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Bowed pine beams

Started by dhp3228, February 03, 2016, 09:15:56 PM

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dhp3228

I've asked this before and I'm really getting into the heart of the project milling long green pine beams. I have tried taking thin slices off the side to relieve stress, I've rotated multiple times to finish the beam with the least amount of waste, I've even gone to strapping the the beam down and am curious:
1. Is there  a better way?
2. If I where to get additional jobs calling for larger full dimension lumber then what would y'all recommend about producing these beams faster and straighter.?

customsawyer

You have to keep in mind that some trees have more stress than others. If you are getting your logs from the edge of a field, they will have more stress than trees that grow in the middle of the forest.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
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drobertson

Not sure how much bow you are talking about, but as far as I can tell there is no other way, some will lay flat, some won't.. If I remember right, you were going to saw out some 8"x10" 20 footers?  this is a good size beam, meaning it seems like this size should hold straight pretty good.  As mentioned before, the only way I know of is to open the log, then rotate around taking cuts, keeping an eye on how the log reacts,, Its hard to tell one just how, it's almost a live and learn kinda thing, 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

terrifictimbersllc

You also have to recognize the signs that your mill bed is not perfectly straight, that is, it might be crowned or dipped over its length even though the blade is perfectly aligned the same distance from all the rails.

Beams are stiff, the mill frame is not.  Figure out what that means and you stay on the path to straight uniform dimension long timbers.   :P

DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

isawlogs

  Straight logs will make straight lumber IF  the heart of the log is in the center, if the heart is off centered even if the log is straight it will bow. When sawing long timbers it will be so much more.  :P

It's very important to choose your logs carefully when you are to be sawing long beams if bow is or will be an issue.
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

ladylake

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on February 04, 2016, 08:33:55 AM
You also have to recognize the signs that your mill bed is not perfectly straight, that is, it might be crowned or dipped over its length even though the blade is perfectly aligned the same distance from all the rails.

Beams are stiff, the mill frame is not.  Figure out what that means and you stay on the path to straight uniform dimension long timbers.   :P

Right.   If you are taking a thin skim cut and you turn 180 the log should be on all of the bunks, if there is a gap you need to raise your jacks or supports where the gap is.  Also make sure your blade is not riding up when it enters the log as they like to do when they're getting dull.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

dhp3228

Thanks for the response. I shall verify that the bed isn't crowned and try to position the heart more to the center of the beam. Thanks.


On a different note is it practical to strive for perfect sentry in the fit up of these beams considering different natural factors of varying dry times for these pine beams

  

 

pineywoods

dhp, it may be just the logs, especially if they are from fast growing plantation pine. From the looks of your pics, I'd say them logs were definitely, not slow growth, wide rings.  I cut some a while back that were like trying to saw a rubber band.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

beenthere

More pics taken with the iPhone or iPad.  Remember, volume button pointing down for correct pics on PC's

tks
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

Does your beam have a split pith like the top upside down picture?  :-\ 

It's very difficult to determine what's going on with these improperly oriented pictures.   smiley_dizzy
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

KirkD

Quote from: Magicman on February 04, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
Does your beam have a split pith like the top upside down picture?  :-\ 

It's very difficult to determine what's going on with these improperly oriented pictures.   smiley_dizzy

You can do like I did and turn your monitor upside down. Most of them will do it by holding down the Ctrl-Alt keys and hitting down arrow on the 10 key. Same thing and up arrow puts it back like it was.
Wood-mizer LT40HD-G24 Year 1989

NZJake

Hmm this scenario again lol. Terrific wouldn't a narrow/thick centre of your beam relate more to a crowned/sagged beam? Bandsaw has to turn the log so that's the result if this is the case... Follow the heart that's your only answer :-)
Wife says I woke up one morning half asleep uttering thin kerf and high production, I think I need a hobby other than milling?

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: dhp3228 on February 04, 2016, 09:09:04 AM
Thanks for the response. I shall verify that the bed isn't crowned
If you're portable it isn't about your bed being crowned or not, as if it is a property of your mill.   It has to do with the setup (support jacks), which can change during the day even if your mill is on concrete.  The mill bed is flexible and has to be got straight by your setup.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: NZJake on February 04, 2016, 12:54:34 PM
Hmm this scenario again lol. Terrific wouldn't a narrow/thick centre of your beam relate more to a crowned/sagged beam? Bandsaw has to turn the log so that's the result if this is the case... Follow the heart that's your only answer :-)
Not sure I understand your question Jake or what scenario you're referring to.   I'm referring to timbers that are big enough to be stiff and have little or no sag.

Admittedly there is a lot going on in sawing logs.  But even if there is no stress related movement,  a trim cut made on a stiff beam, on a perfectly adjusted band mill (with respect to blade cutting equidistant from all the bed rails), if there is crown or dip over the length of the mill, will give, respectively,  a crowned or dipped cut over the length of the beam.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

NZJake

A crowned/sagged bandsaw mill beam = narrow/thick and irregular dimensioned timber Beam. So it sounds more like the milling technique is the better approach. Off setting your first cut from the heart to preempt the direction of your eventual beam bow in relation to the logs original bow.
Wife says I woke up one morning half asleep uttering thin kerf and high production, I think I need a hobby other than milling?

Magicman

Quote from: KirkD on February 04, 2016, 12:48:49 PM
Quote from: Magicman on February 04, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
Does your beam have a split pith like the top upside down picture?  :-\ 

It's very difficult to determine what's going on with these improperly oriented pictures.   smiley_dizzy

You can do like I did and turn your monitor upside down. Most of them will do it by holding down the Ctrl-Alt keys and hitting down arrow on the 10 key. Same thing and up arrow puts it back like it was.

It is not the readers responsibility to correct someone else's error to make it understandable.  Plenty of instructions have been given on how to post pictures correctly. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: NZJake on February 04, 2016, 01:13:15 PM
A crowned/sagged bandsaw mill beam = narrow/thick and irregular dimensioned timber Beam. So it sounds more like the milling technique is the better approach. Off setting your first cut from the heart to preempt the direction of your eventual beam bow in relation to the logs original bow.
What I've described above has nothing to do with bowing.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

KirkD

Quote from: Magicman on February 04, 2016, 01:27:08 PM
Quote from: KirkD on February 04, 2016, 12:48:49 PM
Quote from: Magicman on February 04, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
Does your beam have a split pith like the top upside down picture?  :-\ 

It's very difficult to determine what's going on with these improperly oriented pictures.   smiley_dizzy

You can do like I did and turn your monitor upside down. Most of them will do it by holding down the Ctrl-Alt keys and hitting down arrow on the 10 key. Same thing and up arrow puts it back like it was.

It is not the readers responsibility to correct someone else's error to make it understandable.  Plenty of instructions have been given on how to post pictures correctly.

I apologize and stand corrected MM.  :-\
Wood-mizer LT40HD-G24 Year 1989

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: KirkD on February 04, 2016, 12:48:49 PM
Quote from: Magicman on February 04, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
Does your beam have a split pith like the top upside down picture?  :-\ 

It's very difficult to determine what's going on with these improperly oriented pictures.   smiley_dizzy

You can do like I did and turn your monitor upside down. Most of them will do it by holding down the Ctrl-Alt keys and hitting down arrow on the 10 key. Same thing and up arrow puts it back like it was.

Hmm, an old dog can learn new tricks!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

customsawyer

In the one pic it looks like you split the pith. They will all bow when you do that.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Jim_Rogers

When I right click on the above pictures and select "view image" from my available options the pictures come in correct side up. I never tried that before just now. To exit the picture I used my back arrow on my web browser.

As far as milling long beams you'll need to learn how to "read" the log and watch the lumber coming off it to see if there is stress in the tree/log. Making opposite side cuts of some thing like 1" boards will some times relieve the stress evenly and make a good timber. Some times it does not.

I have had my mill flex some and make lumber that wasn't straight. But that was when the outriggers were frozen to the ground.
Normally I'd say if your sawmill is straight, "string tested" then the timbers should be straight.

You should try and "box heart" all timbers for timber framing. This will make the timber the strongest and hopefully the straightest, as well. You need to plan your cuts to not go too deep on any one side. You can cut off too much and bow a timber/log by doing that, if it has a lot of stress in it.

QuoteOn a different note is it practical to strive for perfect sentry in the fit up of these beams considering different natural factors of varying dry times for these pine beams?

Yes, prefect is close enough.

You want your timbers or joints to be a tight as you can without being too large to put together as when they dry out the joints could "open up" and make this worse if they are loose fitting joints. We would hope that all timbers dry out at about the same rate and same amount when the frame is done.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

dhp3228

Thanks fellas. Sorry about the pics. I'll make sure to take them with the volume button down. Started the day off raising the jack stands on either end of the mill which then makes my beams sit flush on the bed which great improved my cuts.

I've been trying to take notice of the hearts more but not having great timber to work with I feel like it's the best I can do.

What level of accuracy do you strive for when cutting larger beams? How square and how close to the desired measurements? I've been beating myself up on cutting these beams true,square, and accurate and over an 16'+ span they seem to be different. I'm striving to turn out the best product I can but at the same time trying to turn out practical products.

drobertson

square is 90° not much else to say bout this,  bow is bow, it happens I wish you well, I'm done with the offers not much else to say,,, green is green in logs and sawing,, and understanding,  you seem to know building, so sawing green timbers should not be a mystery on how they move,  best of wishes to you
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

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