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Price of logs

Started by Arkyrick, November 25, 2015, 07:28:53 PM

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Arkyrick

Hi everyone I have a WM LT15 and started advertising on the internet after I retired last year. Business is begining to come in slowly and one of the things that has happened is I get calls all the time from people wanting to sell me trees. I really dont know what most are worth or what to offer. Most are oak,cedar and some walnut. The callers want me to offer something but I usually dont realizing what size are they how hard are they to get to and move. I feel I should at least offer something but I dont know how much. Free is always nice ;D Usually the caller has called others and found most loggers are not interested because of the small amount of trees they have. I custom cut logs for customers who bring them to me but have probably passed up some good deals on Walnut etc. because I dont know what to offer. Anyone have the same problem?
Arkyrick
LT 35 hydraulic portable "73"Ford 335 tractor - lots of chains

beenthere

Don't "offer", but do tell them what you "charge" for removal.  ;D

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Question: Are you advertising for sawing business, or advertising for logs (delivered or picked up) ??
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kbeitz

The only way is to waste your time and go look at what they have.
Know what you can get for your lumber and make a low offer...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Magicman

Unless you need the logs/lumber or plan to sell lumber, you are not compelled to offer anything.  Selling un-dried green lumber is a completely different market from sawing. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WV Sawmiller

ARick,

    I'm with MM - don't buy them unless you need them. I am already generating a much larger stack of lumber than I ever wanted just from the side lumber off the logs I cut for customer's orders (I sell a little lumber from trees I am willing to thin or from salvage of dead, dying or fallen trees). It takes a lot of room to store the lumber and logs.

    Cutting ahead of time generally means you are going to have a stack of 10', 4/4 lumber and the customer is going to come want 8' or 12'  6/4 stuff.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

longtime lurker

I'm the other way to these guys, our business is about timber sales not contract sawing.

One thing I can surely guarantee you is that you can't make money selling lumber without buying logs.
Another thing I can surely guarantee you is that most people think the tree in their backyard is worth a fortune. They even throw the nails in for free.
The further you drive to look at logs the worse they are.
Most people can't use a tape measure. 30" x 40 foot logs over the telephone are usually 15 x 20 when you actually get there.
And as already mentioned, you can guarantee that the next guy who drives in always wants what you haven't got sawn.

Can't help you on specific pricing but the rule of thumb I work on is 10% of the Market value sawn is the top dollar I'll pay for decent logs, on the ground right where I can pull in and load it. We work on cubic meters so if I expect a species to make $1500 a cube sawn I'll go to $150 a cube for decent logs. That may not translate through the various BF measurement scales.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

warren46

I do not pay for logs except in very unusual circumstances and my log yard is never empty.  I have yet to turn down an order for lumber because I don't have logs to saw.
Warren E. Johnson
Timber Harvester 36HTE25, John Deere 300b backhoe/loader.

WDH

I would give my eye teeth for some walnut logs  :)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ScottInCabot

It must be an Arkiesaw thing, I get those calls and emails too.....a LOT of them.

Most tell me far too much information about how the tree is really big and been fertilized every year and how they don't really want to sell it....on and on and on.  And then the punch line about how a national timber buyer has offered them $20,000 for their prized tree, but they wanted to offer it to someone local.  Those Black Walnut trees just keep going up in price :D :D

I offer them nothing, but I do offer them the chance for me to come by and give them a quote for removal, or the name of a trusted company to remove the tree.  Then the truth comes out....the tree is really a Shortleaf Pine and is hanging over the house and powerlines, the tree removal company wanted $3,000 to remove the hazard....


There is no reason I can find to purchase logs to cut, I am busy enough cutting on the weekends for the next three months already.  And I can always get free logs in Persimmon, Locust, Maple, Cedar, White&Red Oak, etc.... to cut for making 'blanks' for my website.



Scott in Cabot
Timber framing RULES!

paul case

Arkyrick,

I started much the same as you.

I learned that I had to buy logs the same as others in my area, or else I get a bad reputation as a con for not doing the same as everyone else. We buy on the doyle scale. I give $.35 for tie logs from 12'' up and 9'. If they are real slick and 16'' x9' or 10' I give $.50 delivered to my mill of course. That is dictated by the markets I can sell the wood to. If I have to go log them and haul them in I get 50% to 60% of that money.

I have had some tell me that they can get more and I invite them to get more somewhere else. I also hear '' They are worth more for firewood'' sometimes.

I get some walnut and I only saw it when I have a call for it. The logs are sometimes worth more to the local exporter than they are to the local markets so I gather up a few and sell those logs.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

redprospector

Quote from: WDH on November 26, 2015, 07:40:45 AM
I would give my eye teeth for some walnut logs  :).

Gonna need to see a picture of them teeth before it could even be considered.  ;)
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

jmouton

   what  exactly are eye teeth  danny,,, is  it a georgia thing  should i ask  jake ,,, if there are real valuable   ill  trade ya some black walnut fur them  got plenty of it lying around ,,,



                                                                                                                        jim
lt-40 wide ,,bobcat,sterling tandem flatbed log truck,10 ton trailer, stihl 075,041,029,066,and a 2017 f-350,oh and an edger

dsgsr

Eye teeth can be a good thing, unless your tongue gets in front of them. Then you can't see what you're saying.

David
Northlander band mill
Kubota M59 TLB
Takeuchi TB175 Excavator
'08 Ford 550 dump
'87 International Dump
2015 Miller 325 Trailblazer Welder/Gen

bkaimwood

Quote from: longtime lurker on November 26, 2015, 04:26:19 AM
I'm the other way to these guys, our business is about timber sales not contract sawing.

One thing I can surely guarantee you is that you can't make money selling lumber without buying logs.
Another thing I can surely guarantee you is that most people think the tree in their backyard is worth a fortune. They even throw the nails in for free.
The further you drive to look at logs the worse they are.
Most people can't use a tape measure. 30" x 40 foot logs over the telephone are usually 15 x 20 when you actually get there.
And as already mentioned, you can guarantee that the next guy who drives in always wants what you haven't got sawn.

Can't help you on specific pricing but the rule of thumb I work on is 10% of the Market value sawn is the top dollar I'll pay for decent logs, on the ground right where I can pull in and load it. We work on cubic meters so if I expect a species to make $1500 a cube sawn I'll go to $150 a cube for decent logs. That may not translate through the various BF measurement scales.
I used to go up to 25% of final product value when buying logs, but have found myself not making money, or worse, upside down more than once...I'm trying to tune that down closer to 15%...don't know that I could buy any logs at 10%...Everyone's situation is different...
bk

longtime lurker

Quote from: bkaimwood on November 26, 2015, 07:30:49 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on November 26, 2015, 04:26:19 AM
I'm the other way to these guys, our business is about timber sales not contract sawing.

One thing I can surely guarantee you is that you can't make money selling lumber without buying logs.
Another thing I can surely guarantee you is that most people think the tree in their backyard is worth a fortune. They even throw the nails in for free.
The further you drive to look at logs the worse they are.
Most people can't use a tape measure. 30" x 40 foot logs over the telephone are usually 15 x 20 when you actually get there.
And as already mentioned, you can guarantee that the next guy who drives in always wants what you haven't got sawn.

Can't help you on specific pricing but the rule of thumb I work on is 10% of the Market value sawn is the top dollar I'll pay for decent logs, on the ground right where I can pull in and load it. We work on cubic meters so if I expect a species to make $1500 a cube sawn I'll go to $150 a cube for decent logs. That may not translate through the various BF measurement scales.
I used to go up to 25% of final product value when buying logs, but have found myself not making money, or worse, upside down more than once...I'm trying to tune that down closer to 15%...don't know that I could buy any logs at 10%...Everyone's situation is different...

Cubic Meters are a straight up volume measurement, like measuring a log in cubic feet. There is no scale built in to allow for various defects etc. It's either good enough to make a log, and that includes allowances for knots, pipe, bend deflection etc.. or it exceeds those allowances in which case it isnt a log.
We average around 38% recovery, but sometimes it can slide down around 30 for a few months straight.  Hard to make money when for every 10 ton that comes in the yard you get 7 ton of chips if you pay much for the logs.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: WDH on November 26, 2015, 07:40:45 AM
I would give my eye teeth for some walnut logs  :).

Come up to Missouri sometime. I've seen walnut split in the firewood pile. :( I think you could easily go home with a nice load of cants and finish them off there.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Magicman

I have them caving off and into the creek.   ::)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Arkyrick

Great answers I really appreciate how many people share their answers. I advertise for sawing logs but have been getting many calls for people wanting lumber and also people who want to sell their logs (trees). I usually don't offer anything but thought I might be missing the boat. I may start looking at the trees and perhaps offer something but not much, my short experience has been they usually can hardly get anyone interested in them. I have been thinking about selling large slabs for making tables and such. I think there may be a market for them, I had a guy bring a walnut log the other day that was 30" on the bottom and forked out to 42" at the top I had to turn him down because my saw cuts only up to 28".
I get a lot of calls from folks looking for wood I throw away, I answer them by telling them everything is recycled by me, cut offs are burnt in my wood burner. The only thing I give away is sawdust and most are too lazy to come and get it. :D Thanks for all the great answers!
Arkyrick
LT 35 hydraulic portable "73"Ford 335 tractor - lots of chains

ScottInCabot

Got to love those always coming by and asking for free stuff....

"You're just going to burn it? I can make a great duck call with it and sell it for at least $100.00!"
Me: "You want to sell it, great....I'll take $5 for that chunk."
"Why would I give you money for it?  I wouldn't be able to make as much money."
Me: "So I should support you? Why don't you bring your lathe here and plug it into the outlet and use my electricity too....  Better yet, I'll turn it for you and you can sit in my house and drink a few cold beers, eat my food, and watch some pay-per-view."

Unfortunately, that is a really close 'sequence of events' from someone that saw me running my mill not long ago, followed me home, and pretty much scared the crap out of me when they came around the corner of the house.  I can't really say all the 'bleep-bleep-bleep' language he threw in at the end....but I am getting use to having those type of people coming around(no I'm not).


Scott in Cabot
Timber framing RULES!

YellowHammer

I get a lot of "can I have it for free?" requests also, especially silly when folks drive up in a high dollar car or truck and try to panhandle.

So, I tell folks that I'm in business to sell lumber, not give it away, but the stuff in the scrap pile is free, actually a bonus perk, if they buy some of my retail lumber.  When people ask why they have to buy lumber and can't just have at the scrap pile for free, I tell them it's because I'm saving it for my regular customers, many of whom routinely find gold in the scrap pile. 

Surprisingly, I have cultivated many very good customers starting by them buying a minimum amount of boards, getting free scrap pieces, then coming back for more of the good stuff.   

Of course, sometimes we have folks who are truly down on their luck and I'm happy to give them some wood.  It's interesting though, the folks on hard times are generally the ones who won't ask for handouts.  It feels good to help them out.   

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Arkyrick

I had a guy call me wanting to sell me a couple of dead walnut trees that blew down. I offered him $150 and he said no way I can get a lot more than that for them they are very valuable. That was a year ago and I drove by his place  the other day and they are still there rotting away. Maybe he's ageing them ;D
LT 35 hydraulic portable "73"Ford 335 tractor - lots of chains

Peter Drouin

I get customers want cull lumber. I tell them I chip it all. :D :D One guy wanted me to save it for him. So I said ok $50 a bundle. Too much for him. :D :D
W pine here is from $.15 to .34 a BF
Hemlock is .15 to .27 a BF 
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Nomad

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 04, 2015, 01:32:34 PM

Of course, sometimes we have folks who are truly down on their luck and I'm happy to give them some wood.  It's interesting though, the folks on hard times are generally the ones who won't ask for handouts.  It feels good to help them out.

smiley_clapping smiley_thumbsup
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

longtime lurker

Sign at another mill locally: we don't have scraps, we do have offcuts. They are for sale.

We run a bin of better offcuts that suit small wood working projects, little turning blanks etc... Stuff I'd burn otherwise but there's useful timber in it if you were prepared to do the work: a couple of local woodworking clubs get the contents for free. I get annoyed at the idea that I should just give timber to any who drive in, we pay for those logs, we pay to saw them etc etc. I get guys who want free firewood all the time... I point them at the slab pile, but it's amazing how many people think that I should just give away the stuff we've actually sawn or split for firewood.

Then there was the guy in the BMW SUV, who was really upset when I told him he had to buy a whole 8' board one time when all he wanted was a foot of really figured timber out the middle for a turning blank... He must have paid attention to what I said at the end because he never came back :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

4x4American

Quote from: WDH on November 26, 2015, 07:40:45 AM
I would give my eye teeth for some walnut logs  :) .


You have an eye teeth!?  I'll trade you a half a walnut log for it?
Boy, back in my day..

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