Persimmon

[gfadvm]

I sawed a nice persimmon log (16" diameter) 2 weeks ago. Stacked, stickered, and weighted stack with concrete blocks in my wood barn. It has disappointed me: LONG cracks/separation between heart/sapwood, cupping badly, and bucked the blocks off the stack twice in the last 2 days. It is really pretty but I don't think it will ever behave. I had high hopes as this was a very straight 8 1/2' log with no branches.

Y'all did warn me!

[WDH]

I also found it difficult to dry.  It cracks at the pith.  Not much you can do about it. 

[kelLOGg]

Apparently, if it is very small it will behave better. I sawed one so small that a 4 x 4 still had some wane on all edges. It make great mallet heads.
Bob

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

A bit of history...

Persimmon was used for wooden golf club heads decades ago.  A company in Memphis had an RF dryer that dried the heads for many years.  They dried the head, not lumber.

Back in the late '60s, when we would get an inquiry for a kiln schedule for drying a somewhat unknown tropical wood, if we did not have a schedule in our files at the US Forest Products Lab, we would always suggest using the persimmon schedule.  We knew that it was a slow, conservative schedule and would not get anyone is trouble.

Due to the small size of the logs, much of the wood is close to the pith and so is subject to a great deal of warp in drying.  Likewise, the pith shows up in a high percentage of the pieces and that region of the tree is prone to cracking as well.  Also, almost all persimmon is 100% sapwood, which is white in color.  The heartwood, if present is very dark.  In fact, persimmon is in the same genus as ebony.  The wood is harder and heavier than oak.  This is the main reason why it was preferred for golf heads.

A major use today for persimmon is for turning blanks, not lumber.  This small piece requirement eliminates most of the warp and cracking issues that lumber has.

[gfadvm]

Thanks Gene. That was educational. I was very surprised/disappointed at the amount of sapwood in this log. I'm not going out looking for more to saw! But that heartwood is amazing looking.

[Deese]

I also found it difficult to dry.  It cracks at the pith.  Not much you can do about it.

WDH, if one had access to a large persimmon, say 18"+ dbh, would the modified quartersawing method be the best way to minimize movement when drying? And removing the juvenile wood from the wide, center cut boards to prevent cracking?

[WDH]

With only 18" in diameter, even the modified quartersawing method will yield only narrow boards once you saw out the pith.  I believe that I would saw it through and through and then edge out the pith once the wide boards from the center had dried and cracked at the pith. 

[gfadvm]

Danny, Mine isn't cracking along the pith (yet). It is cracking/separating where the heartwood meets the sapwood. Kinda shake looking but these cracks/separations weren't there when I sawed it just over 2 weeks ago.

No big deal. Just another learning experience. But I will be sad every time I put a piece in the stove next winter :(

[WDH]

Andy,

I have not seen what you are describing.  Sounds like some kind of hidden shake, maybe stress induced, who knows what could have caused it.

[gfadvm]

Danny, I'll try to take some pics and post em on LJ.

[woodworker9]

Just to add, persimmon is highly sought after by wooden planemakers (me) to use as boxing in the sole for hard wearing parts of a wooden plan, like quirks (sharp plunging points) and edges, like on rabbet planes.

I can never find the stuff.......

[gfadvm]

Just to add, persimmon is highly sought after by wooden planemakers (me) to use as boxing in the sole for hard wearing parts of a wooden plan, like quirks (sharp plunging points) and edges, like on rabbet planes.

I can never find the stuff.......

Do you use the white sapwood? Or only the dark heartwood? I have plenty but it is NOT very well behaved.

[WDH]

Two days ago, got a call from Scotland.  One of the last makers of persimmon golf club "woods" in the United Kingdom.  Looking for billets that are 4" thick, 5" wide, and 8" long.  About 500 per year if anyone has any that meets that description. 

[woodworker9]

For use as boxing, the persimmon is cut on the bias at 50° or 55° to match the bed of the plane being made.  The concept is to have endgrain pointing towards the sole of the plane at the same angle as the bed (which is what the cutting iron seats to through the body of the plane.

I have never cut it; only purchased it.  The stuff I got was dried and well behaved.  It was purchased from a known supplier of persimmon and 16/4 beech billets for the expressed intention of being used in planemaking.  That source is no longer available, as she passed away, and I know many, many planemakers who are looking for sources of quality material.

I do not have access to beech trees or persimmon.  I wouldn't know what a persimmon tree looked like if one was growing next to my shop (shame on me....right?)

The biggest issue, from a supplier stand point of view, is that planemaker's do not need a huge quantity of the stuff.  One 4', 6', or 8' of lumber, planed down to 1/4" or 3/8", will last a very, very, very long time, because you're only glueing in a 3/4" strip of it.  1' length 7" wide will made a dozen planes.  300 bf is a lifetime supply, if you get me.....

Beech plane billets, on the other hand, seem to be as rare as hen's teeth, too.  Apparently they are difficult to dry without warping, and they have to be perfectly q-sawn to yield a stable plane.  I have spoken to all the tree guys in my neck of the woods, and have never been called for a downed beech tree.  I'd gladly split one up myself if I could find a good quality sized log with straight grain........

The woes of the world......

[pineywoods]

Persimon is a weed where I live. I could probably  put my hands on half a dozen. About a year ago, I sawed up a 14 inch persimon log. (big for persimon). I think I cut it 6/4. there may be some of it left in my lumber stash, the duck call makers got most of it. I'll go look in the barn...

[WDH]

Persimmon headed to Japan.  This piece is 42" long, 6" wide, and 2" thick.  Totally clear, no defects.  This is as good as it gets.  $12/bf.  And with shipping cost to Japan, it is pricey, but the buyer has a customer that wants a box for a turned pen collection, and the box must be made out of American persimmon. 



 

[YellowHammer]

That is some nice wood.  Is there anything special that has to be done for overseas shipping? Kiln certification or export form?

[WDH]

The customs document that is attached to the package has to be filled out by the shipper.  My description was, "Two blocks of persimmon wood, 21" x 6" x 2", kiln dried, planed, and heat treated for 24 hours at 150 degrees."  I have shipped to Australia and the United Kingdom with a similar description for the wood (hackberry and pecan, respectively, both for guitars) and the shipments went through customs, no problems.  Hopefully, this package will, too. 

[LeeB]

Does persimmon have any rot resistance? A have a couple of logs that have been sitting for a long time now.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

It has very little rot resistance. I've had logs get extremely bug ridden and stained in less than a year.

[WDH]

Powderpost beetles love it, too . 

[Deese]

WDH, I've still got those 2 BIG persimmon trees to cut. I don't know dbh but too big for my mill.  I was gonna cut and bring them to the "project" this Spring but I never made it. Maybe I will let them grow yet another year. Heck, I wouldn't know what to do with them if I cut them down.

[Okrafarmer]

It has very little rot resistance. I've had logs get extremely bug ridden and stained in less than a year.

I milled one like that, it was riddled trhoughout with ant-holes. The customer who brought it to me to custom mill was flabbergasted at how beautiful it was when I milled it. Also, the wood between the bug holes was pretty solid, so you could make something out of it, especially if you were to dry it the rest of the way first. I assured him it was genuine "colonial wood." That is, there sure had been a colony of bugs living in it. I thought it was fairly nice myself. I also suppose the bug holes might keep it from warping so bad.