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Author Topic: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040  (Read 2905 times)

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Offline Old Dog

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Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« on: February 03, 2016, 03:43:58 pm »
Been looking at tractor mounted skidding winches to rig on a Kubota M6040.  There are a lot of solid choices out there but I seem to be gravitating towards the simplicity of the pawl brake designs offered by Farmi, Fransgard, Igland/Norse and Wallenstein; and the very competitive pricing of the Fransgard and Igland/Norse brands.

Besides sizing to the power of the equipment, one factor I am concerned about is the angle of the PTO shaft both when operating the winch and when lifted in transit.  On this factor I am honing in on the V-5000 which has  a PTO input height well matched to the height of the 6040’s output shaft at 23”.  It seems to me that if I set the blade I’ll have a moderate downward shaft angle easy on bearings and u-joints alike.  My concern is will I have a severe upward angle that will bind on the tractors shaft cover when lifted.  I could split the diffence and go with the V-4000 which has a more typical input shaft height of 20” but I like the higher pull and capacity of the larger unit.

Or am I just overthinking this ??? Anyone running a V-5000 on a Kubota M5040, 6040, or 7040 ?

Offline beenthere

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2016, 03:59:33 pm »
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

If I hear you correctly, the height of the winch should be adjustable (feet/blade/whatever sits on the ground) to get your PTO pretty level when winchin in logs.
Once logs are in, the 3 ph when raised for travel should not pinch the PTO shaft, if cut to the correct length. That is done in the setup phase on a new winch.

But good to have those concerns when ordering what is best for you.
south central Wisconsin
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Offline 47sawdust

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2016, 04:13:55 pm »
As beenthere said,the alignment issues will be taken care of when you fit your winch to the tractor.You will most likely have to cut the
pto shaft to fit .Instructions are generally included.My Tajfun winch matches up to my Kubota L3750 at an odd ball angle but I've used it for 4 years with no problems to either tractor or winch.Just make sure the shaft is cut short enough that when the winch is fully raised there is still some clearance between the two halves.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Offline Old Dog

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2016, 04:34:25 pm »
Thanks for the replies but it's not the shaft length that concerns me.  I know I'll have to size the shaft.  I'm trying to optimize (i.e. minimize) the shaft angle.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2016, 04:57:58 pm »
Any of the winch manufactors will match a winch to your tractor size. The angle should not be an issue. You are concerned about something that they have all ready figured out for you. I have a Norse on the back of a 40 hp tractor. It matches the tractor size. The PTO is lined up to the tractor. Now if you put a winch that is designed for a 30hp onto a 40 hp tractor,than things may not be right.
Not much of an adjustment on those things either.I do have 2 sets of holes on mine.
Tell them the tractor size and let them do the sizing.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline repmma

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 05:10:44 pm »
I second thecfarm, like he said the angle should be acceptable.  I have a norse 450 behind my Ford 5030, which is probably comparable to your tractor, mines got maybe 10-15 more hp.  I think the V-5000 would be the better choice for you.  It looks like the V-4000 has about 8,000lb pull?  You can definitely go with more than that and the V-5000 looks comparable to the Norse 450.  I have had no issues with my setup.
Thomas 8020, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 131 acres to manage.

Offline H.O.D.

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 06:50:27 pm »
 Hi Old Dog. I have a JD5205 and Norse 4500 winch. I removed the  PTO cover or guard from the tractor years ago..not suggesting that you do that but it was in the way of about everything I did. The tractor side of the top hitch has a three hole adjustment choice and the winch side a two hole..that along with adjusting the length of the top hitch arm you should be able to clear everything when your lift arms are in the top most position. To me the max high or low working angle of the PTO shaft under power is a jugement call that varies with each trac; winch set up. If it simply looks like too much of an angle and or you hear a slight clicking from the joints reposition the tractor to reduce the angle when the winch base is on the ground.

Offline Old Dog

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 07:32:44 pm »
H.O.D. you are right on target - That PTO cover has skinned it's last knuckles.  Thanks for slapping me upside the head.  As for the working angle of the PTO shaft , the 23" elevation on the Fransgard V5000 input provides near perfect flat ground alignment.  I'm going to run with that.

Now that that decision is made, on to block and tackle - aside from the convenience of self releasing snatch blocks, whats the difference between a snatch block and a yarding block of equal duty besides several hundred dollars?

Offline beenthere

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2016, 08:48:03 pm »
I'm thinking they are one in the same... at least appear to be sold that way. What difference do you see?
What are the price differences you find?

The PTO cover on my tractor was off very soon because it is never needed. Not unless going back to yesteryear with a straight PTO shaft unprotected by a tube.
Spent many an hour working around open PTO shafts on farm equipment like feed grinder and could see the need for PTO shields which connected to the tractor PTO cover.
Have none of that now, especially on 3 ph attachments as cannot get close to the PTO shaft.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline 711ac

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 09:20:45 pm »
Now that that decision is made, on to block and tackle - aside from the convenience of self releasing snatch blocks, whats the difference between a snatch block and a yarding block of equal duty besides several hundred dollars?

The Harbor Freight $25 snatch block has an aluminum sheave, but for that money, unless you really use it frequently, like on every hitch……. You can't go wrong.
I bought one to see if I could make a self releasing block. I did, and it's not looking like  the alum. sheave is going to be an issue.

Offline Old Dog

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2016, 10:35:36 pm »
At the end of the day I think you get what you pay for in block and tackle for tractor logging - The Igland self releasing snatch block with the 1/2 sheave carries an impressive 6ton rating and is no doubt convenient, it runs about $300.  On the other end of the spectrum, a yarding block with 1/2 sheave and a 4.5ton rating runs about $35 but requires opening the eye to insert/remove the cable during the pull. Some good basic safety practices on logging blocks from Oregon's OSHA here:

437-007-0680 Blocks and Hanging Blocks. (1) Load-bearing blocks must:
(a) Not be used for lines other than those for which they are constructed.
(b) Be fitted with line guards and be designed and used in a manner that prevents
fouling.
(c) Be kept in proper alignment when in use.
(d) Have bearing and yoke pins of a material that will safely withstand the strains imposed and be securely fastened.
(e) Have sheaves of a size designed for the size of the wire rope used.
EXCEPTION: 437-007-0680(b) and (e) do not apply to small rig-up (Tommy Moore) blocks.
(2) Block bearings must be kept well-lubricated.
(3) Sufficient corner or tail blocks to distribute the stress on anchors and attachments must
be used on all logging systems.
(4) Tail, side, or corner blocks used in yarding must be hung in both eyes of straps or in the single eye of a strap or choker that meets the requirements OAR 437-007-0645, Tables 7-7 and 7-8.
(5) The yoke pin of haulback blocks must be inserted with the head facing the direction from which the rigging approaches, when the rigging can reach the block.
Stat. Auth.: ORS 654.025(2) and 656.726(4).
Stats. Implemented: ORS 654.001 through 654.295.
Hist: OR-OSHA Admin. Order 5-2003, f. 6/02/03, ef. 12/01/03.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 12:56:11 am »
You are more than welcome to run with that OSHA stuff if you would like... ;)
south central Wisconsin
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Offline 711ac

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2016, 07:45:01 am »
You are more than welcome to run with that OSHA stuff if you would like... ;)

 :D :D :D
Yea, you can't "rule" away dumb!

Offline Old Dog

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2016, 09:25:37 am »
Yep - I am a spec, code and handbook junkie...
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/osha/pdf/pubs/1935.pdf

Online g_man

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2016, 10:12:46 am »
This is the shaft angle I have during a pull. Same shaft since 2002. Grease the u-joints a couple times a year and call it good.

 

 


Edit: It's not like a bush hog running at 540 rpm under load for hours on end.


gg

Offline enigmaT120

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2016, 03:45:32 pm »
Something about an orange Logrite tool just looks odd to me.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Online g_man

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2016, 05:26:47 pm »
Something about an orange Logrite tool just looks odd to me.

Bought it used -  smiley_headscratch

Offline beenthere

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2016, 05:49:58 pm »
Bought my orange one from my Stihl dealer.
south central Wisconsin
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Offline peterpaul

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2016, 07:25:56 pm »
Today, I picked up a new Wallenstein FX 85, with a self releasing snatch block.  I will mount it on my Kubota L 4330 tomorrow.  I have a FEL with a grapple as well as loaded R4 tires.  I was also considering a new FX 90 but I think it would be too much for my tractor width wise, (close to tires & chains)  time will tell.  My logic was I would prefer the winch to be equal to or less than that of the  tractor as opposed to having the winch be oversized.  Hopefully my days of dragging chains to skid firewood and logs out are over.   I read enough posts regarding logging winches the last couple of weeks to make my head spin. Thanks to all for their comments & photos.   I will post some pictures of cutting the drive shaft and angles.
Best regards
Peter
Woodmizer LT15, Kubota 4330 GST, Wallenstein FX 85, Timberwolf TW6, homemade firewood conveyor

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2016, 09:14:58 pm »
peterpaul,as long as one don't go down a couple sizes or up,things "should" be fine. You will like the winch.And than some. Lots of pointers on how to use one. Try to put a roll on the log. That helps some in moving a good size one. Also brings any limbs you might of missed to the top. I ran 6 chockers on mine. Sometimes all six are used and maybe doubled up on a few of them, and sometimes only one is used.I made up six 4 foot chains. Those gets used alot. Easier to pull a foot of chain through a chocker,than 5 feet when hauling small stuff. Watch your feet when winching in. The slash can get in front of the log and hit you. Have fun!!
How many hp is a L4330?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline peterpaul

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 07:36:06 am »
peterpaul,as long as one don't go down a couple sizes or up,things "should" be fine. You will like the winch.And than some. Lots of pointers on how to use one. Try to put a roll on the log. That helps some in moving a good size one. Also brings any limbs you might of missed to the top. I ran 6 chockers on mine. Sometimes all six are used and maybe doubled up on a few of them, and sometimes only one is used.I made up six 4 foot chains. Those gets used alot. Easier to pull a foot of chain through a chocker,than 5 feet when hauling small stuff. Watch your feet when winching in. The slash can get in front of the log and hit you. Have fun!!
How many hp is a L4330?

Thanks for the tips thecfarm, I will make up some short chokers.  I often roll logs to avoid rocks, trees etc. 

L4330 has 43hp  engine, 38hp pto and weighs about 5500 with FEL, loaded tires and winch.  FEL has about 1900 lbs capacity.  I purchased the tractor new in '03 and have nearly 3000 hrs on it.  I had a '97 L2900 before that.

Regarding safety, I do plan on adding some limb risers and belly pan.  Here are some pictures from a couple of years ago.  I was mowing a field for a friend (for free) and hooked an apple tree limb with the ROPS.  Had me pinned to the steering wheel pretty good (I was between the steering wheel and the limb).  I climbed out over the hood.  No damage to me other than a scrape on the back of the shoulder or the tractor, very lucky.  Never saw it coming.  As the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished.  Stay safe all.





Woodmizer LT15, Kubota 4330 GST, Wallenstein FX 85, Timberwolf TW6, homemade firewood conveyor

Offline Old Dog

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2016, 10:55:40 am »
My apologies for not closing the loop on this thread earlier, but I did end up with the Fransgard and have been busy putting it to use during the brief spell of frozen conditions we recently had in this otherwise miserable excuse for a winter.
 

 
Couldn't ask for flatter shaft angle than the fit up with this winch.  As stated in posts above, I would have been fine with the lower shaft input of other brands as well.  I'm running the tractor at low idle during the pull; it has plenty of power and I've no interest in pulling the logs any faster.

Seems theres a difference of opinion out there about dropping the logs onto the tow bar vs. pulling them directly on the cable.  I've found leaving them on the cable easier and it works fine for smaller hitches but put anything with size on it and the cable digs into the spool during skidding and makes it a bear to pull out. 

No doubt I've still much to learn but to date the winch has been a huge time/labor saving and I've been surprised how much I enjoy setting up multi log pulls with the sliders and directional pulls with a simple yarding block and strapping.  I guess this old dog is easily amused...

Thanks for all the good info on this site.


Online g_man

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2016, 12:15:37 pm »
If your cable buries itself in the drum on a hard pull which is very common with new cables try this. Choker the cable to a stump or some other relatively immovable object and string it all out on the ground by driving forward. Then set your brake and drop the winch. Winch in the cable until it is pretty tight and leave it there for a day or over night to stretch it. Then when you wind it back on the drum do it under tension. Leave the choker on the stump put the tractor in neutral and pull the tractor back to the stump with the winch while you keep your foot on the brake. Usually this helps a lot so your cable does not jam itself in the drum. After a while if you start having trouble again just redo this little exercise. After a couple goes it won't tend to jam any more.

EDIT: I forgot to congratulate you on your  new winch. You will enjoy it. Work safe.

gg

Offline AfraidChocker

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2016, 01:49:22 pm »
My Kubota is about as small as your old one, and about the same year and I have had a Fransgard on it for that time, and another tractor before that. A winch is half the tractor as I like to say in over 20 years of hard service it has yet to break down. I think the clutches are only half taken up.

I pull from the attachment bar and not the cable, but that is only because I have parted the cable a few times and prefer to stop that nonsense. Not saying what you are doing is wrong though, just different ways of doing the same thing.
As a sheep farmer, I have no intentions of arriving at the pearly gates in a well preserved body, rather I am going to slide into heaven sideways with my Kubota tractor, kick the manure out of my muck boots, and loudly proclaim, "Whoo Hoo, another Sheppard has just arrived!"

Offline 47sawdust

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2016, 04:07:06 pm »
I have a Tajfun winch and prefer to pull with the cable.It is much easier to unhook at the landing and if I get in a jamb I can always drop the hitch,pull ahead to solid ground,and pull the hitch back in. In rough going it saves wear and tear on the tractor and is a safer technique.OESCO,the dealer I purchased my winch from, recommended pulling from the cable.
My winch is 4 years old.At the beginning of the winter I was having problems getting it to free spool.I did as g man suggested and have had no problems since.Good luck with your winch,they can do a lot of work.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2016, 07:24:10 pm »
That looks good!!!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline enigmaT120

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2016, 01:00:30 pm »

I pull from the attachment bar and not the cable, ....

Can you guys clarify what you mean by pulling from the attachment bar?  You're still pulling with the cable, aren't you?

Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Offline 47sawdust

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2016, 01:32:21 pm »
enigma,
The base of the winch frame has a series of slots for attaching individual chokers.Mine has 4.You pull your hitch up to the butt plate,release your cable and hook your choker in the slot.This way you are pulling on the winch not the cable.Sometimes I use both depending on the log size.Hope this helps.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Offline Old Dog

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2016, 02:25:03 pm »
Yes - like Sawdust said.   Here's a photo that shows 2 on the bar and one on the cable.


g_man - thanks for the tip on stretching out the cable.  I will give that a go.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2016, 09:11:13 pm »
I pull from my cable. I pulled ALOT of 3 foot white pine with the cable, even a few bigger than 3 feet. I have a Norse.
I also run 6 chockers. Somtimes I use all six,small stuff,and sometimes I only use one.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline enigmaT120

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Re: Winch sizing for Kubota M6040
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2016, 03:42:27 pm »
enigma,
The base of the winch frame has a series of slots for attaching individual chokers.Mine has 4.You pull your hitch up to the butt plate,release your cable and hook your choker in the slot.This way you are pulling on the winch not the cable.Sometimes I use both depending on the log size.Hope this helps.

Oh, I see.  Thanks, and thanks Olddog for the picture.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or