iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Circular blade identification.

Started by Sawmillpilot, December 12, 2015, 03:54:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sawmillpilot

Hello all, just signed up today, 12-12-15. I'm in the process of acquiring parts, and pieces to build a Circular Sawmill.  So far I have a 45" blade, with 30 teeth.  3-8 on the shank.  I also, for free I might add, a 48" 28 tooth blade.  It has no real markings that I can identify. Trying to upload a picture of the tooth, but of course it seems to be a mystery to a newbie.

  The shank has 2 holes, similar to the 3-8 shank, but they are 1 7/8" apart instead of 1 5/8" on the 3-8 shank.



  This blade is very old, and I'm figuring, (but hoping not), there is no parts left for this old monster, which is really too bad, since it's a very nice blade!

  This is going to be a long process.  I have several questions, and any direction to past posts that I can't seem to find would be greatly appreciated.
A goal without a plan is just a dream...

Chuck White

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Sawmillpilot.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Jeff

Those shanks should be stamped with a number
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Sawmillpilot

It's so worn down that I can't find any markings.
A goal without a plan is just a dream...

Jeff

Did you clean it up and check every shank? 
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Sawmillpilot

Working on it. Everything is soaking with a good coat of Kroil.  With any luck I'll be able to look at the blade Monday.  Sitting at work 90 miles from the shop.  I also am hoping to clean the blade up and see if I can find any identification on the blade itself.  This mill is very interesting.  It's home made with parts that came on the boat from Norway back in the day.  Will get pictures soon!
A goal without a plan is just a dream...

Jeff

Monday you could call sponsor menominee saw. They will know if no one here can help.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Corley5

Looks like a #3 :-\  If it is bits and shanks are still available.  Your other one may be a 2 1/2.  I think they are about to be obsolete from what I've read somewhere.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

As you state, it does have the look of a style 3 inserted tooth, as indicated by the two holes and the slot from the hole closest to the tooth; large sizes do have two holes.  A 2-1/2 style has one hole.  Do you have the tool to remove the shank and tooth?  I do believe the spacing difference you note is because of the manufacturer's difference and not a tooth style difference.

Are there any numbers on the saw near the eye, like 610?  This will give the rpm speed, which is needed for tensioning the saw.  You might also find a number like 7-8 indicating eye and rim plate thickness.

The more common 2-1/2 size is thinner than 3 so you will get more sawdust and need more power with a 3 and even more with a 4. But you cannot change size. 

There are three style of #3 teeth I have seen, and all use the same shank...regular (appears that is what you have), long, and (my preference for hardwoods) Standall.

If you are going to try to use the saw, being as old as it is, you really need to send it in to Menominee Saw or similar, as it will need to be cleaned, and retensioned.  Plus some shanks may not come loose easily.  If this is new to you, also put a shank back into the same hole that it came from.  I suggest using some spray like "liquid wrench" to help loosen the shank, if you do have the tool.  In the past itinerant saw Doctor's traveled the country and did saw work right at you mill, but today we send the saw in for repairs.  You might have to build a box to ship it.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

dgdrls

Welcome sawmillpilot

keep us posted on your progress

Dan

beenthere

Instead of Liquid Wrench, use the better Blue Creeper.
Loosening things is what it does the best.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

Quote from: beenthere on December 13, 2015, 11:36:32 AM
Instead of Liquid Wrench, use the better Blue Creeper.
Loosening things is what it does the best.

Agree wholeheartedly!  www.bluecreeper.com   Nothing better.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Magicman

Hello Sawmillpilot and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brian_Rhoad


Sawmillpilot

Well, after a lot of work, I found a shank that's identifiable. 
R. HOE &Co. 4X8. I believe these are the ones that are all discontinued. I hope not!

A goal without a plan is just a dream...

Jeff

As I said, Menominee saw will tell you everything you need to know.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

snowshoveler

I read this myself a couple times since the post was started, wondered too because my Belsaw has a similar tooth and shank.
I never found out who made my blade until tonight.
I removed it from the mill and started cleaning.
I used fine sandpaper and penetrating oil and even a bit of steel wool.
Found the serial number and a stamp that reads CNC...that was a surprise to me.
A further bit of cleaning and I found two prints out further toward the teeth.
Henry Disson and made in Toronto Canada.
Its a 38 inch blade with single circle shanks and bits.
Only thing not found was the hammered speed.
Sawmillpilot, how large is your blade and how many teeth please.
Regards Chris
International T5 dozer
JD M tractor
MF skidloader
Jonsered chainmill
Vintage Belsaw

Jeff

None of the blades I ever used had a speed stamped on them that I knew about.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Sawmillpilot

Mr Snowshoveler,

  My blade in question is a 48" with 28 teeth. As stated above, it's a 4X8 shank with H stamped on the bits. The blade is 5/32" thick.

  My second blade is 44" with 30 teeth, and has 3 8, and also finding 3 9 shanks on it, with S stamped on the bits. 9/64" thick blade. It seems to be more common. 

  I'm really hoping to find enough shanks and teeth to justify sending this blade off to be hammered and get the one tooth straightened that was bent before I acquired it.  I don't want to make a sign out of it if at all possible...

Calling Menominee Saw tomorrow.  Thank you all!

A goal without a plan is just a dream...

Sawmillpilot

Quote from: beenthere on December 13, 2015, 11:36:32 AM
Instead of Liquid Wrench, use the better Blue Creeper.
Loosening things is what it does the best.

  I was introduced to Kroil in 2008 while flying offshore Louisiana for the Gas and Oil industry.  I broke off a rusted in 5/8" grade 5 bolt, ( it was a heck of a cheater bar). Sprayed it down with Kroil, and left it alone for 2 weeks. After getting back, I was able to back the bolt out with a channel lock pliers!  No joke!!!  If Kroil is all the Oil industry uses, it's good enough for my amateur hour... Thank you for the insight though...
A goal without a plan is just a dream...

beenthere

I left Kroil when Blue Creeper came along, and I'd suggest try it.. don't have to wait 2 weeks for it to work, just hours at most.

And the smell of Kroil was the big thing I didn't like about it.. worse than diesel.
Blue Creeper has a very mild and acceptable odor..  just sayin...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

crash

I tend to hoard 50's era International trucks and the old letter series John Deere tractors, mostly made in the 40's. It seems I'm always battling some sort of rusted, crusted, corroded, frozen, stubborn, stinking Dang bolt, stud , plug, or frozen linkage. I had tried about every penetrating oil out there without any sort of tolerable result. The blue tipped wrench was often the only way to get anything done. After reading many favorable comments about Blue Creeper on this forum, I placed an order. The day it showed up I put it to work on a seized coolant drain plug in the head of a Deere "A", fifteen minuets later the plug turned out with ease, I was in shock. Blue creeper quickly earned a permanent place in my shop, and became my favorite "blue tipped" helper.   8)

Jeff

Unless you have used both, there is no place on the Forestry Forum to try and tout anything over bluecreeper. Anyone that has used both knows what is better. Bluecreeper is the official lubricating penetrant of the Forestry Forum because it's the best. PERIOD. My website so I get to decide. ;D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

Quote from: Jeff on December 14, 2015, 06:53:12 PM
As I said, Menominee saw will tell you everything you need to know.

I know the new saws we bought had speed stamped on them.  I'm not sure about older saws, but they have speed, hand, gauge and a serial number.  They're usually stamped on the board side, and down near the eye. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Never had a new saw. Most of the saws I ran were as old as I was or older at the time. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Sawmillpilot

Everyone I called about my saw laughed with me as they told me I have a really pretty table top, or they said they would call me back & never did. My guess is she's gonna hang on the wall, & I will continue my search for such shanks. I have a million questions to ask, since there are no regular operating sawmills around the upper Midwest (Red River Valley).  It's too bad there are not sub folders to break down the search. My guess is most of the questions I have asked are already out there.

This is the greatest forum I have ever joined!!!
A goal without a plan is just a dream...

Jeff

The advanced search has all sorts of ways to break down a search. Use the search button on the menu bar.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

DMcCoy

I have #3 bits I don't need, but no shanks. there are rules about selling which I will follow but without shanks the bits are not going to help you.

snowshoveler

I don't quite understand the numbering on the shanks of these saws.
Mine have a 7 stamped in them and I am using Simonds bits.
They were pretty easy for me to get.
I think bits can be had in different widths.
No idea about the shanks and the differences.
I do know that you can still buy the shanks from Simonds, on their website anyway.
There are single circle and double circle shanks and bits.
Yours (and mine) are single circle.
Regards Chris
International T5 dozer
JD M tractor
MF skidloader
Jonsered chainmill
Vintage Belsaw

Ron Wenrich

If you have something like a B 8 stamped on the shank, the B is the pattern of saw, the 8 is the gauge of the shank.  The pattern is the first number or letter. 

You can get different width of bits.  They go from 9/32-3/8 for the BDF pattern saws.  I always ran the 9/32. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

dgdrls

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 17, 2015, 06:10:51 AM
If you have something like a B 8 stamped on the shank, the B is the pattern of saw, the 8 is the gauge of the shank.  The pattern is the first number or letter. 

You can get different width of bits.  They go from 9/32-3/8 for the BDF pattern saws.  I always ran the 9/32.

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 06, 2003, 02:48:42 PM
Tom

You made me go to the research library, since I couldn't give a reliable answer off the top of my head.   :D

There are 2 types of saw and shank configurations on a circle saw.  One is called the single circle and the other is called a double circle.  It refers how the shank and tooth fit in the saw.  Single circle are designated by numbers and double circle are designated by letters. Single circles are recommended for softwoods and soft hardwoods.  Double circles are recommended for hardwoods.

The smaller numbers are used if you are running smaller logs.  These patterns are 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2, and 4 1/2.  On letters, you have F, B & D.  These are the ones common today. 

On single circles, the shank and tooth fit in one single circle.  On a double circle, the shank fits in one circle, and the second circle holds the tooth behind the shank

Shanks are made from spring steel and they hold the shank and tooth in place.  Summer shanks and summer teeth will form a round gullet.  That works good for many cutting situations.

But, in winter, you need to slow the sawdust down in the gullet so it doesn't spill out over the sides.  A winter shank has a bulge where the shank meets the tooth.  This disrupts the round gullet and causes the sawdust to swirl in the gullet (so I'm told).

Standall bits do the same thing, but they have the bulge in the tooth.  When standalls are coupled with winter shanks, you then have a summer shank/tooth configuration with a much smaller gullet capacity, and defeats the purpose of using either the bits or shanks.

The letters and numbers also refer to the size of the shank.  Jeff uses an F style tooth, and has 50 teeth.  I use a B pattern with 46 teeth.  I have 1 1/2 times the gullet size in the B pattern than the F.  It helps me feed a little faster.  I also run bigger logs, and you need the added gullet capacity.

We had a discussion a few years ago about the term swage and the spelling.  Like Deadheader, I rarely swage, except to repair teeth.  I also hand file, and can put a little lead into the teeth if it is needed. 

We put no set in the circle saws.  Our set is basically the width of the saw tooth.  They are "V" shaped.  That gives the needed clearance to prevent rubbing of the saw.

Lead is where the front of the saw is a little more into the log then the back of the saw.  This prevents the eye from heating up, by the log running past it.  The eye of circle saws are thicker than the rim. 

I bought a disk of several sawmill books over at ebay a couple of months ago.  I believe I paid $6.  Its called the Sawmill Handbook Collection and contains Circular Sawmills & Their Efficient Operation; Uses for Sawdust, Shavings and Waste Chips; Electic Moisture Meters for Wood; Dry Kiln Operator's Manual; Drying Hardwood Lumber; and Air Drying of Lumber.  These are all older USFS Research Books.  Very worthwhile and useful for the money invested.

Ron,  I hope you don't mind me carrying over a quote by you  from February 06, 2003, 02:48:42 pm ยป  It certainly is an informative one

Dan

snowshoveler

I was having a bit of trouble sawing the last few logs I was at in the mill.
I tried a few different things but no change.
I did like the books say and I replaced the bits...no more problems.
Saws straight and fast.
I keep forgetting that the folks that wrote the books and manuals have sawn a bit more than me and might just know what the are talking about.
Regards Chris
International T5 dozer
JD M tractor
MF skidloader
Jonsered chainmill
Vintage Belsaw

sparky

Sawmillpilot,
If you are still looking for information, or parts, I suggest you call the Rice Blacksmith Shop in Rice, MN. They are the only saw shop that I know about in our area. You can reach them at (320) 393-2169. They carry a lot of parts and I have no complaint about there work, or cost, when they have hammered blades for me. Someone mentioned a Disston blade in this post and they are no longer supported. Rice has some inventory of Disston components. I operate a circular mill at the Dalton, MN steam show. Where in ND are you located?

Sparky
I'tnl 2050 with Prentrice 110, Custom built 48" left-hand circular and 52" Bellsaw right-hand circular mills, Jonsered 2171, Stihl 084, and too many other chainsaws. John Deere 3020 and Oliver 1800 with FELs. 20" 4-sided planer and misc.

Thank You Sponsors!