Fees to charge

[Drake the sawyer]

How do I charge a customer that hires me to come mill their logs? Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thank you

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Either hourly or by the Board Foot.

There is a lot more things to consider also. I saw stationary but some of the other guys saw portable and will be giving you a more indepth answer. Good Luck.

[beenthere]

Drake
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

How experienced at sawing are you?   

If not very experienced, might not be fair to your customer to charge by the hour.

On the other hand, if the customer wants to be involved and direct your sawing on nearly every cut, and discuss what just happened, and what he wants on the next cut... then charge by the hour.

If you don't want to have the pressure of sawing as fast as you can, then charge by the board foot. As Poston said, many things to consider... tell us more about your experiences sawing for others..  likely many on here with similar experience will give you some great pointers.

[Drake the sawyer]

Yes sorry I did not go further into detail. I was copying Tom the Sawyer's prices but added a nickel or two to his prices. I had a guy that has a pecan log
And with my scriber stick said I should get 60 BDFT of lumber. And just a rough est I would get $39. Not enough in my opinion.

[Drake the sawyer]

Thanks again!!

[logs2lumber]

Yeah that wouldnt be alot to go and setup for one log. Or you could give a set price factor in some fuel setup time say you charge 80.00 to come cut it. Just depends also on how far if you hit any nails etc.

For me jobs like that are hourly rates

[Drake the sawyer]

Board Feet Milling Fee's
1/4 @ 1.75 p/bf
2/4 @ .1.00 p/bf
3/4 @ .75 p/bf
4/4  (1"thick) @ .65 p/bf
5/4 @ .60 p/bf
6/4 @ .50 p/bf
7/4 @ .475 p/bf
8/4 @ .450 p/bf
9/4 @ .425 p/bf
10/4 and thicker @ .40 p/bf

On Site Setup Fee - $50 + $2.00 plus one-way mile Mileage Fee

Hourly Milling Fee $75

Short logs (less than 6') and small diameter logs (less than 10" at the small end), require extra time to load, turn and clamp - yielding relatively few board feet for the time involved.  Those logs may be charged by the hour rather than by the board foot.  Hourly rates may also be applied to specialty milling projects like mantles, beams, cookies, and re-sawing.  When I have to stop and move each board productivity goes down considerably and the hourly rate will apply.                                                     It is the client's responsibility to provide someone to remove lumber from the mill. Note:  freshly milled lumber can be quite heavy.  If you plan to mill lumber thicker than 1 1/2" (6/4) you'll probably need an additional helper.    An 8/4x23"x8' walnut plank will weigh about 150 pounds - some species are even heavier.

Site and/or log prep fee $50 per hour

These are the fees that I am charging at the moment. Still think I might need to modify. Thanks!!

[Chuck White]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Drake!

I don't have a "set-up" fee, but I do have a 1,000 board foot minimum charge.

In other words if I do the sawjob and only end up with 750 board feet, the customer still gets charged for the 1,000 bf.

You'll need to let the customer know about this "up front"!

[terrifictimbersllc]

A smaller job at a distance is one of the issues with portable sawing.   You will have to work it out for yourself.  I have a minimum number of hours depending on distance, goes from 2 to 8 hr minimum. Also a mileage charge.  Let the customer decide whether it's worth it to him. I've driven 100 miles each way before, to make 2 cuts, or to resaw 3 beams, with an 8 hr minimum charge plus mileage, and the customer was happy.  In one case a renovation crew of 6 or so were all waiting for the cuts I made, it was a bargain for them to be able to keep going on their job.  I probably could have charged twice as much.

BUT...you don't have to be completely rigid, and you can offer to stop in on the way back from another job, with very little notice (at your convenience) when that opportunity comes, and charging much less.  ALSO.... when you're starting out you might want to consider taking jobs for less, at the beginning.

[WV Sawmiller]

    You can click on icon in my profile below and get to my site to see my fee set up. I am currently sawing for a customer where I am doing the stacking. He agreed to pay extra for this - all other customers had me a stacker. I made mistake of starting stickering as stacking. Customer does not have to touch the lumber again to air dry it. It is easy for him but has been costing me too much time. I'll finish this job as agreed but next time If I stack I my rate will be for flat stacking and another higher rate if I have to sticker.

    I have used both bf and hourly rates. Hard part is mixed logs where you have some decent logs and some small ones. If you have the customer separate them into piles like that he may decide not to have the smaller stuff cut - or you may chase him off (which may not always be a bad thing). At least he has a better understanding that it costs more to cut some logs than others.

[Outer Rondacker]

Board Feet Milling Fee's
1/4 @ 1.75 p/bf
2/4 @ .1.00 p/bf
3/4 @ .75 p/bf
4/4  (1"thick) @ .65 p/bf
5/4 @ .60 p/bf
6/4 @ .50 p/bf
7/4 @ .475 p/bf
8/4 @ .450 p/bf
9/4 @ .425 p/bf
10/4 and thicker @ .40 p/bf

On Site Setup Fee - $50 + $2.00 plus one-way mile Mileage Fee

Hourly Milling Fee $75

Short logs (less than 6') and small diameter logs (less than 10" at the small end), require extra time to load, turn and clamp - yielding relatively few board feet for the time involved.  Those logs may be charged by the hour rather than by the board foot.  Hourly rates may also be applied to specialty milling projects like mantles, beams, cookies, and re-sawing.  When I have to stop and move each board productivity goes down considerably and the hourly rate will apply.                                                     It is the client's responsibility to provide someone to remove lumber from the mill. Note:  freshly milled lumber can be quite heavy.  If you plan to mill lumber thicker than 1 1/2" (6/4) you'll probably need an additional helper.    An 8/4x23"x8' walnut plank will weigh about 150 pounds - some species are even heavier.

Site and/or log prep fee $50 per hour

These are the fees that I am charging at the moment. Still think I might need to modify. Thanks!!

Drake I do not mean to be rude but I will tell you this. At this price set up in my area your mill would grow old and rust up, gas would turn, and tires would dry rot if this is what you charged.
With that said I do like the fact that you charge less per BF as the thickness get s larger since I feel the log owner gets ripped on large timbers if charged a flat rate PBF.
On a final note. If you make the customer happy they will be back and tell their friends. If you make them unhappy they will tell everyone until they are not longer *pithed. Good luck you will figure it out. 

[Drake the sawyer]

The fees that I charge I copied from Tom the Sawyer. He has been doing this for a long time. He's on here also. What fees do you charge if Tom the Sawyers fees are to high?

[Tom the Sawyer]

Drake,

Just for clarification, in your post you said you added a "nickel or two" to my prices but, at 4/4 you are 30% higher (.15), which is my most common thickness milled. 

I encourage everyone to track their costs in detail so that you know what it costs you to provide your services.  It makes no sense (cents?) to try to match competition on prices alone.  It isn't just an equipment question (production from a basic manual vs. a super hydraulic) but also other costs such as rent, utilities, equipment maintenance and replacement, taxes, insurance, advertising, employee costs, support equipment, USDOT compliance, etc.  If your costs are exactly the same (pretty much impossible), then it comes down to how much your time is worth.  I do offer a set of discounts too ( and some 'unpublished' freebies ).

As for that pecan log.  If it was a request for a mobile job I would first encourage them to find a way to bring it to me.  If not, and they understand the costs, it would be $40 Travel (if 20 miles away), $50 Setup, $30 Milling, $6 Sales Tax = $126.  If that's not worth 2.5 hours of your time then pass on the job.  Brought to me, it would be about 20 minutes and cost them about $32.  No, it ain't much but the next time, when they get a couple of logs, they'll know where to go.

There is also some consideration as to the area you are in, and the species.  In some areas, charging $100 to mill 200 board feet of pine might seem high.  In my area, getting 200 board feet of walnut milled for $100 is a pretty good deal.

[sandsawmill14]

i charge $250 per mbdft period if its less than 4/4 it is counted as 4/4 other than that it is billed as what it is doesnt matter if its 2x4 or 12x12. i have a 1000 bd ft minimum if portable other than that it is by the bdft. 
a tree only has so much value in it. if you are not careful you saw bill will be more than the finished lumber cost just to go buy it. the only way to make money custom sawing is to saw good lumber fast  if its not good you wont have any work if its not fast you wont have any money ;)

[drobertson]

With every region, there are fluctuations in the pricing.  As mentioned you have time in getting there, then the sawing, handling at times, and the usual maintenance.  I charge by the bd/ft, and never have set a minimum, but rather discussed, or viewed what was to be sawn.  For one log, I would make an effort to encourage him to bring the log to you.  Whether its' 60bd/ft or 250,  one log is not much to move a mill for.,  Now on the other hand, I did move in for one log, a big one, but it was on the way out from the previous job, on the same country road, so, that was no big deal, but the only time I've done a single on the road.   

[red]

With some never ending questions on the phone you ask for their address.  Tell them you are sending them the $100 the phone call already cost you . 

[Drake the sawyer]

Thanks Tom for ALL the help you have told me. I'm sure I'd like to talk to you again.

[Kipper]

FWIW, I charge the customer a flat rate based on the international log scale. This works out for them in a manner that they know what the cost will be prior to sawing (unless we hit nail or other foreign objects). Also it works out for me in the case that their log doesn't yield usable lumber due to defects not able to be seen until sawn.

[Magicman]

All of those different sawing rates would complicate me out of the sawing business.  I would hate to have to explain all of that to a new potential customer over the telephone.   smiley_dizzy 

I have one flat bf sawing rate and one hourly rate fee.  Sometimes you make a bit more, sometimes less, but it all works out.

[bkaimwood]

All of those different sawing rates would complicate me out of the sawing business.  I would hate to have to explain all of that to a new potential customer over the telephone.   smiley_dizzy 

I have one flat bf sawing rate and one hourly rate fee.  Sometimes you make a bit more, sometimes less, but it all works out.

The beauty of simplicity...

[4x4American]

Thing is, Tom has been sawing for a long time and has a broad customer base.  I would say that figuring out what it costs you to turn on the lights, so to speak, should be your first step in figuring out what to charge. 

[Tom the Sawyer]

Now hold on there just a minute...  That's two comments about me sawing for "a long time".  This forum is loaded with sawyers with much more experience than I have.  I've only had my mill for 6 years but I had been hiring milling services for 25 years before that.  My experiences, both good and bad, with those other operations certainly influenced how I operate my business.  My previous career also implemented cost/benefit and time analysis studies so that carried into how I do things.

You have to find a pricing method that works for you and your situation.  Straight hourly, straight board footage, a combination or bidding the job, all have their proponents.  Variable rates like hardwood/softwood or by other factors may work for others.  Most of my jobs only involve 1-3 rates so its not confusing IMO.  My last one was all 5/4 and 14/4, they're certainly two different styles of work. 

I count the tick marks on the tally sheet, enter the info into my tablet and it calculates the board footage, and the milling fees, instantly.  Two clicks and I know the milling fee for the entire job.  The tablet makes it easier, and much more accurate, but when I started I did it by hand.  I don't mean to opine that it is the best method for anyone but me... it works very well for me.

[YellowHammer]

I saw stationary, but most of my charge is flat rate board foot.  Assuming I keep my lumber quality up to snuff, then the faster and more efficient I am, the more money I can make.  As I upgrade my equipment and process, I gain a benefit. 

I charge hourly on the types of jobs I know will slow me down, such as short logs or quarter sawing.  My pet peeve is when people bring me logs that still have pegs of branches sticking out like a porcupine.  For that I give them the choice to fire up their chainsaw to retrim the logs or I will charge $75 per hour to fire up mine.  I can't make money running a sawmill if I'm running a chainsaw.   ;D

[terrifictimbersllc]

I saw stationary, but most of my charge is flat rate board foot.  Assuming I keep my lumber quality up to snuff, then the faster and more efficient I am, the more money I can make.  As I upgrade my equipment and process, I gain a benefit. 

I charge hourly on the types of jobs I know will slow me down, such as short logs or quarter sawing.  My pet peeve is when people bring me logs that still have pegs of branches sticking out like a porcupine.  For that I give them the choice to fire up their chainsaw to retrim the logs or I will charge $75 per hour to fire up mine.  I can't make money running a sawmill if I'm running a chainsaw.   ;D

No kidding, even at $70/hr, I think I can lose money chain sawing, especially with a long bar.  Need to pass some chain sharpening cost to the customer.

[Chuck White]

Every once in a while I'll tell a customer that he needs to take a step closer to the log before he puts it on the stack!   :-\

[Drake the sawyer]

For those that have a portable sawmill, what do you charge per BDFT. If the have a load of logs for me to mill into lumber

[Arkyrick]

I lean towards Magic Mans method I charge $40. per hr. for any amount of logs cut, I do have a 1 hr. minimum. Also my sawmill is stationary to my dismay, I miss out on a lot of portable business.
Larger Mills in my area send work my way because they don't like to mess with smaller jobs. Most folks around here are poorer than a church mouse and come to me. I'm just an old 1 man operation and I'm satisfied with what I make.
Arkyrick

[WV Sawmiller]

Drake,

    I charge $.30/bf if they stack and $.35/bf if I have to stack. Need to re-think my stacking rate. Finished a job last week where I stacked and stickered for $.35. Was not enough. Small logs and 1" boards. Finished as agreed but next time if I sticker will be extra charge as really slowed me down. Bad part was it was 45 miles away. Took me 9 days to finish that job. Next time if small short logs like that may drop back to my hourly rate ($60/hr).

    Some jobs are just not going to be big money jobs but you have to finish what you start as promised or your credibility is shot. Much of this work is word of mouth and you can't afford a bad rep.

[Chuck White]

For those that have a portable sawmill, what do you charge per BDFT. If the have a load of logs for me to mill into lumber

You'll find that the fee for sawing is sometimes significantly different from one region to another.

For instance I've seen fees posted here on the forum that range from $150.00-$320.00 per thousand board feet, so $.15-.32 per bf.

[ncsawyer]

i charge $250 per mbdft period if its less than 4/4 it is counted as 4/4 other than that it is billed as what it is doesnt matter if its 2x4 or 12x12. i have a 1000 bd ft minimum if portable other than that it is by the bdft. 
a tree only has so much value in it. if you are not careful you saw bill will be more than the finished lumber cost just to go buy it. the only way to make money custom sawing is to saw good lumber fast  if its not good you wont have any work if its not fast you wont have any money ;)

I have a very similar fee structure.  I charge $250/thousand or $65 per hour with a 1,000bdft min.  I have some folks tell me that they think $250/bdft is too low, but with a good set up, it is very profitable for me and advantageous for the customer.  With good logs and a good set up $250/bdft equals about $100 per hour. 

In my area, I agree that you can't charge more for sawing pine framing than the customer can go buy it for.  In order to maintain a profitable sawing relationship, both you and the customer need to benefit from the relationship.   

[edkemper]

First, keep in mind I am retired and have no desire to go into business again. Most of you have a profit need. I personally bought my mill to mill lumber for my own log house build. At 64, I'm uninterested in starting another business. I hope I am permanently retired, God willing. I've fired up my mill for a couple of people that have stopped by and needed a small amount of work. Since I'm just learning to mill, I've done three small "jobs" for donations to the disabled vets here in town.

I've always found that money between neighbors frequently leads to problems. My property is 45 miles out of town where I have a house until I build. Only about 6 neighbors in a couple mile radius.

On the other hand, my immediate neighbor (at my property) is a logger. A man who has become a fast friend. He also wants to add a porch, a barn and build a small home on his property for his son. He has plenty of heavy equipment, trucks and a wealth of practical knowledge.

Plus there always seems to be a few left over logs on his jobs (at least a trailer load). Plus he'll be on the lookout for strange and special logs to bring home or have me pick up. Did I mention how nice it is to be able to go to sight, have logs loaded on my trailer and just driving home and parking. Then when my neighbor gets home, he comes over with his self loader and unloads my trailer.

Over the last couple of years, we've settled into me taking care of his lumber needs and him keeping my small but enlarging log deck stocked. I'm talking about a lot more stock than is needed for his needs. Plus the last cuts were for 4"x18"x16'6" for his lowboy trailer bed. So I get to cut some interesting and very heavy pieces.

I'm clearing a lot of my overgrown property. So other than cutting live edge cants (fence posts) from the thousands of small pine on my place, I see no immediate end in sight to my lumber needs. I look forward to seeing my log deck continue to grow.

I really like my luck in being able to trade logs with lumber with friends instead of exchanging paper.

Keep me in logs and I'm will willing to cut just about anything my neighbor wants. He'll run into logs of types I'll probably never be able to find anywhere else on my own. I have a win/win relationship for now.

I figured out prices to charge customers, and the ability to manipulate the end prices in a spread sheet, but have since decided not to look for customers and just cut my own needs as well as the needs of my neighbors.

[Arkyrick]

I retired a year ago and a typical day on my sawmill consists of me sawing a couple of logs in the morning going back into the house and trying to catch the old lady before I run out of breath! It depends on if she wants to be caught ;D I then may take a nap. After I get up I go back out to the mill and saw another 1 or 2 logs. Like I said I charge $40. per hr and sometimes trade customers 50/50 for logs I cut for them, I keep half of the lumber I cut. It works pretty good for most that have logs but no money. Heck I would even trade sawing logs for a good cow or dog or an ATV!

[WV Sawmiller]

Arkyrick,

   I am in total agreement with sawing on barter system if the customer has something I need, can use or want. I usually do not saw on shares but would for walnut or locust or such if the situation arose. I have plenty of my own timber to thin to sell or for my own use and don't generally need the logs  but each of us here on the forum has their own unique needs and desires.

   I don't need the income to make a living but I do expect my sawing to pay for itself and generate a little mad money. I charge more than some of my neighbors with small stationary mills but I am faster and will travel to their site.

[woodmills1]

I saw only by the hour. For new or one timers $70, and repeats are at $60.  No blade or set up charges when sawing at my location unless metal is hit.  I start the hourly from my house for customer locations.  That said, the last job on Friday and Sat. this week was just under 3000 bd ft pine 1 and 2by, and it cost him average of 16 cents, with him tailing all of the cut time.  I have many repeat customers, however at least 2 of them have gone on to buy a woodmizer. ;D

[Magicman]

We satisfy and cater to the market that we serve.  I just answered a call from a potential customer that is ~200 miles away.  There are closer sawmills to him, much closer, but we set a sawing date.   ;)

Even with ~$300 travel tacked to the sawing, the customer has to get value for his $$$ or it is no deal.  For example, if we saw 2Mbf of ERC for a total cost of ~$1000, that is a bargain for him. 

[woodmills1]

Here in southern NH, close to Ma., I have a wide range of customers, from affluent, to pay check to paycheck.  They all appreciate the uncomplicated way I do business.   Most of the better off tip me over the amount on the bill and many of the rest are happy with the well cut amount of wood from their logs.  Then some say things like, gee the last time I did this with someone else I thought I had more wood, or when so and so cut for me, I said, is this lumber really from my logs?

[dean herring]

X2 outer rondacker . Around here about .30/bf.
If cutting 5/8"x6" cedar boards  how do you figure bf?

[4x4American]

X2 outer rondacker . Around here about .30/bf.
If cutting 5/8"x6" cedar boards  how do you figure bf?

That's 2.5 bdft if its an 8' piece

To figger it, 5/8= .625 x 6 x 8 = 30/12= 2.5

[beenthere]

dean

If cutting 5/8"x6" cedar boards  how do you figure bf?

Usually thickness less than 4/4 is figured as 4/4 (or the surface measure). Would be 4 bdft.

[Chuck White]

Beenthere X2

That's what I've always been told, and that's what I do!   ;)

[Kbeitz]

dean

If cutting 5/8"x6" cedar boards  how do you figure bf?

Usually thickness less than 4/4 is figured as 4/4 (or the surface measure). Would be 4 bdft.

Ok.... I'm new at this....

Why ???

[Kbeitz]

Dont know why I got a double post and I dont see a way to delete it...

(Took care of it for you.  Admin). 

[Banjo picker]

Can't help you with your double post, but the reason for figuring the cost that way is because it cost just as much to make a 5/8 cut as it does a one inch cut.  Easier to do that than have a floating price that goes up for thin stuff.  I haven't done much thin, but everyone has understood when you take the time to explain it to them....ahead of time....Banjo

[Kbeitz]

Can't help you with your double post, but the reason for figuring the cost that way is because it cost just as much to make a 5/8 cut as it does a one inch cut.  Easier to do that than have a floating price that goes up for thin stuff.  I haven't done much thin, but everyone has understood when you take the time to explain it to them....ahead of time....Banjo

Thanks...

[Magicman]

Kbeitz,  Just curious, why did you feel the need to quote what Banjo said just to say -thanks- ?

[Kbeitz]

Sorry....
I'm not feeling very good at all.
Not thinking ....

Think I'm comming down with something...