White birch for framing???

WLC · December 30, 2015, 02:14:22 AM

Hello all, I hope I put this in the right forum.

Where I live here in AK I have access to a goodly amount of white birch. Any reason to not use it for framing lumber? I called a local sawmill and asked but only got "we only ever cut it for flooring and paneling" (I imagine $$) and no definitive answer as to would it be suitable for framing lumber. I'd be using it mostly for studs. Thanks for any help.

Quebecnewf · December 30, 2015, 05:57:28 AM

I would say no green . Lots of water in the wood and if sawed as studs and put up green I would think the shrinkage and twist would be a bit more than you would want in a building if heated. Unheated you might get away with it.

If you dry them before use they become too hard to hammer a nail in and will split near the ends. Their is very little rot resistance so any moisture will cause problems as well.
Would not be my first choice for sure.
Quebecnewf

Chuck White · December 30, 2015, 06:40:48 AM

Seems like there was a thread on using it for framing posted about 1½-2 months ago.

In the OP, it was said that it wouldn't be used again!

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, WLC.

starmac · December 30, 2015, 10:12:34 AM

Can't help with your question, but have a question for you.
How big is the birch available in your area.
Most areas up here, it seems like they are not very big, and those that are have a good amount of rot in them. I am told this is a condition of where they are growing and talked to a logger last week that has a birch sale south of town. He claims he has some good sized ones that are solid, going to have to check into them.

Kbeitz · December 30, 2015, 10:35:35 AM

I only can tell you to make sure the bark is off.
I have no experence with the bark off.
I made this party hut that only lastes 4 years.
Lots of work for nothing.
I even sprayed it with borax but it did not help.

This is what happen...

I'm now doing the whole thing over with Hemlock.

Clark · December 30, 2015, 10:53:46 AM

Paper birch is known for being able to hold water inside or outside of the bark (birch bark canoe). If left in log form it rots quite quickly. I suspect on the forest floor a birch log would last about three years before you could put your foot through it.

All that to say, I don't think Kbeitz's experience has much application to sawn lumber.

Clark

Brandon1986 · December 30, 2015, 12:09:47 PM

Where in AK are you? If you are around me in the valley its really hard to find birch big enough, straight enough, and not hallow for saw logs anyway. I use the local birch for rustic furnature after its peeled and dried. It works fairly well for that, because that type of furnature is less precise and if it crawls a little nobody will notice... Well I won't notice anyway.

Brandon1986 · December 30, 2015, 12:11:34 PM

Oh it also works quite well for trailer decking and stake body stakes because its much stronger than any other local lumber.

AlaskaLes · December 30, 2015, 03:42:46 PM

We've got some of the bigger birch on our property. We can collect 12" to 18" diameter straight sections all day long and we'll find the occasional 20" to 22"+, that is still solid. If it isn't rotten in the center, then we get great wood.

All of my research says that it will hold up just fine if you kiln dry it and seal it properly and insulate it from the wet parts.

I'm not planning on using it for our studs, but we will be using it for crucks and braces in timber framing and many of the other stages. Also, planning on trying some on one of our buildings as natural edge lap siding. It will be kilned and coated on all sides before it goes up. We'll see how that lasts.

I agree with the assessment that it needs to be freed from the bark or just milled, to start the drying process
as soon as you can.

WLC · December 30, 2015, 05:03:38 PM

Brandon, I figure we are pretty close to each other. I'm between Wasilla and Big Lake.

I asked the question because I have "free" access to much more Birch than Spruce. It is pretty easy to get 12-18" logs with the scattered larger ones. I just recently bought an LT28 (haven't even cut the first board with it yet) and plan on cutting birch for flooring etc, but wondered why it wouldn't work for studs. I'll definitely use what spruce I have access to for framing lumber, but if I can get out of buying logs then that's all the more better.

Speaking of buying sawlogs, any ideas of who to contact if I were to need to go that direction?

Brandon1986 · December 30, 2015, 06:32:42 PM

Yeah I am in Wasilla. We used to haul logs to Poppert and Mat Valley milling when I was a pup give them a call for ideas. I hygrade all my saw logs out of our firewood processor yard, but thats only 3-4 saw bolts out of our 10 cord truck load. As far as real workable birch goes I am suprised to hear you have access to a lot of them, our outfit logs around 50-70 acres a year around here and I only ever come up with a select few straight thick not rotten birch a year.

What do you think of your 28, I am right on the edge of buying one this spring?

WLC · December 30, 2015, 07:58:54 PM

Poppert is where I called the first time and was told they only cut paneling and flooring out of it. I can see that as that's a higher $$ item for them than framing lumber.

I think I'll like the 28. I haven't sawed the first board on it other than the demo/familiarization trip when I picked it up from Parker. Mine is total manual with the log deck package. I've got a tractor to load with though. I started to go with a lt15, but my wife actually suggested to get the 28 so I could tow it. Not planning on using it commercially at all. I really would've liked a lt35 hydraulic, but for the $$ and my use the 28 is more than enough.

Brandon1986 · December 30, 2015, 08:16:10 PM

Did you ask about saw logs?

starmac · December 30, 2015, 10:32:59 PM

Wasilla is too far to haul sawlogs, but I did deliver house logs down there last spring.

Brandon1986 · December 31, 2015, 02:20:03 PM

Perhaps a meeting in Cantwell would be in order.... Im kinda surprised you get big enough timber up there to be able to haul anything down here.

WLC · December 31, 2015, 05:37:56 PM

Brandon, I didn't think about asking them about saw logs. Just had my mind on the question of using birch for framing lumber. I'll call them back if and when I need some if they are still open. I did see that they are trying to sell out. Don't remember where I saw the real estate add though.

Starmac, I too am surprised that ya'll get big enough timber up your way for house logs. I thought most of those came from closer to the coast. I know one guy in Delta that does full log scribed log houses that gets all his logs out of Haines. Wish we had timber like that here.

mad murdock · January 01, 2016, 02:58:26 AM

Does the state still allow the subsistence annual timber allottment? When I lived in the FBNSB, you could get a permit for reasonable to cut 25mbf of logs off state ground per year. Not a ton but a good 5 log trucks or so worth of logs.

Brandon1986 · January 03, 2016, 10:57:52 AM

WLC, I Just stumbled across a posting on our local CL while checking our firewood competion you might be interested in. I don't think they will let me post the link, but Randy Shivers (Got Wood guy) says he has some saw logs he would be willing to sell. I don't know him too well to offer a professional reference, truth be told I have heard some bad things as much as good, but you might consider checking out what he has anyway.

Here is his text body of the ad

WANTED FIREWOOD STANDING TIMBER OR NICELY DECKED MUST BE TOP QUALITY NO JUNK TREE LENGHT WILL CLEAR LAND FOR A REASONABLE PRICE. NO I WONT CLEAR YOUR LAND FOR FREE UNLESS IT IS THE PREMIUM SIZE AND LOCATION. ALSO, FIREWOOD FOR SALE PREMIUM 2 YEAR OLD BIRCH. I HAVE AVAILABLE SPRUCE SAW TIMBER CAN BE USED FOR BUNDLES SAW LOGS AND SOME HOUSE LOG QUALITY SPRUCE. FIREWOOD CAN BE DELIVERED OR PICKED UP. CALL FOR PRICING IN YOUR AREA. FIREWOOD AND LAND CLEARING ALASKA

starmac · January 03, 2016, 03:59:28 PM

We have spruce as big as 40 inch at the butt, actually quite a bit in the 30 in range.
What hurts is the sawmill here can not handle over 25 inch timber, so all that we take them over 25 in, gets bucked for firewood till it gets down to 25 inches.

The spruce coming out of haines is sitka spruce, not white spruce. The guy there in Wasilla that builds custom homes, told me he had a customer that requested the sitka spruce, and he had 14,000 more in the price of the delivered logs. He mentioned freight cost him 4000 a load on them, but he had no plans to ever use them again.

The main problem with our big timber, is it is getting farther and farther from the road, so trucking is slow, 1 load a day is all I can manage, the mill runs 2 trucks and they try for 2 a day, but their trucks stay in the shop as much as they run, it seems like.

Kbeitz · January 03, 2016, 04:24:57 PM

Quote from: starmac on January 03, 2016, 03:59:28 PM
We have spruce as big as 40 inch at the butt, actually quite a bit in the 30 in range.
What hurts is the sawmill here can not handle over 25 inch timber, so all that we take them over 25 in, gets bucked for firewood till it gets down to 25 inches.

The spruce coming out of haines is sitka spruce, not white spruce. The guy there in Wasilla that builds custom homes, told me he had a customer that requested the sitka spruce, and he had 14,000 more in the price of the delivered logs. He mentioned freight cost him 4000 a load on them, but he had no plans to ever use them again.

The main problem with our big timber, is it is getting farther and farther from the road, so trucking is slow, 1 load a day is all I can manage, the mill runs 2 trucks and they try for 2 a day, but their trucks stay in the shop as much as they run, it seems like.

Maybe you should look into black powder splitting...

starmac · January 03, 2016, 05:03:47 PM

I hate to see big timber being processed for firewood, but it is actually worth more as firewood than it is for sawlogs here.
Around here, timber worth goes like this.
# 1 house logs, but not even close to all trees fall into this catagory even if the sie is right, and they are handled much differently, so more cost in getting them out of the woods, plus you sometimes have to sit on them, if you keep them in the spring, you have to peel them, so most loggers do not mess with them.
#2 firewood if you process it, but we have a lot of birch timber, and the only market at all here is firewood, a lot is sold in tree length.
#3 is sawlogs to the mill, any spruce 6 in top and better, cut to the mills lengths, which varies from 17 foot to 53 feet. The mills logging crews tops everything at 53, and I swear some of it will be down to 4 in tops.
# 4 Pulp to the pellet mill, has to be 90% spruce, they will take aspen but not much and the price is 10 bucks a ton cheaper. This is any length over 20 ft and down to 4 in tops, but they don't complain if it is even down to 2 in. There own logging crews process right to the top of the tree.
What I am saying is it is not cost effective to split or do any extra processing on the bigger timber as far as the markets we have. The mill takes it at sawlog price and just uses it for firewood, but the loggers get the same price for it.
It just pains me to see the best timber going to the firewood pile.

This is all changeing a little due to the price of oil, and the new epa restrictions, and will probably change much more, not really a good forecast for the next few years.

WLC · January 03, 2016, 08:44:51 PM

Starmac, didn't realize you had timber that big up there. WOW! Just out of curiosity how much would a load of house logs run?

Brandon, I saw that CL add as well, and also saw some negative stuff on the guy too. If I can't drag enough out to do what I need I may call him, but don't like taking chances.

I may be the guinea pig on using birch for framing. Couldn't hurt to try a shed or similar out of it.

starmac · January 03, 2016, 09:53:09 PM

Wlc only one logger that I haul for messes with house logs, he has been doing it for years and basically has his customers and takes orders. these are cut to the customers lengths and specified diameters.
I hauled 2 loads down there last year, both big loads, and iirs one was 10,500 delivered and one the smaller was 9500 delivered, 2000 thousand of each was my fee, Mike sent his on rig uo for one load, then decided it was cheaper to pay me. lol
I do not know if he goes by scale on these or linear feet, but can find out for sure wht he charges and how if you want. If everything goes good weather wise he should be back in the woods in another week or two, and besides the house logs, I haul all of his timber, for some reason last year he didn't even want me to bring in another truck, even when we were getting backed up and had to leave a couple of loads in the woods all year.

starmac · January 03, 2016, 09:56:27 PM

Do you have any big cottonwood down there. A couple of lowboy guys I know claim it makes better flooring than birch, claim you just have to redeck the trailer while it is green.

Brandon1986 · January 04, 2016, 12:15:14 AM

Haha We have hauled for German Mike too. I dont believe I would want to peel a 50" log.

starmac · January 04, 2016, 01:24:12 AM

Mike is a pretty nice and interesting guy, at least that was the impression I got from him. He was willing to BS and answer a lot of questions I had about the house log business, showed me the difference in sitka and white spruce, and showed me a log with a left hand twist, that was worthless, but you didn't know till you peeled it. lol

At the right time in the spring the logs peel fairly easy, the logger up here hires a guy to peel the ones that are not sold yet. I watched him a little bit, he used a clam shovel and made short work of it.