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fuel mixture

Started by woodsdog2015, December 14, 2015, 09:46:37 PM

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woodsdog2015

Ok I recently watched a video on youtube from a trusted source and this person explained that they run a 32:1 mixture in all of their saws.  Three of the four saws I own require 50:1 the big Homelite 8800 I have requires 32:1..... I'm asking the pros or the sawshop owners or both on their opinions about this.  I have two stihls and an echo too and the owners manuals all recommend 50:1.  Does it void the Stihl warranty to run a mixture with a little more oil? Does it protect the components better?  What are your recommendations???? 
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
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CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

Jiles

That same person that advised to use 32:1 ratio, probably changes his auto oil every 3K miles.
Modern two stroke oil is vastly superior to what we had years ago.
With that being said, I have worked on small engines for over fifty years and it is my opinion that  50-1 is an EPA forced requirement. I personally like to run app 40:1 and tune the saw for that mix.
Instead of 2.6 oz. to one gallon, I just add 3 oz.
Be advised that the modern two stroke is an extremely high output engine, for its size, and is greatly effected by carburetor mixture.
When I sell a chainsaw, I advise them to use non ethanol premium gasoline and a high quality oil and if they use lower octane gas, or use 2.6 oz., it needs to be tuned for it.
It's just that critical.
Also, I would not think 32-1 mix would damage anything other then maybe fouling sparkplug if lugged or allowed to idle for long periods.
As far dealer approval, I would not know, but I think most would advise against it.
Satisfy needs before desires

Ianab

When I bought my Stihl and Dolmar saws the dealers specifically told me to ignore the oil mix in the manual, and mix at 25:1. Explanation was that NZ gas is formulated differently and needed more oil. This wasn't just a couple of hick dealers either, the NZ bottled Dolmar oil that came with the saw had the 25:1 ratio on it, so it was the official distributor policy, and as far as I know it still is.




This leads me to believe that running more oil is not going to cause any issues. Now you are probably fine running 50:1 with the right gas and good oil, most of the world does. In fact the 32:1 ratio on your older saw is more about the quality of the oil that was sold when it was made. It would probably run fine on 50:1 with a modern oil mix.

But I run all my 2 strokes at 32:1 and haven't had any oil related issues.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

woodsdog2015

I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

thecfarm

I run 40:1 in all my saws. I have a husky 372 and a small Efco. The 372 I've had for 10 years,maybe 12. I also run the highest grade of gas that I can get at my local gas station. I have no way to turn back the clock and try 50:1 for 10 years and see if there is a diffeance or not.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

49er

AVgas or non ethanol gas @32:1 for me. No plug fouling. IMO more oil saves the bottom end.
However,like Jiles said, change your mix or gas and ya have to retune. Big difference between AV-gas and pump gas even at the same oil ratio.
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

Jiles

All my two stroke equipment has been modified. When one starts acting up, I dump and change the gas.
I do this even though other items run fine on that gas out of same container?? For some reason this happens occasionally and I have no explanation--its just  the way they are--- LOL
I have worked on MANY saws/blowers/trimmers that had nothing wrong except that the owner got on the carb. adjustment screws, and didn't change their gas.
Some people are in disagreement with me, and that's OK with me. I personally see no need for periodic carb adjustment on any engine. Carburetors don't get out of adjustment, they get restricted, damaged, or have air leaks somewhere. Many times, adjustment only mask a problem and may run better for a while.
Satisfy needs before desires

HolmenTree

Back in the day when working 8 hr a day with the old saws with carbs mounted solidly to the cylinder and intake manifold block, the vibration of the saw would gradually turn the H L carb screws out. Never in but out and richen up. I always carried a carb adjustment screw driver in my pocket to reset the carb every few days or so.
New saws today definitely have a better anti vibe setup in the intake manifolds avoiding this condition.

Yes the 50:1 mix ratio is a EPA standard but with todays full synthetic oil Stihl sells and the semi synthetic Husqvarna sells you can't go wrong. But you'll notice on the back of those bottles they recommend either 32:1, 40:1 or 50:1. I have always run the middle ground ratio 40:1 

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

woodsdog2015

Good to know and this doesn't void warranty then either right?
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

old2stroke

All oils are not created equal.  Some are meant for lower power density engines like 2-stroke lawnmowers (if you can find any) and other are meant for water cooled engines like outboard motors where the cylinder head temperatures don't get too severe.  Modern chainsaws put out a LOT of power and often run at full throttle for long periods and they get very hot. They require the best SYNTHETIC oils that are meant for motocross bikes, snowmobiles and racing gokarts and they need to be mixed ACCURATELY.  These oils burn very clean and won't foul plugs with a 30:1 mix or even richer.  If you are fouling plugs, the air/fuel mix is probably too rich for the operating conditions or you have a sparkplug that is way too cold.  For normal use, I don't go leaner than 35:1 but If you are using a lumber mill or cutting up  4' dia. trees  when it is 95deg F in the shade, maybe even richer.   
Not too many saws.  Not enough storage space.

CR888

BMEP's are not that high in chainsaws compared to other high output two strokes. They do NOT require the best synthetic motorcycle oils that are diester/ester based at all. Still only put synthetic oil into their lineup when they wanted to keep valves in four mix engines clean. For many years fb rated mineral oil has been and still is their spec oil. Heavy bike oils designed for very different conditions to what a chainsaw will ever see. Synthetic oil was originally designed for its heat resistance properties, (not its lubricating ones) for the use in aircraft turbines as they evolved and got much hotter. A good mineral fb rated oil will not cause tuning issues and will happily keep your chainsaw in service for many years as it has done for decades. FWIW, if l was to use ester based oil in worksaws, each year the additional cost is enough to replace the whole saw brand new. Lots of misinformation on this subject, people loose rational thought when making oil choices.

HolmenTree

Quote from: woodsdog2015 on December 14, 2015, 09:46:37 PM
I have two stihls and an echo too and the owners manuals all recommend 50:1.  Does it void the Stihl warranty to run a mixture with a little more oil? Does it protect the components better?  What are your recommendations????
As I said earlier on the back of the Stihl Ultra full synthetic oil bottle it has instructions for mixing 32:1, 40:1, 50:1.
Stihl claim to extend their saws warranty if this oil is used.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Texas-Jim

Any additional fluids taken in with the fuel air mix can serve to reduce the amount of volume taken up by fuel, therefore making the engine run lean. So if you do not re jet the carb that extra oil is doing  more harm than good. And no adjusting the carb wont really help, you can turn that screw till your bored but it wont alter the jets size. Oil molecules are huge compared to gasoline, the heavier the oil mix the larger the jet has to be.

There is always a 'factory' mix ratio given for all two stroke motors. its there for a reason. the motor is designed to operate at this ratio. in any motor, 2 or 4 stroke, lessoning the fuel will cause lean burn. even though oil burns, it is in 2 strokes as a lubricant, not a fuel.
What we do in life echoes through eternity.

tyb525

This seems to be a controversial topic that I have seen come up numerous times. A google search came up with some good results. Here is one link in particular, while it references 2 stroke dirtbikes, helped me understand a little better I think.

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/twostroke-fuel-ratios-premix-myth-vs-reality-54169.html
An interesting qoute:

"A second test they performed was to run synthetic in two identical engines and one was run at 24:1, the other was run at 50:1 The engine that ran 24:1 had less piston skirt wear, and less rod bearing wear, but had the same main roller bearing wear as the engine run at 50:1."


After doing some reading, I think I have changed my stance, it now makes more sense that more oil=leaner burn if the carb is not jetted for it.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Al_Smith

Oh goody the oil wars once again 8)

Al_Smith

Here we go sports fans let me fan the flames a bit to get things rolling .

If 32 to one ratio fouls plugs how does one explain how old outboard boat motors ran on 16 to one .The only time they fouled was at trolling speeds .Then again nobody I know trolls with a chainsaw.

Lean burn has nothing to do with oil ratio .It's fuel to air ratio .If oil thins the mixture then logic says leaner oil ratios  should be zero oil, straight gasoline .How come nobody does that ?

I'm a 32 to one man .Just to show my hearts in right place I do have a 2 gallon can in the shed mixed at 40 to one with Stihl ultra .Simple explanation I ran out of saw gas and didn't feel like doing all that measuring .

sawguy21

Quote from: Al_Smith on December 15, 2015, 09:53:27 PM
If 32 to one ratio fouls plugs how does one explain how old outboard boat motors ran on 16 to one .The only time they fouled was at trolling speeds .Then again nobody I know trolls with a chainsaw.
That was with ordinary 30W, all we had at the time. If a modern two stroke oil is mixed that way a white goop of water and unburned oil that looks like Lubriplate grease spews into the lake. An acquaintance who is very much stuck in the 50's still insists on doing it.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

tyb525

Al I think the logic is, say you run 20:1 in a saw tuned for 50:1. There is a higher volume of oil and less gas, but the same amount of air, which is theory makes the mixture leaner. More oil=less room for gas in the mix, while the amount of air stays the same (in theory). I definitely wouldn't say I'm a diehard supporter of the theory, but it makes more sense to me now than it used to.

That being said, I can also see the reasoning behind more oil=better because of more lubrication. And it makes sense that older 2-stroke ran 16:1 or whatever and were perfectly fine.

I think the whole thing boils down to having your motor tuned for the mixture you are running, like don't run 20:1 in a motor tuned for 100:1.

Personally I run 50:1, I use the small bottles made for 2.5 gal gas, cause I'm too lazy to measure.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Al_Smith

Quote from: tyb525 on December 15, 2015, 10:29:25 PM



I think the whole thing boils down to having your motor tuned for the mixture you are running, like don't run 20:1 in a motor tuned for 100:1.


About the only people I know who would use 100/1 ratio work for the company that touts that stuff .That aside tuning is the simple turn of a screw .

I don't use motor oil any more but back in the day, did .It didn't foul plugs but it did throw out a smog like fogging for mosquitos .Then again I don't know anybody who  uses a chainsaw to annoy mosquitos .---next---

John Mc

Quote from: tyb525 on December 15, 2015, 10:29:25 PM
Al I think the logic is, say you run 20:1 in a saw tuned for 50:1. There is a higher volume of oil and less gas, but the same amount of air, which is theory makes the mixture leaner.

Believe me, Al has heard all this before and understands what you are saying. The Oil Ratio Wars have raged here for years. Seems as though someone brings them up again every few months. I'm guessing some years ago, Al may have been an active participant. Now he just waits for someone to start, then winds us all up again while he watches the spectacle. You could probably get a solid month's worth of reading material if you did a search on oil ratios on this board.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

49er

Quote from: tyb525 on December 15, 2015, 10:29:25 PM

Personally I run 50:1, I use the small bottles made for 2.5 gal gas, cause I'm too lazy to measure.

Now that's just sad. :-[
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

Raider Bill

Why? That's  the way I do it too.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

HolmenTree

Quote from: 49er on December 16, 2015, 04:34:46 PM
Quote from: tyb525 on December 15, 2015, 10:29:25 PM

Personally I run 50:1, I use the small bottles made for 2.5 gal gas, cause I'm too lazy to measure.

Now that's just sad. :-[
I'll throw a wrench in the gear thinking here :D
I wish here in Canada we never converted to the metric system in the 1970s. But today in Canada we still build our houses in feet and inches ::)
Those little bottles tyb525 mentioned are 200 ML [1 cup is 240 ML] 2.5 gal is approx. 10 liters mixed with 200 ML is 50:1
I mix 200 ML mix to 8 liters gas [approx. 2 gals] which makes 40:1
Because a liter is slightly larger then a U.S. quart then the U.S. little bottle would be smaller then our 200 ML bottles.........enough confusion? :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

CR888

I hear ya Holmen! Just a question...when you see a saw spec sheet that states 12.8 pounds, is that 12 pounds eight ounces? Or is it 12 pound +.8 (8/10ths) of a pound. Mmmmm it hurts your head!!

HolmenTree

I'm thinking 12 lbs 8 ounces but I could be wrong :D

Here's a good example of the confusion we had here in Manitoba in 1983 when Air Canada fueled up a brand new 767 mistaking pounds for kilograms in fuel weight when new computers were first being used.

Excellent documentary about the Gimli Glider , this pilot reviled the pilot who landed the engineless jumbo jet on the Hudson River a few years back ......and he landed his engineless plane on a concrete drag strip that was been used on a busy Saturday race day!!!

https://youtu.be/n0MMDRTmqVM
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

thecfarm

One more wrench.  ;D  I buy the bottles too. The ones that are for 5 gallons of gas,but I only put 4 gallons in. Here's your wrench.  :D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sawguy21

Quote from: CR888 on December 16, 2015, 06:55:23 PM
I hear ya Holmen! Just a question...when you see a saw spec sheet that states 12.8 pounds, is that 12 pounds eight ounces? Or is it 12 pound +.8 (8/10ths) of a pound. Mmmmm it hurts your head!!
That would be 12 lb + 8/10 of a pound (12.8 oz). Got it? :D I like the metric system, the secret is not trying to convert back and forth. 100ml to 5L of gas is 50:1. Simple. DanGed if I remember how many oz to a gallon then I have to know if U.S. or Imperial. After 40 years of metric I really don't care either. The only time I have to watch it is when we go south and have to deal with highway signs.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Al_Smith

Okay metricaly inclined  explain this one .Merry Olde England gave us 3 barley corns equal an inch etc then jumped ship and went metric .Okay I'll buy that .

Why then on British motorcycle sites do they give measurements in inches plus still sell beer in pints .A great conundrum .--okay back to the great debate ---.Where's the Amsoil crowd at any way?

Texas-Jim

Running more oil shouldn't have much effect on fouling unless its ran slow a lot. But most of our saws spend their life screaming so thats not a real concern. Honest truth is i very much doubt that more or less oil will seriously effect the life of a saw much. We know altering the amount of oil leads to certain things, but the question is do those things shorten or lengthen the saws life.

One thing to consider is oils like Stihl's ultra oil which is synthetic cant really be compared to the old petrol oil. So it may have been needed to run more oil in days past but its not now. As an example Stihl doubles their warranty if you buy it, that means a string trimmer carries a 4 year warranty. That tells me that at least Stihl assumes that the oil makes the extra warranty a good gamble.
What we do in life echoes through eternity.

Texas-Jim

Al_Smith just as a diversion England actually used a system called whitworth before metric. I had an old greeves motorcycle and nothing would fit it.
What we do in life echoes through eternity.

Al_Smith

Okay historians here's one for you .The rotary aircraft engines circa pre 1920 used oil in the fuel because they had no way to install a crankcase .If too much oil fouled plugs and it was lower grades of oil than  we have today do you suppose they would use this type engine in WW1 aircraft. That could have been bad, a seven cylinder engine running on 3 .BTW they blew oil all over everything.

Al_Smith

If I recall correct Whitworth was 60 degree threads but the thread form was rounded off .

49er

I rebuilt a Ford 700r4e transmission recently. It had METRIC stamped in the oil pan. That's good info I thought. Well, the bolts that hold the pan on are ,yep, English.
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

woodsdog2015

Won't ask that one again!  I just wanted to know if it made sense to run all of my saws 32:1 instead of some 50:1 etc. if it meant longer engine life, reduced chance of piston and cylinder wear and didn't void a warranty for a new saw... I'd do it.  BTW I use the Stihl oil in the gray bottles because when I bought my 362 if you bought a pack of their oil they extend the warranty another year. 
I'd rather be in the woods.
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MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
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John Mc

Hey, nothing wrong with asking. Didn't intend for my post to sound like it was coming down on you. It's a very common debate here.

To attempt to summarize just about every iteration of the debate I've seen here:

  • Running a little heavier on your oil will not void your warranty
  • Everyone has their own theories on the "best" oil mixture ratio. Very few people recommend running less oil (higher than 50:1), even if you are running oil that claims it's safe to do so. Very few people recommend running more oil (lower ratio) than 32:1.
  • Use a quality oil made for use with chainsaws. (Not one made for use with water-cooled engines, such as marine engines - they don't run as hot as chainsaw engines)
  • adjust your carb for the fuel and mixture you are running. If you make significant changes t the fuel (e.g. ethanol vs.non-ethanol gas) or to the oil mix ratio, you should probably retune your saw
  • If you are using a quality modern oil, you can probably get away with a bit higher ratio (less oil) than what was originally recommended for that antique saw you are running, despite what was specified for it "back in the day".

I'm sue there are more bullet points I've missed, but that is what comes to mind.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mad murdock

Al, those LeRhone and Gnome rotary engines used castor oil for lube. There was an oil pump on them that injected it in the air/fuel stream. A crude throttle plate and a "burp" switch for the ignition is how you controlled the rpm. 2 strokers those things were to boot. Long stroke on those engines. They pulled a lot of torque as the screws on those old planes where plenty long.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

leeroyjd

Thanks for the link to the Gimli Glider Holmen tree! That was excellent!

HolmenTree

Quote from: leeroyjd on December 17, 2015, 05:10:00 AM
Thanks for the link to the Gimli Glider Holmen tree! That was excellent!
Your welcome leeroyjd,
Sometimes it's best to derail a thread with some entertainment when the thread starts to get out of hand hehe.
Yes pretty amazing what an old school pilot can do especially when he learned to fly in a glider.
When I was in the air cadets as a kid we were able to train flying gliders.  If I didn't start logging at 16 I probably would have stayed in the cadets and got my flying license.  Wish I did.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Jiles

Quote from: 49er on December 16, 2015, 09:57:26 PM
I rebuilt a Ford 700r4e transmission recently. It had METRIC stamped in the oil pan. That's good info I thought. Well, the bolts that hold the pan on are ,yep, English.

I have rebuilt many 700-- but can't remember one made by Ford.
Satisfy needs before desires

Chop Shop

Quote from: CR888 on December 15, 2015, 05:11:55 PM
BMEP's are not that high in chainsaws compared to other high output two strokes. They do NOT require the best synthetic motorcycle oils that are diester/ester based at all. Still only put synthetic oil into their lineup when they wanted to keep valves in four mix engines clean. For many years fb rated mineral oil has been and still is their spec oil. Heavy bike oils designed for very different conditions to what a chainsaw will ever see. Synthetic oil was originally designed for its heat resistance properties, (not its lubricating ones) for the use in aircraft turbines as they evolved and got much hotter. A good mineral fb rated oil will not cause tuning issues and will happily keep your chainsaw in service for many years as it has done for decades. FWIW, if l was to use ester based oil in worksaws, each year the additional cost is enough to replace the whole saw brand new. Lots of misinformation on this subject, people loose rational thought when making oil choices.



X2 for real.

I run GALLONS of fuel a week slabbing with a 3 and 5 foot mill.      I use crappy ETHANOL fuel and cheap ORANGE Stihl oil at 50 to one.

NEVER a problem.   I run a whole tank at a time at FULL throttle all day long.



If I ran 32 to one, the saw would kill me with excess exhaust fumes.


To each his own, but I cut LOTS and like 50 to one.  Anymore oil and your just giving away performance.

49er

Chop Shop, wouldn't it pay ya to get a small band mill? It seems to me to be far more efficient.
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

Al_Smith

Milling with a chainsaw is indeed an option which works .It also is a very labor intensive method .

woodsdog2015

Thanks for the synopsis John Mc.,,, that does help me!!!!
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

Chop Shop

Quote from: 49er on December 17, 2015, 05:25:17 PM
Chop Shop, wouldn't it pay ya to get a small band mill? It seems to me to be far more efficient.

I do.  I have a HudSon bandmill and a Mobile Dimension and two chain mills for slabbing.


When cutting beautiful wood with unknown debris, the chain is the cheapest thing to hit FOD with.   

The chain mill is labor intensive but anything worth a dang comes from good ol hard work.   ;)

John Mc

Quote from: woodsdog2015 on December 17, 2015, 11:55:03 PM
Thanks for the synopsis John Mc.,,, that does help me!!!!

Hope it helped. I'm far from an expert, but I've read enough of these threads to pick up some common themes.

I did leave out a biggee on the list: 

  • Run fresh gas.

This is important with any fuel, but the shelf life of the ethanol blends is significantly shorter than that of the non-ethanol blends.  There are two main problems with ethanol in gas:

  • It attacks many rubber/plastic compounds, causing them to swell, or degrade, or become stiff/brittle. In modern saws, this has been addressed to some degree by new materials that are more resistant to the effects of ethanol.
  • Phase separation: ethanol is hygroscopic - it really wants to bind with water. It can even pull moisture out of the air. When enough moisture is "grabbed", the ethanol/water mix settles out in the fuel can or in your chainsaw's tank. There are several problems with this: The ethanol adds to the octane rating of the fuel. When it drops out, the remaining fuel now has an octane rating that can be as much as 3 or 4 points lower than the original fuel. The water ethanol mixutre has no oil in it, so it has not lubricating properties - not fun when you suck a slug of that into your engine. Lastly, the ethanol/water mix is corrosive - if phase separation occurs, and it sits in your engine long enough, it can damage components

Fuel stabilizers can help, but they do not eliminate all the problems of using old fuel. You may get by with it, then again, you may not. Folks who turn over their fuel quickly (Like Chop Shop who reported he uses gallons of ethanol fuel a week) tend not to have as much a problem.

Personally, I think the biggest factor is just plain old taking care of your equipment. Use fresh fuel, run it often (or store it properly if it won't be run regularly), keep it tuned, and listen - your chainsaw will talk to you if you pay attention. If it sounds different, or it starts acting differently, you should probably take the time to find out why.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

woodsdog2015

John Mc.  Agreed.  I use 100% non-ethanol in all of my two strokes, my lawn mower and my four-wheeler.  I've had too  many problems with not using it and none while using it.  Although the guys that run stuff everyday claim no issues but they  go through equipment at a much faster rate so fuel lines and what not rotting out aren't as much of an issue for them because they are replacing their saws and what not more frequently.  That's a good forum question though, I wonder how long a pro-grade saw lasts the pros who use them virtually every day?
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

HolmenTree

Last time when I was logging wearing out a pro saw in a year, we were still burning leaded gas which helped protect the saw.
Today running a tree service my main saw is a 3 year old 562XP with about 1500 hrs on it and still haven't changed the carb diaphrams yet, still runs perfect. Always ran premium unleaded and mix with fuel stablizer in it.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

Funny thing about that .It seems to me if you run the things on a regular bassis the carb innards seem to stay supple .Yet if only ran on occasion they stiffen up faster .Old non leaded gas they could go for years .

CR888

Fortunately l have good access to non ethanol unleaded here in oz. It's actually hard to find E10/E85 outside the cities. John Mc makes many good points and l agree with the 'moral of the story' in regard to his post. It's the fact that those who have no choice but to run ethanol fuels need to use harm minimisation strategies to deal with ethanol. If you understand the evil he is far easier to deal with and one can do things to protect their OPE from ethanol inflicted injuries. Being hygroscopic (like synthetic oils) it attracts moisture and suffers phase separation. You need to do things different than traditional fuel system practice. Running equipment dry is good for not just storage but also occasionally used OPE. Top off tanks at end of day with daily used OPE ect. Keep fuel as fresh as possible even if it means more frequent trips to gas station. Check fuel systems more frequently and have spare fuel hose that is know to be ethanol resistant. We can sit back cry poor and suffer the effects of government induced ethanol policy or we can change tact and deal with it the best we can. And yes chainsaws talk to you when their not feeling 100%.......ya can help em if ya listening!!

woodsdog2015

CR888 I didn't realize synthetic oils attract moisture??? So the moral is if you're going to let it sit, run the fuel with the moisure attracting synthetic oil out of it right?  I really don't plan on letting my saws sit too much but is a month sitting? 
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

woodsdog2015

Holmen, I figured people who do this for a living go through saws frequently.  I didn't think a year though I figured 3-5.  So not to put you on the spot and you don't have to answer but with your experience, would you say the Husky 562XP is the most reliable saw going right now or ????  I'm a Stihl Fan but it seems like a lot of pros use the Husky's.
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

CR888

Yes 100% synthetic ester base is hygroscopic, anti corrosive additives help this, it is a big problem for rack bikes in the off season, l would not want any sticky substance in my 2T crankcases that will draw moisture out of the air when things lay sit unused for periods. Better ring seal with mineral oil. Better ring seal.....better power.

HolmenTree

Quote from: woodsdog2015 on December 19, 2015, 11:36:46 PM
Holmen, I figured people who do this for a living go through saws frequently.  I didn't think a year though I figured 3-5.  So not to put you on the spot and you don't have to answer but with your experience, would you say the Husky 562XP is the most reliable saw going right now or ????  I'm a Stihl Fan but it seems like a lot of pros use the Husky's.
Logging with one pro saw 6.5 to 8 hours a day 5 days a week after one year would start to be worn out enough to lose production capability and then it's  time for a new one.
That old saw can still be sold to a homeowner for about $300. Which makes good down payment on a new one and the new one is another tax write off.

The 562XP is one of  if not the most durable pro saw in its  class on the market at the  moment. 550XP following the 562XP in the 50cc class.
Stihl will catch up as their next generation  of saws in those classes plus a 77cc model will be introduced shortly ......with a design very close to the 550/562 with the laid back cylinder design.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

CR888

That layed back cylinder design appears quite a unique Husky design. It is a big change from the vertical upright design adopted by everyone else up to this point. As much as l am not a Husky guy, l own a 550xp & 555?? and l own a MS261 stihl. Without a doubt the 5 series saws are class leaders, the 60cc class is same size weight as other pro 50cc saws, the 550 50cc class is similar size/weight to MS241 40cc class. With reevboost, quad port cylinder, springs, & AT they are very pleasing to run. The air filter could do with an upgrade, but that's being picky.

CTYank

Quote from: thecfarm on December 16, 2015, 07:39:42 PM
One more wrench.  ;D  I buy the bottles too. The ones that are for 5 gallons of gas,but I only put 4 gallons in. Here's your wrench.  :D

Wrench? Where? If you mix 4/5 of the fuel that would result in 50:1 with a given amount of oil, bingo, you have 40:1. Piece o' cake. Exactly what I do, or at least approximately.

One thing not mentioned yet is where all that oil goes. It gets "smoked" out the exhaust, right to where our lungs get their supply of air. None of it gets burnt. The oil ends up as microscopic spherules laced with POM- polycyclic organic molecules. Really bad stuff, which gets carried deep into your lungs.

People have investigated this, and find that increasing oil percentage by X% gives an X% increase in POM generation. Not wanting to marinate my lungs in it, I keep ratio to 40:1 or slightly above, and try to make good use of the prevailing wind. (I do remember 16:1 dino-oil days!)

Most everyone likes to dump on the EPA, but they are trying to protect us from ourselves.  :snowball:
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

Al_Smith

You can about gas yourself taking off a big stump about ground level .About the only thing  as bad is milling with a chainsaw .My two least favorite uses of a chainsaw.

beenthere

CTYank

QuoteMost everyone likes to dump on the EPA, but they are trying to protect us from ourselves.

Bull Puckey, it's a runaway train with license to do whatever they 'want to' and 'can do' to justify their existence. No room here to count the many ways we shoot ourselves in the foot (or the old saying "cut a fat hog in the ***) thanks to the EPA.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Al_Smith

IMO some EPA rulings are justified but conversely I do believe they are self promoting more times that not .That list is endless .

Al_Smith

So I sit here sipping coffee at o-dark thirty in the morn and a thought occurred to me .How come some people liken a dang chainsaw to an urn from the Ming dynasty .Rather maybe a vintage 1921 Indian motorcycle or a Fabrege egg destined for Catherine the great .

It's a tool .Some of us collect them, some of us restore ,massage ,tweek and twitter them but the bottom line still remains, it's a tool .

So that in mind other than the amusement value how many people actually travel 200 miles round trip just to buy special gasoline, petrol or what ever it's called to slake it's thirst .My bet is about .005 percent .

How many actually measure out for this special fuel, special oil ? I visualize a garage set up like a laboratory with beakers, test tubes and some guy in a white smock.

Nay I say .My money is on 99 44/100 % do just like myself .Dump the oil in the can and fill it full of gasoline and go run the noisey thing .Mine of course are noisey seeings I'm one of those outlaws the chainsaw police are after for altering the mufflers but that brings up another subject that might be as much fun as the oil wars . . :D

woodsdog2015

Its a good point Al_Smith.  My only concern is to stretch out my investment for as long as I can for as cost effective as I can a;though the more I use the saws and learn about them, their history, and other useful and interesting facts like the topics discussed on this forum, I seem to covet them more and look at them less like a tool and more like a good gun.... which arguably is also a tool in many respects.  I'm sure their is a full spectrum of users from that benefit from these kinds of discussions no matter what.
I'd rather be in the woods.
MS362CM
MS251
CS-300
Homelite 8800
FiskarsX27

ZeroJunk

I wonder what laid back has to do with longevity ?  Stihl 032's 056's etc. were laid back 30 years ago.

John Mc

You can run ethanol fuel successfully in chainsaws (especially modern ones with updated plastics and rubber compounds)... no argument about that. There are also issues with ethanol that can adversely effect small engines. If you tune your saws properly, turn your fuel over quickly and don't leave it sitting in machines or cans for extended periods, you will most likely be just fine for the most part.

For us mere mortals who don't use a saw every day (or even every week), and might forget to drain the tanks, or occasionally have older gas sitting around, it makes some sense to take what steps you can to protect your investment. Would I drive 200 miles round trip to get non-ethanol fuel? Not a chance. I also won't burn Aviation gas (despite it being fairly convenient for me - it's expensive and a health hazard). Nor will I spend mega bucks for the canned fuel. Will I bring along a fuel can to fill at the station with non-ethanol premium that I pass several times a week? Sure. It only cost about 5 or 10¢/gallon more than the alternative. I also put in a fuel stabilizer, in case it sits longer than I intended (and even then, the occasional couple gallons of fuel gets dumped in my car, if it's not mixed with oil, or in my lawnmower if it is mixed). For me, it's cheap insurance.

E10 gas, canned fuel, avgas, all have their pros and cons. Any one of these may be a better solution for some people. I use what has the best trade-off of cost and convenience for me.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

HolmenTree

Quote from: ZeroJunk on December 24, 2015, 01:01:06 AM
I wonder what laid back has to do with longevity ?  Stihl 032's 056's etc. were laid back 30 years ago.
There was no references in prior posts that the new Husqvarna  laid back cylinder design has anything to do with longevity.......only that the new Stihl's introduced with have the Husqvarna 562XP (ultra )laid back design.
Which is much lower then Stihl's decades old design.

But while we're on the subject of durability,  the more a front muffler mounted cylinder is laid back, the better centered the cylinder and muffler is to the fan wheel for better cooling.
On the subject of synthetic oil as some suggested it's better for high heat. I have to add it's also better for  freezing temperatures below 0° F for better fluidity.
More  wear on engine parts is during cold startup and warmup so the better qualities of synthetic is an advantage.

I read a Stihl quote once that their Ultra full synthetic mix is bio degradable after the gas it's mixed with is burned  through the engine. Better for the lungs and environment..........

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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