Saw-chain type for felling

[54Dutchman]

This may have been asked many times before, I am guessing, but I am not sure how to search for it.
I have a Stihl MS 460, will be cutting down mostly elm trees for lumber and firewood.  What would be the recommended chain type? Chisel, semi-chisel or square chisel?  Trees will vary from 12 inch and up for diameter.  Looking for a aggressive bite with good chip removal.
Thanks Gene. ??? ???

[beenthere]

What chain have you been used to using, and how do you sharpen... send out, by hand, or by grinder ?

[OldJack]

It looks like sharpening square chisel is a whole 'nuther ball game. Conventional grinders don't work and one that does costs $800 - $1000. Check out this thread.

http://firewoodhoardersclub.com/forums/threads/square-filing-chains.5670/

[John Mc]

For me, the choice would be chisel for felling. Usually the tree is still clean while it's standing, so no need to consider semi-chisel.  I personally find square chisel not worth the extra effort for the performance gained (though I agree it does cut nicely). If I were cutting for a living, or cutting something different than what I'm doing these days, I might feel differently.

With the MS 460, that would be 3/8" chisel, since the saw can certainly handle it. I think 3/8 clears chips a little better than .325 pitch.  If you are getting into really large wood, you might consider a skip-tooth chisel chain. It takes a little less power to pull through the wood, an dI've heard it clears chips from the groove better. I haven't had occasion to use it myself.

[John Mc]

BTW, is this American Elm? I don't run into any that big around here. Dutch Em disease tends to kill them off before they get that big.

BTW, if it is American Elm, have fun splitting it. (It's a good way to knock that any "tough-guy" city slicker friends of yours down a peg. Get yourself some white ash, and give them the American Elm and have a hand-splitting contest.)

[54Dutchman]

Yes american elm, chain 33RCS-91,I use a fiskars  X27 for splitting. 
The MS460 does not seem to be working to hard with this chain. ;D

[John Mc]

If you are splitting American Elm by hand, you are a better man than I, even with an X-27 (I use an X-25 to split about half my personal-use firewood, but any Elm goes to the hydraulic splitter). Enjoy your work-out (if you are not getting a work-out, it would make me question whether it's really American Elm).

Even when I use the splitter, I have to drive the ram all the way through the wood - and even then sometimes that last inch that my ram won't move is a problem - I have to throw in a spacer t close that last gap.

[HolmenTree]

chain 33RCS-91,
The MS460 does not seem to be working to hard with this chain. ;D

33RSC on a 28" bar is all the chain you need. Stihl has been marketing that style of chain on their larger pro saws for decades.....that right there is the best selling chain/MS460 powerhead combo.

[JohnG28]

I believe the 33RSC has a ramped raker, the C being for comfort=lower vibe=ramped/bumper link. It has the same cutter as 33RS, just different raker setup. For felling I doubt you'll notice much difference, but it will be harder to bore cut with. 33RS is full chisel, round ground with normal raker. I have a bunch or 33RS chains, they're good stuff.  8)

[HolmenTree]

I believe the 33RSC has a ramped raker, the C being for comfort=lower vibe=ramped/bumper link. It has the same cutter as 33RS, just different raker setup. For felling I doubt you'll notice much difference, but it will be harder to bore cut with. 33RS is full chisel, round ground with normal raker. I have a bunch or 33RS chains, they're good stuff.  8)

Actually the Comfort feature is not in the depth gauge at all, its in the heel of the cutter.

It must be almost 10 years ago now that  Stihl and Oregon redesigned their chains...... VibBan for Oregon, Comfort for Stihl.
They removed a portion off the bottom of the cutter under the heel behind the rear rivet. This clearance acts as a shock absorber as the chain is cutting reducing vibration.
Stihl stamped a C on the side of the cutter, Oregon uses a 1 barbed arrow.
I can show you a RS chain from the 1980s / 90s. Still a chisel cutter but a straight verticle front depth gauge with a ramp directly in front of it on top of a side link.
Took Stihl about 10 years to adapt the 33RS to the 1982 Oregon 72LG design.

[CR888]

I agree with Holmen with regard to chain choice with the exception of gauge choice.....I'd run 36RM or 36RMC if l could not get 36RM. I prefer .063 on high power saws in hardwood. I read Elm is a pretty hard species for what you have over there. Spread the load on the drive tangs and have them last the life of the chain. In our wood 050 makes big bars with big saws get really hot bars and chains.....it  won't clear chips and don't move oil. Drive tang maintenance is as important to me as depth gauges. All this may not be an issue for your part of the globe though. Still Aust delivers all new saws not running picco with 063 gauge chain. After l bought a bunch of big 050 bars out of the US......I learned 'why' this is the case, pity l did it the dumb/hard way! I have Sugi lights in 24" 28"32" 36" that sit piled in my shop as they are 050. I thought l was clever being 050 they could run picco milling and standard 3/8 bucking/felling. Expensive mistake!! In our hardwood in one/two cuts you can render a full chisel chain 'out of service' till it sees a grinder. 063/semi chisel is what works here.

[HolmenTree]

I agree alot of tougher wood fiber down under where you are and I see some of my .050 drive links losing chunks outta them when in steady hardwood.
We cut quite a bit of softwood here in the central to western America's where the thinner bars do better in the kerf binding softwood fibre, especially cedar......kind of like cutting palm.

[54Dutchman]

Sounds like I am on the right track with the chain; Thanks ;D ;D.  As far a splitting the elm, I use the 'peeling method', aim for 3 or 4 inches from the side and peel off the pieces.  If you 'try' to split the wood through center you will get your work out with out getting split wood.  I tried a small 5 ton electric splitter for use in the garage and it only lasted a year (it was not new), motor ran but did not move ram.

[John Mc]

Sounds like I am on the right track with the chain; Thanks ;D ;D.  As far a splitting the elm, I use the 'peeling method', aim for 3 or 4 inches from the side and peel off the pieces.  If you 'try' to split the wood through center you will get your work out with out getting split wood.  I tried a small 5 ton electric splitter for use in the garage and it only lasted a year (it was not new), motor ran but did not move ram.

I wonder if there is an official name for that technique. I always called it "flaking", but that's just my own term. I've heard a friend call it "slabbing" - I guess it is kind of like what you get when you cut a slab on a sawmill.

I don't have much Elm bigger than 7 or 8", so there is not much to work with with that technique. It does work well on the occasional larger pieces I run into.

[beenthere]

Flaking is a good term.. and the technique works well for splitting elm... when I used to do it by hand splitting maul.

[CTYank]

Sounds like I am on the right track with the chain; Thanks ;D ;D.  As far a splitting the elm, I use the 'peeling method', aim for 3 or 4 inches from the side and peel off the pieces.  If you 'try' to split the wood through center you will get your work out with out getting split wood.  I tried a small 5 ton electric splitter for use in the garage and it only lasted a year (it was not new), motor ran but did not move ram.

I wonder if there is an official name for that technique. I always called it "flaking", but that's just my own term. I've heard a friend call it "slabbing" - I guess it is kind of like what you get when you cut a slab on a sawmill.

I don't have much Elm bigger than 7 or 8", so there is not much to work with with that technique. It does work well on the occasional larger pieces I run into.

Some call it "daisying"- sometimes the connotation applies. :')

Some fiskars-folks (that I've seen) approach 'em all that way, even red oak, that they could pop right down the middle for starters.

[Greyhound]

I totally agree.  3/8ths, full chisel, round ground, Stihl = RS, Oregon = LGX.  Do not use any  "reduced kickback" style chain with the extra bumpers.  It makes bore cutting a PITA.  Gauge 0.050 vs. 0.063 is basically irrelevant.  Use whichever matches your bar. Have fun and be safe.

[HolmenTree]

Here's some measurements I took of the differences in thicknesses of .050 and .063 bars.
The .050 bar is .028" thinner then the .063 bar.
Think of a plate of steel over a half drive link thick over a 3 foot long bar. That's alot of extra weight and extra kerf binding in softwood. ;)


  

 

[Walnut Beast]

I agree with Holmen with regard to chain choice with the exception of gauge choice.....I'd run 36RM or 36RMC if l could not get 36RM. I prefer .063 on high power saws in hardwood. I read Elm is a pretty hard species for what you have over there. Spread the load on the drive tangs and have them last the life of the chain. In our wood 050 makes big bars with big saws get really hot bars and chains.....it  won't clear chips and don't move oil. Drive tang maintenance is as important to me as depth gauges. All this may not be an issue for your part of the globe though. Still Aust delivers all new saws not running picco with 063 gauge chain. After l bought a bunch of big 050 bars out of the US......I learned 'why' this is the case, pity l did it the dumb/hard way! I have Sugi lights in 24" 28"32" 36" that sit piled in my shop as they are 050. I thought l was clever being 050 they could run picco milling and standard 3/8 bucking/felling. Expensive mistake!! In our hardwood in one/two cuts you can render a full chisel chain 'out of service' till it sees a grinder. 063/semi chisel is what works here.

I've heard many mixed opinions. For all you big timers that bore cut how happy or mad would I be running a full skip square ground chain or a full skip micro on a 30" bar vs regular full chisel chain in bigger wood. Is the plunge cutting really tricky or do you get use to it. 

[Nealm66]

Chisel bit is what I use. Definitely want 63 gauge on a 30" bar or it will start running very quickly as your teeth shorten. The sharper chisel corners help for cleaning your undercut and definitely for boring. It can be round filed but I use a chisel grinder and if I want it to bore better I can run a slight hook but it will dull faster. Hope this helps 

[sawguy21]

I started working around saws in the mid 70's and have yet to see 3/8 x .063, nobody in this area uses it. I really fail to see where it would be an advantage in our softwoods, hardwoods may be different. Semi skip in anything over 30" was the norm to keep the kerf from clogging. Never encountered square ground either. Different markets.

[Larry]

I've heard many mixed opinions. For all you big timers that bore cut how happy or mad would I be running a full skip square ground chain or a full skip micro on a 30" bar vs regular full chisel chain in bigger wood. Is the plunge cutting really tricky or do you get use to it.

Soren Erickson taught me how to bore cut in Game of Logging class 24 years ago.  He also taught me how to sharpen semi-skip square chain.  He bore cut almost everything.

I still bore cut every tree big nuff to get a bar through.  I also buck a lot of logs using a bore cut.  Now, I normally use standard chisel chain.

While I love using semi-skip square, I never cut enough to really get proficient at hand filing and don't own machine to sharpen it.  So now I only use square on occasion when I want an extra treat!  

[Nealm66]

If you're new to bore cutting, practice with a log and give a little twist on the motor as you're pushing in. If you're going with the direct lean on a large hard leaner, cut a little off both the side straps to prevent barber chair. I rarely use bore cuts unless I'm trying to eliminate stump pull for merchantability. Just safer to fall it to the side of its lean

[Walnut Beast]

I started working around saws in the mid 70's and have yet to see 3/8 x .063, nobody in this area uses it. I really fail to see where it would be an advantage in our softwoods, hardwoods may be different. Semi skip in anything over 30" was the norm to keep the kerf from clogging. Never encountered square ground either. Different markets.

My reasoning for going.063 on my new bar from cannon is all the advantages it has after researching and the final straw of pulling the trigger was after having a good conversation with the owner of Cannon about it.

[Walnut Beast]

Thanks Larry! I might give that semi square a go!