tough time getting my foot in the door

[jdw]

So I been spending some time on the phone trying  to find buyers for my lumber, seems I've hit a Brick wall they eaither want massive amounts or there skiddish of ( the new guy). This is a big set back any one have any advice on how to get your foot in the door with these places? :-[

[starmac]

What type of places are you contacting?

[sandsawmill14]

it is hard when dealing with less than tt load  :-\ but dont give up you will find someone. years ago when i sold my first pack of lumber (1mbdft) the buyer was telling me how it needed to be sawn for what grade how to sort and all kinds of stuff to make it seem hard as he could when he got finished i looked at him and i said how about i saw it stack it and load it on the truck and when it gets here you unload it grade it and mail me a check do you buy lumber like that?  he looked at me and grinned and said to send him all i wanted :D he bought every board i sawed until last november when he retired and they went to strictly buying ties for stella jones i still send them my ties

[jdw]

I've called every broker,kiln,hardwood flooring place I could find. That's within 200 miles of me.

[Oak hound]

There's a book titled How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie. I'm a soon to be aspiring sawyer, but for now I own a well testing company working mostly in Oklahoma. Getting there business may be less about what you have or what you offer than most people think.

[WV Sawmiller]

I've called every broker,kiln,hardwood flooring place I could find. That's within 200 miles of me.

   I'm no lumber salesman. I just sell a little from salvage and thinning on my property. I advertise in local trader papers then cut on demand so I can cut what customers want and need. No reason to cut a bunch of 4/4 maple if the customers need 6/4 oak or pine 2X4s.

   What kind of lumber are you cutting and what prompted you to cut that type? When you talked to the folks mentioned above did you ask them what they did need when they first turned you down? There may be a specialty niche in your area someone is missing that you could fill to get going and some name recognition then branch out from there.

   Good luck and don't get too discouraged. You never know - your next call may be right on the heels of the buyer getting a call for exactly what you can provide.

[beenthere]

I've called every broker,kiln,hardwood flooring place I could find. That's within 200 miles of me.

I wouldn't call. Too easy to ignore you. Make up some sample boards, and pay them a visit.

Similar to looking for a job. Go to the receptionist and ask to speak to the person who buys lumber. Get past that front desk as it is too easy to put you off. (If looking for a job, get to the person who hires)

Shouldn't have to go 200 miles to find a buyer, but think they would be interested in what you have to sell, how much volume, and what they can expect.

I was told, to pick 10 off your list, and visit all 10. Don't get discouraged by a few who say no, not interested. Ask them what it would take to do business.   Good luck..

[Ron Wenrich]

What kind of volume are you doing?  I never sold anything under a trailer load.  I mixed species to some of the buyers, but they wanted a minimum of 1 Mbf and no more than 3 species on a load.  If you're volume is low, that means you'll have to wait until you have a load sawn.  Works OK in the cool weather, and you may have to spray your lumber in the warmer season or you'll get degrade.

Not all buyers buy all types of hardwoods.  They're usually not interested in the lower valued species.  If you're sawing walnut, you probably won't have much problems moving the wood.  If you're trying to sell sycamore, then the problems are huge. 

The other thing is the types of grade you're sawing.  It's not hard for a buyer to get the low quality wood.  That's why the flooring guys are probably full with their current supply.  You would have to wait for a surge in housing starts or in export.  If you have good grades like 1 Com & Btr or F1F & Btr, then you'll get better results.  Also, when you talk to buyers, they want to know about grade.  If you don't have much knowledge in grade, you're going to be lost.

If you're sawing primarily low grade, you'll be hard pressed in finding grade buyers since your volume and quality is so low.  Your alternative is to go to the low grade market.  That would be mainly pallet producers, fencing companies, or the like.  We had a lot of luck with casket companies when we started.  There are several in your area. 

[Chuck White]

I agree with Beenthere, take a few boards or finished samples with you and go see the potential buyers!

[drobertson]

It can be tough getting in, and for some folks staying in,  heard a day or so ago one larger mill cut off some smaller mills, claiming they had too much inventory.  If you saw quality lumber it seems like even a bigger outfit would take less than a truck load if approached right.  Most will give descriptions on how they need the bundles, ex.  all RO, no mixing with WO , all the same length, 6's, 8's and so on and the board thicknesses, could range anywhere from 1" to 1-1/8". But need to be close to whatever the size is,  wave and thick and thins wont' be looked on very long.  First bundle ought to be a good one, and the rest the same.

[hunz]

For every 9 "no's", you'll get one " yes". You should thank the no's for getting you one step closer to your yes. Not giving up, and staying positive I'd how the most who make it do.

Everyone has a different approach to business, mine would be something like this....Meet your potential buyers in person, with an offer to personally deliver x amount of sample lumber(lets say 500bd/ft) free of charge. They have nothing to loose, and you have everything to gain should you gain their business long-term. Nobody remembers the guy from a phone call with promises of quality lumber arriving at their facility. Do something that stands out, and I'm sure that 500' you saw for free will soon be gone from your memory when you start getting checks in the mail.

I personally won't buy a bandsaw blade from a manufacturer, unless they offer a free sample. Someone who believes in their product, will take a hit upfront, for long-term rewards. Try it, and I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

Best of luck!

[outpost22]

I would agree with those that said see the potential buyer in person, not in a phone call.  I would also suggest that you approach them as not expecting them to make you their MAIN guy.  You would like to be an alternate supplier in case they need you. This takes the pushiness aspect out of your presentation.  Later you can BECOME their main guy if you prove it to them that you deserve it. I bought a lot of business this way in my industry years ago. Stress the service you can provide. Ask for their call if they find themselves in a bind and need "x".  Then provide it for them in a reasonable time.  Leave your business card with email contact and a brochure(s).  Show up in a presentable appearance and a plan of what you want to say. Answer their questions. If you don't know the answers, tell them you will find out the answer and let them know...then do it.  Don't make promises or delivery times you can't meet. Nobody is happy with that.  Get THEIR business card.  Send them and email or give them a call a week later and ask them if they have considered your offer(s).

Other options are to sell privately on Craigs List or other social media.  It's free and a way to move your product out there by WOM (Word of Mouth), the cheapest and best advertising.

[jdw]

Well picked up 2 pallet mills today 8) so all in all it was a pretty good day. Still no luck on the grade lumber gonna keep trying though.

[muggs]

When I was buying lumber. I would stop in a little town and go through the phone book. Also talk to guys at the gas station. Sometimes I bought a truck load, sometimes just a few hundred BF. If you go to the web site Woodweb, you can list your sawmill.     Bob

[beenthere]

muggs
To catch you up, you can list your sawmill on this forum. No need to have members chase off to another website.

[muggs]

Thanks for that info Been There, My point is , if I can't find you I can't buy from you.    8) 8)

[thecfarm]

We sold to a sawmill,they took anything. But they was really only sawing white pine and hemlock. Yes,we could of made more selling a truck load of maple or oak. But we was cutting on a small scale. We would only have 3-4 hardwood trees per load of pine. Than we sold about white birch log lenght. I talked to a few that thought that was a bad idea.  :  You can make so much more by cutting it into 56 inches. Have to measure each piece to get $10 more per thousand. So spend time making 2-3 more cuts and spend more time measuring,but make more money.
Good luck finding a buyer.

[Peter Drouin]

So, you must have a good supply of logs coming.
For me, it's just as hard to get logs as selling the wood.
If you find a place to sell lumber, and you run out of logs you're done.
The other thing is to have a bunch of money to buy 20 to 100,000 BF to look at. :D :D :D
It takes a lot of money to get logs in and if a truck shows up and you send him away. He won't come back.
Most loggers want to get paid in 7 days.



  

  

  

  

  

 

Then you want bigger trucks, then more trucks. then the big mills around you up the price, And you will have to meet that $$$.
Let the games begin. :D :D :D :D

[drobertson]

 And of course, we can always count on Peter, bless his heart to rub salt in the wound! ;D

[jdw]

Getting logs is no problem I got that covered. It the keeping every thing moving I'm worried about. 

[Peter Drouin]

And of course, we can always count on Peter, bless his heart to rub salt in the wound! ;D

What salt, getting in the sawmill biz you need money to buy logs. If you cut off your land, you will cut it off in no time.
Finding good loggers , Then you have to have a bunch not all will be cutting what you want. There on hardwood and you need solfwood.
I have some 20' hemlock coming. Still looking for W Oak.And with no snow and 50° it's not helping. :D :D
Going to need some W Pine too soon.
I work with 7 loggers. And sometimes that's not enuff. :D :D :D
And the other thing if your going with holesale, you better be cutting fast.
You will be working with penneys. you have to get the wood out to make $$$

[jdw]

So I'm guessing from what's being said here its not worth the trouble to cut and sale wholesale? If there ain't no money it that then what is the best market for grade lumber?

[YellowHammer]

What you are asking is really a business marketing question, and that's mainly how you solve the problem, by marketing your business, not necessarily by sawing wood.
   
I started from scratch in North Alabama, in an area full of sawmills, both large and small, so I know how difficult it is to break in.  Seems like everybody and their brother has a mill of some kind.  I like the old saying "Sometimes you just have to stop chopping wood and sharpen your axe."  Same thing with business startups, sometimes you have to stop sawing wood and spend time knocking on doors or otherwise promoting your business.

Its important to remember that it doesnt really matter too much what you want to sell, it only matters what people want to buy.  Once you get enough business, you can find and settle in on your niche.

Get professionally made business cards and hand them out.  Get a shirt with your logo, and put it on when you go trolling for new customers.  Be proud of your business, and show people you are a real business.  Look like you are a business.  Represent yourself to future customers as someone they can believe will stay in business.  Nobody wants to waste effort with a supplier who will not be reliable and answer the phone just when they began to rely on them.  I deal with suppliers in my business, we all do.  How a supplier represents themselves in the first few minutes determines how long I talk to them.  Its a mini job interview, plain and simple.  A shirt or business card doesn't make a business, but name me one "real" business, a lasting, professional one that doesn't "look" like a business?  I have my own hats with our logo on them, because I got tired of wearing other business's logos on my head, like Ford, John Deere, etc and when people ask who I am I take my hat off, show them the logo and say something like "See, I must be a real business, I've got a hat," and they'll laugh and we will start talking turkey.

Get a website, they are free, and describe everything you can do that is of value, besides "just" hardcore milling.  Can you retrieve logs off people's property?  Will you saw on site?  Do you custom saw?  Will you travel?  Saw slabs? Put it on the webpage and people will find it.  I am always surprised how many different jobs I get asked simply because companies, some very big, surf the web looking for new suppliers or subcontractors.  I've been called to build heavy equipment mats for trucking and crane companies, pallets for supply house, levee timbers in New Orleans, export hardwood lumber to Kentucky and overseas, all kinds of long range, lucrative business opportunities.  Some I accept, some I pass on.  They all found me with the website.  Today, websites are the Yellow Pages, its how businesses find other businesses.  I get many calls from customers who are many hundred miles away because big companies move big product, and distance isn't necessarily a concern for them.  They own fleets of trucks, have truckers, hire freight operations.  How are they going to find you?  If the customer wants your service they will come to you, but they have to find you first.  Its your job to make that possible.

Make an effort, (because it takes a LOT of effort) to get out and find the people who might want your business.  I enjoy hunting and fishing, and in many ways, hunting or fishing for customers is no different.   I used to drive up the highway and stop in every cabinet shop around and meet the owner.  Several turned into customers.  Networking and business exposure is important.  For example, I'm a charter member of the North Aabama Woodworkers Club even though I don't do much woodworking anymore.  Guess who sells the members most of their wood?  Guess who sells wood to their friends? Guess who saws their logs? Then the word of mouth thing takes hold and they refer other customers to me.  Find out where the farmers meet,  such as the local farmers COOP or extension office and setup a sawmill demo with the County Agent.  Offer to saw his logs for free at the demo if he can get farmers or stable owners to show up.

I donate wood to charitable organizations.  It feels good and people will say good things.  Right now I have a dump truck scheduled tomorrow to come pick up slabs for the Huntsville Botanical Garden to build forts and stuff for the kids.  In return, they put me in their newsletter, and every person who walks by the exhibits will know where the slabs came from.  People in the lumber business know that where there's slabs, there's wood, and they give me a call.  Visit the local COOP because farmers need barns, stables, fences, generally some pretty big building package orders.  Don't randomly look for customers, do Google searches and identify any business that may be interested in your product.  Then turn off the saw, turn on the truck, and go visit them. 

Set a realistic goal for how much money you want to make a week, and fight to make it.  This could be based on your business plan, or what you actaully think you can achieve.  Don't make it too big, its really to be used as a motivator.  For example, I have a day job too, so I set a modest, part time sawmill business goal of $100 per week when I frst started.  Not very much, that was the point as I wanted to make it reachable.  I trolled and hunted for something related to sawmill work until I made it, or ran out of time trying.  It forced me to think of ways to meet customers and to drum up business, or made me accept jobs I didn't think I wanted, but then turned into money makers.  Once I made the goal, I sat back, relaxed, and took a break.  Then I tried to figure out how I was going to make $100 bucks the next week.  Of course, as the business grows, the weekly income goal grows too.  Then my goal rose to a grand a week and later, five grand a week. Now, my income goal is more than that.  Sometimes I struggle to reach it, sometimes I crush it.  Don't try to make it all at once, it takes time and lots of legwork.  Growing your goal gradually will help you grow your capacity, line up your raw materials, get the logistics figured out, acquire more or different support equipment, and also make enough equity to take the next steps.

Don't sell or do what everybody else does, or then you have to compete with them and their prices.  Have a unique product or service and set your own price.  Look for and find your niche, that's where the money is.  If anybody could do it, then everybody would be doing it.  Do what you can to turn a buck, and in a little while you will find the hole full of gold nobody else has seen.

Its a fun ride.   

[red]

Very Interesting

[Ron Wenrich]

So I'm guessing from what's being said here its not worth the trouble to cut and sale wholesale? If there ain't no money it that then what is the best market for grade lumber?

I never had problems in the wholesale market.  But, you don't fall into it overnight.  Your alternative to the grade market is to cut for the custom market.  So, instead of finding one big buyer, you need to find a lot of small buyers to buy your inventory.  If you're having problems in the commercial markets, how will you succeed in the custom or retail market?  Without a steady market, you end up cutting on speculation. 

I still don't have an idea of how your production is going.  From what I gather from reading is that you now have markets for pallet stock and ties.  That's a start.  If you want to play in the wholesale market, you will need volume.  Very few buyers will want to deal with small lot loads.  You should have production at the 20-25 Mbf/wk range to crack the market.  That should give you about a load of grade every other week, depending on log quality.  If you're cutting low grade logs, you won't have much opportunity in the grade markets.  Are you familiar with NHLA grades?

Our starting niche was casket lumber.  We kept that, and added other buyers.  We have a bunch wholesalers in the major metropolitan areas, but they want only F1F & btr.  They didn't prove to be a very good market, in the long run.  Specs were really tight.  We separated the betters out of the casket and went from there.  After that, we had a dimension plant that used 25 MMbf/yr.  They bought a load a week from us in many species.  Also found larger lumber companies that would buy from us.  These were guys doing export work as well as domestic.  Some of them had their own mills.  They proved to be a good, steady market.  We never had any luck with the flooring market. 

Another thing you should be doing is going to trade shows and being a member of trade organizations.  Our area has sawmill and logging expos every other year, but they're mainly equipment oriented.  Rub shoulders with guys in the industry.  Also, there are annual builders shows in the area.  Go talk to the exhibitors and see about getting your foot in the door with them.  It could be a nice niche.  Looking at the Louisville area, there are shows that feature builders and renovation companies.   Might be worth your while to talk to the builders and see if there is a market there.  There is a large one in March, and a log and timber home show in April.  You might be able to find an alternative market there.

[Peter Drouin]

All good info from Ron Wenrich and YH. The more you cut the more hands you need to.
Finding help can be a pain.

[Cedarman]

If you are going to cut for grade and even if not, take a week long short course in lumber grading.  It is worth every penny and every minute spent on it.
Many companies no matter their size use wood for blocking, putting in new equipment, weird pallets etc.  Odd stuff.  Visit them, ask them what they have used in the past and what they might need in the future.  See if you are a fit.
We used to sell massive blocking to a big coal fired generating plant years ago when we custom sawed. 
We used to sell a lot of cedar to the Clorox Corp.  You never know where you will find a market.

[azmtnman]

Our starting niche was casket lumber. 

People are just DYING use their product!  :D :D :D
(Sorry, just too good to pass up!)

[Cedarman]

We sell a lot of lumber for pet urns.  Seems even pets are dying to use our wood.

[jdw]

Well one of the lumber brokers called back today wanting 3000 bf of #2 and #3 white oak. Flooring I assume? But any way I'm gonna get the logs and cut it might get my foot in the door anyway. I don't really need this market I guess you could say but the way I got it figured is if you cut it and it sits around you end up with more money in it, and I would hate selling 100% clear lumber for pallet wood. Just looks like if you can keep everything moving your money ahead. And if you can sell grade lumber at grade prices instead of pallet stock your money ahead.

[YellowHammer]

I don't really need this market I guess you could say but the way I got it figured is if you cut it and it sits around you end up with more money in it, and I would hate selling 100% clear lumber for pallet wood. Just looks like if you can keep everything moving your money ahead. And if you can sell grade lumber at grade prices instead of pallet stock your money ahead.

That's exactly right.  First rule of business, or second or third, I don't know, but it's "buy low, sell high."   ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

Its a start.  Make sure it makes his specs, know what his sorts are supposed to be - usually by length, and that the lumber is well edged and trimmed.  You'll want to use him as a reference in the future. 

[bkaimwood]

YH...you are my hero for today... Outstanding post...I have followed this post closely due to similar interests, and you and Ron W have provided some great stuff for us newer fellas...not to discount other posters, all info is good, and constructive...so anyway, thank you!!

[boardmaker]

I don't really have anything to add, but I wanted to step in and say how much I've enjoyed this thread.  Great information everyone!  Thank you guys for also being willing to help!

[venice]

Your are right.

Wonderful crowd, always willing to help and to share their experience. 

venice

[Solomon]

I have expierenced the same woes.  Hang in there brother.