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Simple thermal mass

Started by yukon cornelius, January 18, 2016, 06:01:51 AM

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yukon cornelius

Does anyone else use anything for thermal mass? This morning it is 4* out and I'm poking this fire. It stayed pretty recent in here overnight dropping to just 59 in the office area on the farthest north side if the house. We heat solely with Wood through this scandia 100 stove. I like to put a big fish fryer pot filled with water on top of the stove to catch and hold heat on the coldest nights. It holds 5-6 gallons of water.
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

yukon cornelius

 

 

Then there is this for thermal mass. Dozer lives in front of the stove this time of year. He is over 200 lbs and absorbs quite a bit of heat also. Then I stick my toes under him and he keeps them warm.
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

sandsawmill14

i bet dozer on the toes works real good till he goes back to the stove :D. we heat with wood to and keep water on top of the stove to keep the humidity up in the house. thats all we do but i can remember when i was a kid at my grandparents house they would keep bricks laying on the fire place and put them in the bed to help stay warm but the bedrooms had no heat at all. they live in a old hotel that was built around 1900 so the bedrooms were seperated from the fireplace by about 20 ' by a dining hall.  you have never lived till you have to get out of bed with it 10 degrees in the bedroom. when we were kids we would jump out of bed and run to the fire and then worry about getting dressed :D
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r.man

Sandsaw that is how I grew up, ice on the inside of the single pane windows in the morning, no heat registers in the bedrooms. We had a central heating grate in the living room, jump out of bed, scoop up your clothes and go out and stand on the grate while the clothes warmed on it.
Yukon a friend of mine is experimenting with water storage, 900 litre tank in the basement next to his wood stove, roll of soft copper tubing on top of the stove with a circulation pump pushing the water through the roll and then to a side arm heat exchanger on his hot water tank and then back to storage. This is his first winter experimenting but so far he is happy with the results.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

yukon cornelius

R man, I have been dreaming up a system like that. I have a 50 gallon hot water tank with no skin on it and a propane hot water boiler system.  was thinking of some copper on the stove sides and using the boiler to circulate water and maybe a backup heat system and the tank just to store/ radiate heat. I even considered a trial of the tank sat near the stove without coils and circulators.

We used to live in an 1800s 2story house. In the mornings it would be in the 30s if I didn't get up and fix the fire. The night before bed I would gather the next mornings clothes and keep them by the stove. Then I would warm them up on the stove right before outing them on. We would all gather around the stove for hot socks. Those are good memories there.
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

pineywoods

My living room/great room has an internal brick wall. My wood stove is a bout 18 inches from that wall. By bedtime, that wall is toasty warm. Plus, the ceramic tile floor all around the stove is nice and warm. It wasn't a deliberate design, we enclosed a carport to expand the living area and just left the brick wall in place. Stoke up the fire before retiring, and the wall and floor are still warm next morning. Hey, I'd be tempted to let dozer sleep on top of my feet  ;D
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r.man

A good thing about Pineys set up is that it is maintenance free. If I was starting new I would consider a solid thermal mass enclosing a firebox.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

WmFritz

I agree with Piney and r.man.
If you take it a few steps farther, a RMH is about as efficient as you can get. It will store a lot of btu's with very little wood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mass_heater
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

submarinesailor

Yukon,

I wish there was a simple way you could use a Phase Change Material (PCM) setup.  Here is some info on it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_material

Bruce

yukon cornelius

Bruce, that is an interesting idea! I wonder it it will be used more in the future.

Now the rocket mass heater is a great deal. We did a lot of research but could never come up with a way to size one. On the site permies.com there is a lot of info. I didn't want to build and find it was not enough. I liked the idea of the non permanent setup. Using a box with sand or other mass that could be removed easier than cob. What about a water vessel type rocket mass heater.

We have made a few rocket stoves for fun. The coffee can version is easy and portable. We boiled water in about 5 minutes on it
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

WmFritz

YC,
A variation of the rmh is to leave out the mass (bench), and use a 55 gallon barrel (bell) after the burn chamber to radiate the heat. That would give a less permanent footprint. If you have the ceiling height, two drums can be stacked to draw as much heat from the exhaust as possible. Mass can be gained back by stacking brick inside the bell, in the exhaust path.

An 8" rocket puts out massive btu's. A batch box, instead of the the typical J-tube firebox would give you less fire tending.
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

red

I like masonry stoves with soap stone. @schweizer has a beautiful setup with a bread oven. His website also shows the www.heatkit.com stove www.docbryner.com/mossy_hollow
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blackfoot griz

 

 

Here is s pic of mine with a fire in the bake box to increase the temp. The whole thing (except doors & glass) is soapstone. I burn it for 2-3 hours in a 24 hour period. The whole thing is a big heat sink--it never cools down unless I am gone for a few days.

yukon cornelius

Blackfoot, that is a beautiful setup! Wmfritz, I am going to look into the 8 inch rocket. We like the bench style for the mass. I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about a ground floor rmh and move the wood stove up to the second floor. That would give us a secondary system and not change anything major in our house. I need more research on the rmh for a possible summer change out. Instead of cob what would you build the bench out of? Concrete?
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

Ox

For thermal mass and nice looks, how about a simple short wall, or "U" of sorts make from field rocks or bricks?  Just right around your stove.  I can't think of any better words to try to describe what's in my stupid head.  :-\
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
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peterpaul

Here are some pictures of our Masonry Heater.  The photos were taken when I was building our house. 





The construction is soapstone and granite surrounding a "core" which contains the firebox and smoke chambers.  The stone is 3" thick and does not contact the core.  The dining room side has a bake oven and the living room side has a heated bench.  I light 2 fires per day.  Fires burn wide open.  The smoke travels from the firebox up, under then around the bake oven and then down to the floor, under the bench and then finally up the chimney. 

If you were to construct some sort of stone surround (as described above) where the stone could absorb the heat from the stove and then radiate the absorbed heat over a long period of time should be ideal.  Air circulation, I think, would be key so having a stone surround open on both sides would be better than one which is against a wall.  If the stone is placed against a wall, a small air space (1") between the wall and stone, open at the sides and top would also help.   The thermal mass could be tile,  natural stone, brick, etc.

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Holmes

Peterpaul  that is a beautiful heater. Is it a kit and what make? In the 50 years I've been in construction I have seen maybe 12 masonry heaters in houses. They are great heaters.
Think like a farmer.

Ox

Stone, earth and water are the best thermal mass materials.  Any combination of the three will work great (think concrete in  your shop or garage or whatever).
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

peterpaul

Quote from: Holmes on January 29, 2016, 05:42:08 PM
Peterpaul  that is a beautiful heater. Is it a kit and what make? In the 50 years I've been in construction I have seen maybe 12 masonry heaters in houses. They are great heaters.

Thanks, our heater started as my design based on heaters I have seen in Europe.  I searched for a mason/stone cutter to build it and found Eric Nelson, Littleton NH.  The final outcome was his detailed design and he and his crew created it.

Here are a couple of pictures.  First showing some pieces/components contributing to the thermal mass.



And my daughter's dog's favorite spot.  The only parts of the heater that you cannot touch are the glass doors and metal door frames.  The remainder of the heater safe to touch or sit on when the fire is going.



Regarding the OP's question, I think just stacking stone or bricks adjacent to the stove to absorb some of the radiant heat would well work as a test.
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blackfoot griz

Peter Paul  that is a beautiful set up! I love mine and would do it all over again. With the draft system on yours as you described above-- is it tough to start?

As you stated, a few slabs of soapstone stacked on top of a standard Woodstock could be a great as a heat sink.

yukon cornelius

Peterpaul, that is a beautiful setup! We are thinking rocket mass heater. Maybe.... We have a warm house but the stove might not make it if it were to stay 10 below for a long time. I do plan on stone wall  near the stove as our house progresses. For now I like the big kettle of water on the coldest nights.
It seems I am a coarse thread bolt in a world of fine threaded nuts!

Making a living with a manual mill can be done!

thecfarm

That sure does look nice. And than some!!
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peterpaul

Quote from: blackfoot griz on January 29, 2016, 11:08:44 PM
Peter Paul  that is a beautiful set up! I love mine and would do it all over again. With the draft system on yours as you described above-- is it tough to start?

As you stated, a few slabs of soapstone stacked on top of a standard Woodstock could be a great as a heat sink.

When the stove and house is warm, (Nov. thru March), the stove is very easy to light.  It has a 9" flue with an 8" outdoor air intake, so the draft is very strong. 

Early or late in the season, when there is not much draft, to get it going, we just light a very small piece of newspaper or napkin in the chimney clean-out.  The heat generated creates the draft and the fire is off and running.  Have only done this 3-4 times in 8 years. 



Note, we inspect our chimney annually, and it has not needed cleaning as there is no creosote created.  Burning, dry seasoned wood along with the very hot fire burns very clean.  The only thing in our chimney is a fine white ash, which gets vacuumed out.

Another thing we have is on the outside air intake, I have a 24 vdc damper on a timer so the cold outside air does not cool off the heater.  We also have a chimney cap which we pull down to eliminate the draft from drawing air through the heater so most of the heat is stored in and released inside the house via the thermal mass of the heater. 

 

In the photo above, there is a small fire burning in the heater, so you can see there is not much coming out of the chimney.  It was the very first fire in the heater.




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