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Shed.... Shiplap, is it posssible? If not Board & Batten vs Claps?

Started by wfcjr, November 29, 2015, 07:35:01 PM

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wfcjr

Will have some logging done this winter.  Going to keep some of the timber to have it milled up for an equipment shed.

Two questions....
Our existing barn and attachment shed were made with lumber from the lumber yard.  Siding is pine shiplap that was subsequently painted barn red & white for trim.  Even though we plan to use rough sawn from our logging operations, would like to keep with the shiplap siding.  To date I have not been able to find any planer or piece of processing equipment that will turn rough sawn into shiplap.  Does anyone know of any good methods to convert rough sawn to shiplap?

If it is not possible or practical to mill shiplap from rough sawn, then we will look at either board & batten or clapboards.   Will likely sticker the wood for a few months.  So it will not be entirely green, nor will it be dry either.  Understand the theory behind the board & batten approach in that any shrinking as the wood dries will be perpendicular to the long axis, rather than along the long axis and the battens will cover any additional shrinkage.  If we decide to go with clapboards, I am assuming that it would be OK to put up the claps, only nailing on one side, (along the top) and that if we are conservative with the reveal, that any shrinkage in the claps will be far less than the overlap portion.

So... is is possible to mill shiplap from roughsawn?
If not, is there any advantage to board & batten vs clapboards?

Thanks for any insights...

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: wfcjr on November 29, 2015, 07:35:01 PM
<<snip>>
So... is is possible to mill shiplap from roughsawn?

Yes, I would use a shaper table or a router and remove half the thickness to whatever overlap you want.  Could also use a dado blade on a table saw.

Quote from: wfcjr on November 29, 2015, 07:35:01 PM
If not, is there any advantage to board & batten vs clapboards?

Thanks for any insights...

I'd say the advantage of board & batten is that you don't have to machine it!  Clapboards you really need to have a taper on the boards.  You can do that by alternately lifting one side of your cant a little, slice a board, lay flat, slice a board, lift same side again, etc.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Dave Shepard

A jointer with a grooved outfeed table will do it pretty quick.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

brendonv

I did a garage, and my dormer on the house with rough sawn and ship lap. I used a router at first, then a dato blade on a table saw. Because we used random width, setting up a system that helps push the piece along the table saw fence wasnt an option. I did it all with body weight, my back and sides hurt for days. Constant same motions just killed my body. I also killed a router at first too. Hahahhaha. Ill never do shiplap like that again, and without spending money on equipment it was my only option.

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wfcjr

Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 29, 2015, 08:06:32 PM

I'd say the advantage of board & batten is that you don't have to machine it!  Clapboards you really need to have a taper on the boards.  You can do that by alternately lifting one side of your cant a little, slice a board, lay flat, slice a board, lift same side again, etc.

Two other questions...

First on the shiplap, if we assume an 8" board or 10" board, how much of a rabbet is required on each end and how much shrinkage should one expect if the boards are put up green or after a month or two of stickering/seasoning outside but under cover?
Interesting question on sawing & processing time....

Second, on the processing time for the options...

Yes, the board & batten only get processed once for the main vertical boards.  But you still have to saw all the battens.

Understand that clapboards require a taper.  I would assume that one needs a Wood-Mizer type shingle/siding table or some other fixturing to permit an angled cut. While the claps need special processing to get the taper, you don't have to saw all the battens.   On the other hand, with clapboards, given the reveal, one likely needs more board feet per outside surface area than with board & batten.

So shiplap.... yes it does need secondary processing, but once again, no need to saw or mill battens.
Also, probably have a higher efficiency ratio of board feet to surface area, than you get with clapboards.

So I am wondering if it is a wash on the work involved or time to saw/mill between all options of board & batten, clapboards or shiplap.

Thoughts?

wfcjr

Should I have posted this thread to the "Sawmills and Milling" forum vs the "Drying and Processing" forum?

Dave Shepard

I've done 1" x8" clapboards, no taper. Works great, no machining.

I guess this is the only pic I have loaded of it.


 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

DMcCoy

Thanks for that picture.  I have always wondered why the taper?  Never made sense to me as required.  I always figured it started out as a way to economize on materials, labor, and shipping.  First guy who did it could undercut the price of the competition.

edit: same goes for shingles.

Ljohnsaw

I wouldn't say that battens require "extra" milling.  They can be the off-cuts/trim when sizing your main boards.  All comes down to planning.  The reason for the taper on clap boards is probably two-fold.  Conserve materials and to keep the wall a little more "flat".  As far as overlap on shiplap - commercially, they are about 1/2" rabbits.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

wfcjr

Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 30, 2015, 11:04:53 AM
I wouldn't say that battens require "extra" milling.  They can be the off-cuts/trim when sizing your main boards.  All comes down to planning.  The reason for the taper on clap boards is probably two-fold.  Conserve materials and to keep the wall a little more "flat".  As far as overlap on shiplap - commercially, they are about 1/2" rabbits.

Understand the rabbet size on commercially available and kiln dried shiplap.

Wondering about rabbet size on lumber that is either green or has a modest amount of dry time, outside & stickered.  How much rabbet to ensure that there is still some overlap after shrinkage?  Is 1/2" adequate or will it need more?

beenthere

To be a bit more safe, you likely will need more than 1/2".

But how much more is hard to say. If all the siding boards would dry straight, then even 1/2" might be enough.
But they will not all dry straight. Some will have crook and that overlap will disappear... then the underlayment will show or some "see through cracks" will show.
Then just a matter of how annoying might that be.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

BradMarks

I've done both B&B and shiplap. Although the shiplap(tapered) was over 20 years ago, I seem to recall the overlap beiing more than 1/2", if for no other reason than enough wood to hold/hide the siding nail.  I can check at lunch, If I remember ;D

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: BradMarks on November 30, 2015, 11:58:51 AM
I've done both B&B and shiplap. Although the shiplap(tapered) was over 20 years ago, I seem to recall the overlap beiing more than 1/2", if for no other reason than enough wood to hold/hide the siding nail.  I can check at lunch, If I remember ;D

I just want to be clear in my own mind.  Out here, shiplap is uniform thickness boards with a rabbit on each edge, opposite sides.  Clapboard has a tapper in its thickness across the width of the board.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

beenthere

We usually refer to this "clapboard" siding as bevel siding. Maybe one in the same?
Not sure what BradMarks shiplap (tapered) is. ??

On bevel siding, the holding nail isn't hidden, and isn't driven through the thin edge of the siding board just below it so it is allowed room to float with shrinkage and swelling.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

BradMarks

Me and my terms!  Beveled siding I guess is clapboard, I've always referred to it just as beveled siding. So shiplap in my visual would be totally flat up against the outside wall. And no offense to anyone but I would be totally unhappy if someone put up beveled siding and showed nails - if I were paying for it! Just isn't done that way - at least in my experience. My only disclaimer would be that most beveled siding is primed, and then painted. Rough out (no paint) could allow for shrinkage and swelling and maybe then nail placement is different.

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Dave Shepard

It's always nailed up with a nail visible that I've seen. We used one nail on the 1x8 non-beveled clapboards, about 2" up so it didn't hit the board underneath.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The reason that it was beveled is that originally it was cut 100% quartersawn, so when looking at the end grain, each piece is like a thin slice of a pie.  When sawing, this was easy to do by just spinning the quartered log slightly and then sawing another piece.  Hard to say in words, but very obvious if a log is first quartered and then quarter sawn...I will look for a picture, or maybe someone else has one.  So, by doing it this way, there was not as much waste.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

jwilly3879

I have seen ship lap put up to resemble clapboard siding. The rabbet overlaps the full thickness on the lower board ( the full thickness of the upper board rests on the rabbet of the lower board) and it looks just like beveled and has a drip edge.

wfcjr

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 01, 2015, 12:41:31 AM
The reason that it was beveled is that originally it was cut 100% quartersawn, so when looking at the end grain, each piece is like a thin slice of a pie.  When sawing, this was easy to do by just spinning the quartered log slightly and then sawing another piece.  Hard to say in words, but very obvious if a log is first quartered and then quarter sawn...I will look for a picture, or maybe someone else has one.  So, by doing it this way, there was not as much waste.

Makes a lot of sense... least wasteful way to quartersaw.

But how would one go about doing this on a modern, portable bandsaw?   

Seems like it would be tough to hold the quarter log properly and then turn it precisely for each cut.  All the pics & videos that I have seen showing quartersawn or quartersawing on a band mill, are a sort of modified quartersaw vs. a true radial cut.

Am guessing that is has to do with the limitations on holding a log relative to a horizontal band saw.

Dave Shepard

What Gene is talking about is a dedicated machine that holds the log between centers and has a circular saw. There is at least one on YouTube.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

beenthere

An article in Old House Journal with pictures. Someone has posted a pic on the FF before. Don't remember who.
bevel siding production link

See FF thread post #21 by Peter Drouin for a demo at a field event.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,79020.20.html
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

wfcjr

Quote from: beenthere on December 01, 2015, 12:45:40 PM
An article in Old House Journal with pictures. Someone has posted a pic on the FF before. Don't remember who.
bevel siding production link

See FF thread post #21 by Peter Drouin for a demo at a field event.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,79020.20.html

Anyone have any idea who the chap is that owns & runs that clapboard mill in the Peter Druin thread referenced above?

Bruno of NH

I put up truck loads of 8 inch shiplap every summer for a on going contract with a condo assc .
The kiln dryed stuff shrinks a lot .
With that said I milled some 1 inch pine last summer sold it to a friend and shiplap it for him he was very happy . Air dried 6 months .
You can saw your logs into board then bring it to some one to shiplap it for you .
Pm me when your ready I can give you some names .
Jim/Bruno
I use screws to hang the shiplap it works well for me.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

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