeably. New, tight shaft and Wow! fast hydraulics again.
  Good luck.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

logman81

I don't think I have play in the shaft splines and I don't hear any pump wine.
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madmari

Another problem I had was a plugged breather cap on the hydraulic tank. That little issue was an easy fix and stopped the noise I was getting.
I know why dogs stick thier head out the car window.

Corley5

Tighten the spring in relief valve until you can hear the pump loading the engine.  Then back it off a bit  ;)  See if that makes a difference.  Sometimes you can get some more life out of a worn out pump.  Plumb a filter in after you get the problem solved.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

logman81

We're would I look for the relief valve be I only see a valve bank?
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Corley5

If there's not one between the pump and the valve bank it's part of the valve bank.  Does the oil on your machine go to the steering valve before it goes to the blade valve?  I think on my Mule the relief was part of the steering valve :-\ and then the oil went to the loader valves.  My C4 Forwarder's is mounted on the firewall and then oil goes to the blade/steering bank and the loader.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Corley5

If you do tighten up the relief remember to reset it if you replace the pump  ;) :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

logman81

Thanks ill look closer tomorrow,  I do believe that the relief valve you spec of is integrated into the control bank. I feel it's either that or the pump is just about dead. If it is the pump I'll have to find a replacement.
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Corley5

Surplus Center for a replacement.  That's where I've gotten them for the Iron Mule and Tree Farmer.  It's more than likely your pump is worn.  Tightening up the relief may keep you producing while you source a new pump.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

sandsawmill14

tightening the relief valve will not help if the pump is worn out as the pump is already not  building enough pressure to open the relief valve :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

logman81

Corley do you know what the flow requirements should be for the pump?
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Corley5

Worked on my Tree Farmer for a while  :)  That's what the owner of the hydraulic shop told me to try until my new pump came in.  Worked better for a few days but wasn't a cure  :)  That pump was toast.  It was a Cessna and the gears wore into the housing beyond the plates.  That's what happens when an operator can't operate a dipstick and adds oil when it quits working  >:(
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Corley5

  I have no idea what they'd be for that machine.  Surplus Center has a calculator to determine what your current pump's specs are.
  Tightening up the relief won't hurt if it doesn't help  ;) ;D 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

sandsawmill14

something else to think about is a blown cylinder. i had that happen on my backhoe and the pieces of the seal went through the system was a real pain to figure out >:( had a piece of it stuck in a valve
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

logman81

When I get back over to the machine after the snow storm I'll take some pics and turn the relief screw in till I hear the motor change and see if that helps.  I don't believe it's a bad cylinder that caused it. The whole system is very sluggish and this has happened over time getting progressively worse. I did run it extremely low on oil to the point where it was doing the same thing. I put oil in and it started working again for a while about two months,  now I have no pressure unless I throttle it way up. I'm wondering if I killed the pump?
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Corley5

Gear pumps are more forgiving than vane or piston pumps but none of them handle cavitation well.  Your pump is more than likely done for.  I was going to post a link to Surplus Center's pump sizing calculator but can't open their site this morning.  Google won't work here either :-\
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

sandsawmill14

Quote from: logman81 on February 05, 2016, 08:52:54 AM
When I get back over to the machine after the snow storm I'll take some pics and turn the relief screw in till I hear the motor change and see if that helps.  I don't believe it's a bad cylinder that caused it. The whole system is very sluggish and this has happened over time getting progressively worse. I did run it extremely low on oil to the point where it was doing the same thing. I put oil in and it started working again for a while about two months,  now I have no pressure unless I throttle it way up. I'm wondering if I killed the pump?

most likely
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

logman81

That's not what I want to hear but it looks pretty easy to replace.
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Corley5

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

logman81

Thanks once I get the pump off I'll see if I can get it apart and measure it.
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OntarioAl

Just a thought before you install the new pump check the suction side right back to the tank. Things to look for are blockage or a partial collapse of the intake hose, look for an in tank screen that might be partially blocked.
I find it hard to believe that some one would design a hydraulic system an not have some form of protection keeping crud out of the system.
Al
Al Raman

logman81

Yeah I'm going to take the top cover of the transmission off and see if it's in there.
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logman81

Ok guys I'm back at the skidder. I started it up and at a idle I have pressure to the hydraulics when the oil is cold with decant speed out of the pistons. Is it the pump?
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logman81

There is no screen or strainer in either the suction or return line. I even pulled the cover off the transmission and stuck my hand in there and couldn't find anything.
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s grinder

I know you checked the suction line,the suction side of pump the might have a screen in it.If you take the line off,maybe the line is collasped.One last thing,i would hook up a line from suction side of pump to a 5 gallon can and see how your hyd. and steering works.That would eliminate all prospects.

OntarioAl

logman81
Hydraulic oil at operating temp and  a pressure gauge will pin down whether it is the pump or not.
I still find it hard to believe that your machine does not have some sort of filtration to protect the hydraulic system and the transmission. Is there nay indication that in the past somebody re-plumbed the system and turfed the filter(s)?
Al
Al Raman

logman81

It has a steel line with a short piece of rubber hose connecting it to the pump. To the best of my knowledge it is the original pump cause it still has some of the original color paint on it.
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logman81

 

  

 
Here is the pics of pump and valve bank.
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logman81

I think before I take the pump off I'm going to make a pressure gauge to get a read on what pressure I'm getting to the cylinder.
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logman81

What's the proper procedure to test the pressure?
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Corley5

Did you check the pump driveline?  There isn't a compromised key or spline that's slipping?  That's a longshot but it could be.  I had issues with misalignment with my Mule that I finally solved by putting in a Lov-Joy Coupler.  It would wear out splines and start slipping.  Don't lose too much time diagnosing when a couple hundred dollar pump will solve your problem  ;) :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

logman81

No slipping that I can see or hear.  I started it first thing this morning and had pressure probably do to the oil being thick. Once warm is when the problem is occurring.
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MikeZ

Are you sure the short section of hose isn't being sucked shut as operating temp increases. Old hoses tend to degrade with time. Just a thought.
MikeZ  Homemade  Mill

logman81

Yup very sure of that it is only about four inches long and is actual suction hose.
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s grinder

Does it have a trans filter/filters?

logman81

Nope standard trans. Once this storm blows over I'm going to get the parts to rig up a pressure gauge to check the pressure,  that should tell me everything I need to know.
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s grinder

On one of your pictures,looks like you have a tag on that pump.Maybe the manufacture, serial number?

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: logman81 on February 07, 2016, 08:50:22 PM
Yup very sure of that it is only about four inches long and is actual suction hose.

Just because it is short and actual suction hose doesn't mean that it isn't collapsing internally.

On a tractor of mine I had an actual wire reinforced suction hose that looked perfect on the outside collapsed on the inside and caused some of the same symptoms.

logman81

Yes it does its a hydreco pump
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logman81

Had to order a pressure gauge from napa no one had one in stock. Then I'll make up a test gauge with a hydraulic line and a few fittings to test the pressure. I should be able to know exactly what it's doing in the next day or two.
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Corley5

You could have had a new pump to install in that same time.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

47sawdust

No harm in verifying the problem before you start.I've replaced quite a few electrical components on my tractor until I got to the real problem.Oh well,I just call it continuing education.
Good luck logman
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

logman81

Yeah no rush saw is in the shop getting diaged it's leaning out for some reason and still waiting for the guy that's buying the wood to come pick a load up so I can get paid to buy the new pump if that's what it is.
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logman81

Got the pressure gauge made up! 

 
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logman81

Well guys I pressure tested it this morning.  I plumbed it into one of the work ports that operates the blade.  I only got 1100 psi at the highest. I believe the relief valve is functioning as I can hear a squealing sound from the control valve.  What do think my problem is? Should I try turning in the relief valve to see if I get more pressure? In my opinion that is pretty low pressure for this machine.
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mad murdock

Is that a single stage pump?  Of so, I would think that you should be up at least 2,000.  If you have a book for it, see what spec is, though a good hydraulic shop should be able to tell you approximately what it should run.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

logman81

Single stage gear pump on my skidder
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logman81

No book for this rare skidder,  but yes I do agree I should be minimum of 1500 psi.
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kiko

Logman, if you hear the relief valve squealing when you get the blade all the way up or down that means your relief valve has opened off the seat at 1100psi.  From here it sounds like you have an issue with the relief valve rather than the pump.   Is the main relief adjustable?

logman81

Yes it is adjustable, I've been told to turn it up to 2500 psi.
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logman81

I'm still not sure that it isn't the pump.
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Corley5

You haven't tightened the relief yet  ??? ::)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

logman81

No not yet, a few people have said that if I do that I risk destroying the pump.
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kiko

You would risk damage to the pump by jacking the pressure up without a gauge. But you got that now.  Plumb the gauge into the blade up line, lift the blade to its stop, i believe this where you hear the relief squeal ,  note the pressure on the gauge.  You can turn the relief in say a half round and recheck the pressure,  or with an assistant you can turn the relief adjustment in while holding the blade lever in the up position.  if this changes nothing then i would consider checking the orings on the relief valve. Remember that the pump does not create pressure, only flow. Restriction of that flow is what creates the pressure. However the pump must be strong enough to withstand said pressure.  Take up to 2000 psi to begin with and see if that is enough for your needs, i would think 2500 would be the max.  Also does your control valve have port reliefs as well as a main or does just have a main? 

logman81

Ok I will do that and see what happens with a helper. It only has the one main relief for the whole system.
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logman81

Just pulled the pump, it's a splined shaft and it's not striped. It appears to be a pretty standard two bolt gear pump.  I figured just replace it to eliminate that being the problem.  Plus I would like to step up the gpm a little for faster hydraulic cylinder speed.
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logman81

Well in my opinion the pump internals look ok to me. I think I'll take it to a hydraulic shop and have them examine it to be sure it's ok.

  

  

 
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beenthere

All that scoring on both parts doesn't look a bit excessive to you?

Maybe a filter wasn't doing its job ?? just wondering....
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

logman81

I'm not sure how excessive it is or what's tolerable. I don't have a filter that I can find in the system.
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logman81

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kiko

I still dont think that is all the problem, but that pump looks like is toast to me. Gouges especially in the center where the gears meet will connect the suction and discharge side, and  will cause pressure loss.  i would think about installing a filter in the return line prior to tank.

Corley5

That pump's shot.  Save your money don't bother taking it to a shop.  Take your relief valve there instead and have it checked and resealed.  Order a new pump from Surplus Center.  A hydraulic shop typically can't beat their prices.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

logman81

Yeah time for a new one, hopefully that solves the problem!
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OntarioAl

logman81
Your system is contaminated with particles of crud, Do like kiko suggests and install a return line filter. You might seriously consider draining and flushing your transmission and  new oil.
Al 
Al Raman

logman81

When I first got the machine I flush and put new oil in it. I think this pump was damaged way before I got the skidder. To me it looks as though someone tried to fix the problem by installing new rotors at one point. Time for a new pump. I may even remove the valve bank and have it rebuilt.
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logman81

Well ordered a new prince pump 13 gpm  should fix the problem.
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logman81

Hopefully my problems are over and the pump was the issue I feel it was. Will know in a few days.
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timberlinetree

With a new pump that would be like a new machine! Its no fun having to rev to streer or raise the blade. Good luck with the fix and filter install.
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

logman81

Thanks I slammed a bunch of timber to the ground today to get ahead a little. I should have the pump by Thursday and be up and running by Friday morning.
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finding the trail

     When figuring the total cost of the pump,  include your lost production.    Ouch.   

logman81

Yes a little lost production. I'll make up for it once I'm back up and running.
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47sawdust

If a person were to worry about lost production due to breakdowns they might not get out of bed in the morning.If you are going to own machinery you are going to have breakdowns.Just hope to get up and running again in a timely manner and forget about it.Good service habits and preventative maintenance help but there are always surprises.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

logman81

Yup I don't worry to much about it. It comes with owning equipment but I usually don't have a break down cause I always do a pre and post check of all my equipment every day.
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logman81

Got the new pump, I'll be installing it tomorrow. 

 
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beenthere

Get a filter too?
Pump does look good.  8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

logman81

Back up and running thanks for the help everyone!
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chep

Glad you  are up and running.
But did you take any of the wise words passed on and install  a filter into your system?
Contamination is to easy, and you would be throwing  MO ey away  by not putting in a simple filter

logman81

Thanks chep, I'm down once again with a flat tire. Ordered a new one and will be back up and running once again by late tomorrow. If I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck!
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logman81

Dealing with more issues with the machine. Got a flat tire in the rear and had to order a new one. Went to take the wheel and tire off and a previous owner for some stupid reason welded the the inside of the wheel to the hub. So I have to have a tire guy come to change out the old tire for new one. Then went to start the machine up to move it for better access the starter literally exploded broke the nose of the starter in a few pieces and broke the other end to never a starter do that! Put a lot of money into this machine in the last three weeks not to mention the lost production it's cost me. Beginning to think I should send it packing but where am I going to find another machine this size. I'm stuck!
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Plankton

I know exactly what your talking about. I  went through the same thing with my skidder last two weeks literally one thing after another 4 different problems. Think about it this way unless you buy brand new you'll have to work out all the little things you've already done to yours on an unfamiliar machine.

Keep on trucking you'll get it pulling wood for you soon.

logman81

Yeah I've thought about a new Awassos mini skidder but at 100k it isn't in the budget so I'm just going to keep fixing the issues and run it!
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coxy

I feel your pain  but look at it this way by the time your done it will be almost new and you know what you have  :-\ ??? new junk brakes down too and a hell of a lot more money to fix and most of it you or i cant do anyway with out a computer  :) :)

logman81

How true and that is why I'm just going to keep fixing what's wrong with it and eventually the problems will be fixed.
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Logger RK

Speaking of new Eq. I'd heard a guy with a newer CTL machine changed a computer on his machine. A week later it burned. I told The Boys maybe it had the terminator chip in it? It calculates payment/production & wood price & took  the only way out? 8)

Corley5

  I'm on my way out to put a new fuel lift pump on my harvester.  It started leaking fuel externally and then started sucking air so it wouldn't run right.  After that we need to put the jib cylinder back on the Franklin forwarder.  It developed a crack around the base of the barrel and was spraying a mist of oil.  It had been poorly welded more than once before and required a lot of grinding to get it back to parent metal to get a good weld.  I think that's all that needs fixing today.  Something else will require attention shortly for sure  :)
  The joys of running old woods equipment ;D :)  Still better than having to support new stuff.  That's what I keep telling myself anyway  ;D :D
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

David-L

Had to pull the fan hub bearing today on the Cummins. Was starting to growl at me all the time. Always something. when I use to be into animal husbandry, cattle, sheep, goats. my motto was if you have live animals you will have dead ones eventually to. If you own equipment you"ll have broke equipment to. always hope for the best on breakdowns. good luck logman.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

logman81

Well thanks for cheering me up guys. All is well and back up and running, even better than when I first got it. Eventually it will be a like new machine. Still really like this skidder so I'm hanging on to it.
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