Passepartout!! who has one?

John Mc · March 16, 2016, 12:13:34 PM

I'm not surprised at where you know him from a scrapyard. Jerry (2islandboy) is a hardcore scrounger. Whenever he visits us here in VT, he has to make a tour of the area scrapyards to see what they've got.

shinnlinger · March 20, 2016, 09:46:57 PM

Ours had a snowmobile centrifugal clutch. I don't think it would hold up to heavy hauling but that was along time ago... We did use it to haul a keg of beer up a mountain once though. Threw a track off at the top but it got the job done...

PPT_Man · March 22, 2016, 05:44:51 PM

Well, you guys - great detectives that you are - have figured us out. Jerry and I are good friends. Went to college together - same school, same major, same year. Neither has any recollection of the other from then, but we now live within sight of each other. A real coincidence.

My PPT has a Sachs SA 340 engine on it with a Tillotson HD17A carburetor. It is currently dead. Next step is to haul it home and try (another) carburetor rebuild. I think the flow control valve is miss-adjusted. Does anybody have any experience with these things?

One question is that the Sachs Manual says the engine is designed for the HD 13A and I have an HD 17A. Anyone have any opinions on how this should work? Do I really need to chase down an HD 17A.

When I first got the machine, it did not run at all. I took it to a guy who fixed it and it ran fine for quite a while. Then started running rough. When through a total of about 3 - 5 gallons of gas before it quit. I replaced the plug and it ran file for a while - maybe a gallon or two then the same thing happened. Replaced the plug this morning and again it ran fine and then quit after maybe 10 minutes of operation.

The reason I want to try rebuilding the carb is that gasoline drips out of the air intake after choking to start. Makes me think the float control valve needs to be adjusted. I figure it is easy enough for ME to try the rebuild - easier than hauling it to someone. After that, I will do the hauling. Who knows of experts on this stuff?

John Mc · March 22, 2016, 05:55:12 PM

Jerry is quite the tinkerer, as you probably have found out by now. If he can't figure it out, he probably knows someone who can.

Have you considered replacing the engine altogether I thought I read somewhere n my brief research that people had problems with some of the early Sachs engines in these things. I forget what was mentioned for engines used in other models, but I think one of them was a Rotax? (Unfortunately, I'll probably never find that excellent history of Passepartouts that I was reading earlier).

loggah · March 23, 2016, 05:02:41 PM

I talked with some of my friends who used to have Rupp snowmobiles back in the 70,s with 340 sach motors .They said they had a bunch of trouble with them vapor locking,and that was in the winter !!! The Passepartout used a 399 CCW,canadian curtis wright engine also, the moto-ski snowmobiles used them also. I'm thinking one of those CCW engines may be easy to find to replace the Sach. Don

sprucebunny · March 23, 2016, 05:29:31 PM

Those symptoms on a regular car/truck engine I would look for a leaking and gas soaked carb float.

Just my guess

I've had my hands on a few PPT but have never driven one.

snowstorm · March 24, 2016, 06:51:39 AM

Quote from: PPT_Man on March 22, 2016, 05:44:51 PM
Well, you guys - great detectives that you are - have figured us out. Jerry and I are good friends. Went to college together - same school, same major, same year. Neither has any recollection of the other from then, but we now live within sight of each other. A real coincidence.

My PPT has a Sachs SA 340 engine on it with a Tillotson HD17A carburetor. It is currently dead. Next step is to haul it home and try (another) carburetor rebuild. I think the flow control valve is miss-adjusted. Does anybody have any experience with these things?

One question is that the Sachs Manual says the engine is designed for the HD 13A and I have an HD 17A. Anyone have any opinions on how this should work? Do I really need to chase down an HD 17A.

When I first got the machine, it did not run at all. I took it to a guy who fixed it and it ran fine for quite a while. Then started running rough. When through a total of about 3 - 5 gallons of gas before it quit. I replaced the plug and it ran file for a while - maybe a gallon or two then the same thing happened. Replaced the plug this morning and again it ran fine and then quit after maybe 10 minutes of operation.

The reason I want to try rebuilding the carb is that gasoline drips out of the air intake after choking to start. Makes me think the float control valve needs to be adjusted. I figure it is easy enough for ME to try the rebuild - easier than hauling it to someone. After that, I will do the hauling. Who knows of experts on this stuff?

there is no float in a tilloson carb. there a lever attached to the needle that should be horizontal with the carb body. a rebuild kit should help. the high and low speed adjustment on the carb should be at least 1 turn out. fuel is also a coolant in a 2 stroke. there will be some spit back from the carb when running thats normal with a piston port 2 stroke. it is a 40 year old motor. i can remember moto ski using them in 1971. a big upgrade would be to replace the motor with a more modern one. my choice would be a polaris fan cooled motor. and clutch. i am guessing your machine has a salbursy clutch??if so they are pretty crude compared to newer stuff. a newer motor along with the primary and secondary clutch would completely change it for the better

John Mc · March 24, 2016, 08:54:35 AM

IF the PPTs use the variable ratio Salisbury clutches (I always thought of them more as a torque converter), most of these were speed sensitive - they changed the drive ratio depending on the RPMs of the engine. It was a decent way to allow a greater range of speeds on the machine, and allow for some torque while the engine was at low RPMs (where gas engines suffer in the torque department). There were two problems with these: 1) the clutch's grip on the belt was proportional to engine RPM, and they would slip at lower speeds, and 2) when pulling a heavy load, you'd really like the low-gear drive ratio that you get at low RPMs, but you'd also like the engine running at higher RPMs, so you have higher engine torque available AND the "low gear" from the drive ratio of the clutch. (This often was not so big a deal for a recreational snow mobile, which don't tend to tow heavy loads).

There are alternatives available that are drop in replacements that are Torque Sensing. I replaced the speed sensing Salisbury clutch on my Coot with a torque sensing clutch. It was night and day. I can see the belt ratio change as I speed up, but then change back again as I start up hill, while the engine keeps up it's higher RPMs. I almost don't need the low gear in the transmission anymore. On the heavier loads, it has changed me from "I can probably pull that" to "sure, no problem". (Of course, heavy for a Coot is a relative term, and the brake is a little wimpy thing, so stopping that load on a downhill slope can be an adventure.)

I highly recommend looking in to the torque sensing clutches if you need to pull loads and have an old speed sensing Salisbury clutch that you need to replace. I got mine from Quality Drive Systems

Of course, all this is a moot point if PPTs don't use this type of drive system.

PPT_Man · March 24, 2016, 04:42:11 PM

Thanks for the suggestions from the last 4 postings. I am aware of the lever that my Tillotson Carb has instead of a float. In fact, adjusting that slightly is first on my list of things to try. Carburetor has been totally cleaned and rebuilt several times over the last 6 months - several time by me and once by a guy down the road who actually knows what he is doing.

Second on my list of things to try is to haul the machine back to him to see if he has any other good ideas. The machine ran very well for several hours after the first time he fixed it.

I hate to replace the Sachs sa340 before I am sure that I have to, since it initially ran very well. It has a very nice electric start system. Do any of you know any Central NH "old timers" (in other words, probably guys about my age) who have experience with the Sachs engines?

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the Tillotson HD 17A carb that I have on my Sachs is an OK replacement for the Tillotson HD 13A carb that was supposed to have come with the machine.

I also appreciate the idea about replacing the Transmission / Clutch system. I definitely have the old style and like the man says, it works great on level ground but opposite of the way I want it to when I am going over a steep obstacle. But there is no point in replacing the Transmission / Clutch system until I get engine performing reliably.

By the way, the PPT is AWESOME for gathering maple sap - at least for my 25 taps. It get me right next to the trees and it has lots of payload capacity. I have no trouble at all rigging it to carry 35 gallons of sap and it hauls it up the hill with no trouble. Also it moves relatively fast from my home to the sugarbush since the tracks smooth out the roughness in what I use for a road.

John Mc · March 24, 2016, 05:09:46 PM

I'm the last person to ask about engine repairs, but I think the Sachs engine was used in some snowmobiles from the same era. You might try asking at some of the snowmobile shops (there is an ATV/snowmobile/motorcycle place near me with a service guy who has a real interest in the older models - not that that does you much good)

I agree with waiting on the transmission. I just mentioned it in case yours was on it's last legs. You can probably get the same thing as original, but there is no reason to. If you do need to do it, let me know and I'll dig up the contact info for the guy I spoke at QDS. He is very knowledgable about them.

snowstorm · March 24, 2016, 07:31:58 PM

the old hd carbs that skidoo used had a screw on fuel filter instead of the plastic cover where the fuel line goes. my guess would be why the different #. i had several sleds with hr and hd carbs that was a long time ago. i also would assume that motor has points. point gap also controls timing. so you set the timing using a ohm meter to tell you when the points break that needs to line up with the timing marks. has anyone checked compression ? crank seals? sometimes a shredded drive belt would take out the seal. dose this machine have reverse?? if not with a modern motor you could have electronic reverse. push the button and the motor runs backwards. would also need the drive clutch and roller driven

r.man · March 25, 2016, 09:38:35 PM

I have owned lots of old Ski doos and some had an inline filter with an adapter plate at the bottom of the carb. You could choose which type to put on if you had an adapter around. I was happy when they switched to Mikuni carbs from the Tillotson. Not much regular maintenance on a Mikuni.

snowstorm · March 26, 2016, 07:48:26 AM

Quote from: r.man on March 25, 2016, 09:38:35 PM
I have owned lots of old Ski doos and some had an inline filter with an adapter plate at the bottom of the carb. You could choose which type to put on if you had an adapter around. I was happy when they switched to Mikuni carbs from the Tillotson. Not much regular maintenance on a Mikuni.

a mikuni is 50 years ahead of a tillotson. a lot of motors burned down with tillotson carbs and the owner that like to lean them out a little to much

2islandboy · March 27, 2016, 07:58:30 AM

Any suggestions on a Mikuni for a PPT Sachs, SA340 ?

John Mc · March 27, 2016, 02:36:17 PM

Quote from: 2islandboy on March 27, 2016, 07:58:30 AM
Any suggestions on a Mikuni for a PPT Sachs, SA340 ?

Finding one of those adapter plates might be handy as well.

snowstorm · March 27, 2016, 07:48:48 PM

Quote from: 2islandboy on March 27, 2016, 07:58:30 AM
Any suggestions on a Mikuni for a PPT Sachs, SA340 ?

a mikuni is a much better carb. thats why everyone uses them. but did sachs ever use one? finding the carb mount might not be that hard. if they did and you could get the specs all would be easy. the older mics used round slides now thats out of style and flatslide is in. you would need to know the size 32 or 34mm should be real close. then what cut away in the slide and the needle size clip position, piolt jet main jet. a new throttle cable choke cable. its not really a choke its an enrichner. thats why i say buy a newer motor. a used motor out of a sled 4 to 500 maybe...maybe less

John Mc · March 27, 2016, 08:05:27 PM

I've heard of some PPTs using a Kohler engine. Not sure if this was from the factory or a conversion someone did. A PPT history I read made reference to a 4 cycle engine in the later models.

Hard to tell for sure from the videos, but the Kohler sure seemed quieter than the other options (or at least the pitch of the sound was much less annoying).